Why are most hotel workers not Irish ?

overshoot · 30-12-2011 04:38PM

wmpdd3 wrote: »

When I worked in a hotel while at school every one was on 'Cert' training. What ever happened to that? I think those guys were getting poor money from the hotel but more money as a training allowance. Was it part of FAS?

Other than that there were a few older ladies who worked there because the hours suited them.

they are still there and on nothing to 2/3s minimum wage

there are plenty irish out there with a work ethic, its a simple case of pull your weight or your out where i am.

the problem is hotel employment hours fluctuate a lot. plus the rule where after 10hrs you are meant to get time and a half. (the government is fucking it up with this i think, it should be after 40-50hrs in the week). the reason i say this is because nealy all in my department prefered the old way of 3 long days (40hrs) and then off (and as students there is no dole)
for those that are on the dole the amount given out meants the incentive to work is only 20e or so most weeks. even if you want to work, you now have cost cutting to the extent where its a horrible environment and not worth the grief.
i took time out there and returning i could visibly see the staff giving less of a shit (foreign included). the staff leaving gone were irish and more willing to vocalise problems, the foreigners have but tend to put up with it. (and as we have come to say we arent paid to think)

the upper management priority is cost, and imagine nothing is wrong without complaints, so i ask ye to complain (to managment or by email,- the floor staff are probably already at breaking point) it isnt done enough and standards are slipping, until people are brought up on it they will keep falling!

maybe iv gone a bit off topic there but i kinda feel it does in some way all roll into each other
oh yea, one more think, foreigners also tend to speak a few languages, we speak one, its a handy think to have. im pretty sure our restaurant had at least one member of staff for every european language except portugese

Andrew33 · 30-12-2011 04:43PM

Heard a Nth Dublin restaurant owner whining that two of his staff (all his staff were non Irish) had been caught with illegal visa's and it was a nightmare. I asked why he didn't just hire Irish people and not have to deal with this sort of problem. He looked at me like I'd just grown another head.

Johnny Foreigner · 30-12-2011 04:57PM

wmpdd3 wrote: »

When I worked in a hotel while at school every one was on 'Cert' training. What ever happened to that? I think those guys were getting poor money from the hotel but more money as a training allowance. Was it part of FAS?

Other than that there were a few older ladies who worked there because the hours suited them.

The Irish Government now calls the same thing internships. Its a good way of altering the unemployed statistics in the Governments favour. We don't have 450,000 on the dole now, 100,000 of them are trainees that are in training for jobs that don't exist.
The UK Government did the same thing in the 1980's with Youth Training Schemes. They are still doing the same thing but now they call it Steps to Work, and Step Ahead. Its just as way of distorting the unemployment figures. What people want are real jobs, not these sudo jobs which are being created for an extra 50 Euro per week on top of their dole.

mikemac1 · 30-12-2011 04:57PM

wmpdd3 wrote: »

When I worked in a hotel while at school every one was on 'Cert' training. What ever happened to that? I think those guys were getting poor money from the hotel but more money as a training allowance. Was it part of FAS?

CERT was an incredible organization

Think FÁS only they were not useless and had excellent trainers with decades of experience

I did a course with them in Limerick and it was superb. I did bar management but there were others like restaurant management and then an area for chefs.
They realized that tourism was vital for Ireland and having excellent Irish staff working in the industry was a big part of it.

So if you didn't want to go to college for example you could sign up with CERT and they'd train you, pay you social welfare rates and organize job placements for you.

Or if you were long term unemployed if you showed some interest and passed an interview CERT would take you on and train you up and get you working. You keep your welfare rates and the employer would give you a topup when you were working

CERT is no more, I think it's been taken over by Fáilte Ireland these days. There was a huge training centre in Roxboro in Limerick but I'm not sure if it's still in operation

So what next? And what happened the goal of having fully trained Irish staff working in tourism sector.
Race to the bottom happened instead, greed took over and hotels wanted minimum wage staff.
Waiter or barman was once a career, now it's a McJob

gigino · 30-12-2011 06:29PM

dark crystal wrote: »

My friend manages her family's hotel and just recently advertised for a receptionists position.

She told me of all the applicants, not one was Irish.

She would love to hire Irish, but finds that very few ever show any interest in the jobs advertised and those that she does take on, even fewer actually last any length of time at all, whereas the foreign workers are always hard working and reliable.

It's a shame, because she says visitors often comment on the lack of Irish staff.

Well said and I think most employers find that. Despite the fact that there are half a million or so unemployed in our little country ( which itself is only the size of a decent city overseas ) , it is the experience of most employers that most Irish people are not as hard a workers as foreigners. If the foreigners can get work here, why not the Irish ? There are still tens of thousands of people immigrating and many of them getting jobs.

Johnny Foreigner · 30-12-2011 06:45PM

gigino wrote: »

Well said and I think most employers find that. Despite the fact that there are half a million or so unemployed in our little country ( which itself is only the size of a decent city overseas ) , it is the experience of most employers that most Irish people are not as hard a workers as foreigners. If the foreigners can get work here, why not the Irish ? There are still tens of thousands of people immigrating and many of them getting jobs.

The Celtic Tiger boom years 1994-2007 eroded the Irish work ethic. The Irish became greedy and wanted quick money. Now they have had a taste of the good times, they don't want to work for their money.

Yahew · 30-12-2011 06:51PM

Johnny Foreigner wrote: »

The Celtic Tiger boom years 1994-2007 eroded the Irish work ethic. The Irish became greedy and wanted quick money. Now they have had a taste of the good times, they don't want to work for their money.

gigino wrote: »

Well said and I think most employers find that. Despite the fact that there are half a million or so unemployed in our little country ( which itself is only the size of a decent city overseas ) , it is the experience of most employers that most Irish people are not as hard a workers as foreigners. If the foreigners can get work here, why not the Irish ? There are still tens of thousands of people immigrating and many of them getting jobs.

Nonsense, as people are emigrating to get jobs. Many going to get service jobs in london etc.

The situation is simple: Irish employers are racist towards Irish workers ( as are the Irish middle class), and they realise that they can control foreign employees more, especially in the first two years.

How come one can say that Irish workers are lazy?
The liberals would be outraged if someone said Blacks or Filipinos were lazy.
Double standard

Exactly. The only categorising of people as lazy in these threads is always the anti-Irish thing.

Yahew · 30-12-2011 06:53PM

Johnny Foreigner wrote: »

The Irish Government now calls the same thing internships. Its a good way of altering the unemployed statistics in the Governments favour. We don't have 450,000 on the dole now, 100,000 of them are trainees that are in training for jobs that don't exist.
The UK Government did the same thing in the 1980's with Youth Training Schemes. They are still doing the same thing but now they call it Steps to Work, and Step Ahead. Its just as way of distorting the unemployment figures. What people want are real jobs, not these sudo jobs which are being created for an extra 50 Euro per week on top of their dole.

Thats works for experience.

Yahew · 30-12-2011 06:56PM

gigino wrote: »

Well said and I think most employers find that. Despite the fact that there are half a million or so unemployed in our little country ( which itself is only the size of a decent city overseas ) , it is the experience of most employers that most Irish people are not as hard a workers as foreigners. If the foreigners can get work here, why not the Irish ? There are still tens of thousands of people immigrating and many of them getting jobs.

There are thousands of Irish people emigrating to get jobs. And most of the 20% now unemployed were employed during the boom. So they are workers, and probably want to work. The "hard working" foreigners are probably a synonomn for the small time employers working them like dogs.

There is a sickening Thatcherite sentiment in Ireland towards the unemployed. Remarkably it has survived a recession which has left a good amount of the people in the country non-voluntary unemployed. There are probably unemployed people here who believe that Irish people are "lazy", themselves included. Even if they worked two years ago.

gigino · 30-12-2011 07:09PM

Yahew wrote: »

There are thousands of Irish people emigrating to get jobs.

There are tens of thousands of people immigrating to get jobs here, as our minimum wage is probably the highest in the world. IU was chatting to some Polish / Latvians recently, I said what about the recession . They said " what recession ? " Being hard workers they find it easy to get work here. I was talking to one employer who employs 23 of them. He says 23 always turn up for work on Monday morning, none ever late. Some turn up 10, 20, 30 minutes early, ready to work hard. No hangovers + no sickies.

wolf moon · 30-12-2011 07:15PM

gigino wrote: »

Excellent staff, but mostly eastern European

Happy to hear that he's delighted and that the staff were excellent. I can't see any point in going any further with this thread.

UNLESS

gigino wrote: »

Excellent staff, but mostly eastern European. I'm not racist but....

gigino · 30-12-2011 07:17PM

its bad manners for u to doctor someone elses post

Yahew · 30-12-2011 07:21PM

gigino wrote: »

There are tens of thousands of people immigrating to get jobs here, as our minimum wage is probably the highest in the world. IU was chatting to some Polish / Latvians recently, I said what about the recession . They said " what recession ? " Being hard workers they find it easy to get work here. I was talking to one employer who employs 23 of them. He says 23 always turn up for work on Monday morning, none ever late. Some turn up 10, 20, 30 minutes early, ready to work hard. No hangovers + no sickies.

So your claim is that the Irish wouldn't. Sickening.

wolf moon · 30-12-2011 07:21PM

gigino wrote: »

its bad manners for u to doctor someone elses post

I don't care. As simple as that :rolleyes:

You can always report it.

mikemac1 · 30-12-2011 07:21PM

gigino wrote: »

Being hard workers they find it easy to get work here. I was talking to one employer who employs 23 of them. He says they don't know their rights or the government departments, they don't speak back or ask about minimum rest periods and that they are more easily bullied then Irish staff

gigino wrote: »

Some turn up 10, 20, 30 minutes early, ready to work hard.

Working long hours is something you do if you are a manager or on a salary.

Why would you work two and half hours a week for free when you are getting paid by the hour?

If you are paid by the hour then you get paid for the hours you work. A man willing to work for free is never idle.....
No wonder the boss loves them, they not only work for free but they are happy to do it

saa · 30-12-2011 08:31PM

Yeah so if someone comes here to work they are scum but when half* of Ireland goes abroad for work they're good chaps just trying to get by.

Yahew · 30-12-2011 08:32PM

saa wrote: »

Yeah so if someone comes here to work they are scum but when half* of Ireland goes abroad for work they're good chaps just trying to get by.

That my friend is a straw man argument. One you appear to be having with yourself.

johnr1 · 30-12-2011 08:37PM

I know little about the hospitality sector, but I know quite a lot about employing people in construction where I employed about 150 different individuals, Irish and eastern Euoropean over many years.

Irish staff plusses.
Lived locally, and knew their way around.

Could understand complex directions and instructions given over the phone, and therefore were easier to operate remotely.

Generally were better trained, had more of their own tools, and were willing to bring them to work in order to make their job easier/quicker.

Remembered the day they took two hours off to go to the dentist, on the day they had to stay late to finish something.

Eastern Euoropean staff plusses
Were more likely to be punctual, and wanted to work as many hours as possible and every Saturday at least initially.

Took far better care of company vans and tools.

Were usually cheaper to employ. During the boom, they would work a flat week for 500 pw take home as opposed to 600 for the Irish lads. These are only averages, the best and worst workers got more and less.

The Eastern Euoropean lads would do absolutely any job asked of them, - the Irish chippies at the time felt tidying up "was for polish". I did'nt agree.

I'm not going to list the negatives, but the one guy who ever came to work drunk was Polish. The two guys who stole a large amount of tools were both Irish.
The foreign lads were initially great, but work rate would often drop fairly rapidly once they saw they were needed, and also would be in looking for more money very regularly, and usually ended up making as much and more than the Irish lads. The Irish lads would never work a Saturday, but that was because they had plenty of connections and could do a nixer for more money. As soon as the foreign guys had enough connections, they were the same.
Many of the foreign guys seemed to be motivated by money only, (totally understandable) whereas some of the Irish lads saw themselves as stakeholders in the company, and its future and would act accordingly.

Of the whole lot of them, the two best employees I ever had were one Slovak, and the other an Irishman.

What I learned out of the whole process is the about one third of people are good at their jobs, and work at it as well, one third are trying hard but aren't as competent as they should be, and one third just dont give a sh1t.

Johnny Foreigner · 30-12-2011 08:47PM

saa wrote: »

Yeah so if someone comes here to work they are scum but when half* of Ireland goes abroad for work they're good chaps just trying to get by.

I would not be so quick to call yourself scum.
But who am I to argue with you?
You have a low opinion of yourself, and a lower opinion of the Irish by the sounds of it.

goat2 · 30-12-2011 08:52PM

Andrew33 wrote: »

Heard a Nth Dublin restaurant owner whining that two of his staff (all his staff were non Irish) had been caught with illegal visa's and it was a nightmare. I asked why he didn't just hire Irish people and not have to deal with this sort of problem. He looked at me like I'd just grown another head.

i think that it was his business to have people employed who were allowed to work here, did he get fined,
did he know their papers were illegal, and how can a prospective employer be certain that the papers are jenuine,

Biggins · 30-12-2011 08:53PM

johnr1 wrote: »

...What I learned out of the whole process is the about one third of people are good at their jobs, and work at it as well, one third are trying hard but aren't as competent as they should be, and one third just dont give a sh1t.

Not sure about the figures but a somewhat good summation roughly above in the last few lines.

There is also the factor that if an employer is going to treat their staff badly in low wage and/or abuse/workload, there is the higher risk that said staff will become more light-fingered at work.
I can say this with confidence having been both worker and employer at various separate times.

Johnny Foreigner · 30-12-2011 08:54PM

johnr1 wrote: »

I know little about the hospitality sector, but I know quite a lot about employing people in construction where I employed about 150 different individuals, Irish and eastern Euoropean over many years.

Irish staff plusses.
Lived locally, and knew their way around.

Could understand complex directions and instructions given over the phone, and therefore were easier to operate remotely.

Generally were better trained, had more of their own tools, and were willing to bring them to work in order to make their job easier/quicker.

Remembered the day they took two hours off to go to the dentist, on the day they had to stay late to finish something.

Eastern Euoropean staff plusses
Were more likely to be punctual, and wanted to work as many hours as possible and every Saturday at least initially.

Took far better care of company vans and tools.

Were usually cheaper to employ. During the boom, they would work a flat week for 500 pw take home as opposed to 600 for the Irish lads. These are only averages, the best and worst workers got more and less.

The Eastern Euoropean lads would do absolutely any job asked of them, - the Irish chippies at the time felt tidying up "was for polish". I did'nt agree.

I'm not going to list the negatives, but the one guy who ever came to work drunk was Polish. The two guys who stole a large amount of tools were both Irish.
The foreign lads were initially great, but work rate would often drop fairly rapidly once they saw they were needed, and also would be in looking for more money very regularly, and usually ended up making as much and more than the Irish lads. The Irish lads would never work a Saturday, but that was because they had plenty of connections and could do a nixer for more money. As soon as the foreign guys had enough connections, they were the same.
Many of the foreign guys seemed to be motivated by money only, (totally understandable) whereas some of the Irish lads saw themselves as stakeholders in the company, and its future and would act accordingly.

Of the whole lot of them, the two best employees I ever had were one Slovak, and the other an Irishman.

What I learned out of the whole process is the about one third of people are good at their jobs, and work at it as well, one third are trying hard but aren't as competent as they should be, and one third just dont give a sh1t.

Interesting reading, and I would say typical of the Celtic Tiger boom years.
Were you ever offered money in exchange for employment when hiring?

gigino · 30-12-2011 08:56PM

mikemac1 wrote: »

No wonder the boss loves them, they not only work for free but they are happy to do it

They did not work for free. They work hard, do not take sickies, are not late for work and do not want to spend half the day chating at work. Hence they are employed.

woodoo · 30-12-2011 08:58PM

gigino wrote: »

They did not work for free. They work hard, do not take sickies, are not late for work and do not want to spend half the day chating at work. Hence they are employed.

What line of work are you in yourself gigino?

Takeabath · 30-12-2011 09:01PM

I asked my uncle who runs a group of hotels why nearly all his staff were eastern European. His answer? They work harder and have a better attitude! He also said that it would take one polish lad half the time to do something that 3 Irish lads what do for triple the cost. He now gets eastern Europeans to do anything from works on his kitchen to services on his car. My brother on his advise had an extension built on his house by some polish builders it was thousands of euros cheaper and done weeks earlier than the Irish builder quote. Can't beat value for money and hotels agree

gigino · 30-12-2011 09:01PM

woodoo wrote: »

What line of work are you in yourself gigino?

noyb

tina turner · 30-12-2011 09:02PM

Johnny Foreigner wrote: »

I am going to enlighten you all with the truth.
I worked for 10 years in Hotel Management so I feel I am in a position to comment on the above.
During the Celtic Tiger boom years 1994-2007 many Eastern Europeans came to Ireland. They brought in a corrupt working practice of buying their way into jobs. I had a Latvian woman apply for a job in my hotel, she offered me 365 Euro (her first weeks wages) to buy her way into the job. When I refused, and asked her why she did that? She explained that in Latvia this was the normal way you got a job. You paid the boss for your job. Her first job when she came to Ireland was in a meat factory, she had paid the Manager her first weeks wages to get the job. The factory was full of Eastern Europeans who had done the same. This culture of corruption, buying your way into jobs spread throughout the hotel industry during the Celtic Tiger. What you have to realise is this; an Irish employee would not buy their way into a job, as it is corrupt. But many Eastern Europeans thought this was normal, and so they got employed as a result. The Latvian applicant I interviewed in the Hotel I managed explained that when she left the meat factory, she would sell her job for a weeks wages to another Latvian; so she would get her money back. This is the way it works in Ireland she explained.

Are you serious?? been working here for over 10 years (5 hotels, few bars, other places), NEVER did I pay a single penny for getting a job, every single of my employers was very fair and respectful of my rights (of which I-as a foreigner- am aware of) and I always got payed for every single week worked in the place, INCLUDING the first week. Gotta love Eire as I am honestly not sure of "norm" in my own country.

Don't believe everything you hear hun.

Rant over.

RainbowRose81 · 30-12-2011 09:07PM

Well I don't understand why anyone foreign or Irish who has a degree or a higher qualification would want to stay here and slave away in a restuarant/hotel for minimum wage when they can leave and go to where there are jobs they want to do and where they are progress from! If don't really need a leaving cert or a qualification to work in the majority of resturant/hotel jobs apart from the professional jobs like chefs and managers.

woodoo · 30-12-2011 09:10PM

gigino wrote: »

noyb

I think you are a man of leisure at the states expense

Johnny Foreigner · 30-12-2011 09:11PM

tina turner wrote: »

Are you serious?? been working here for over 10 years (5 hotels, few bars, other places), NEVER did I pay a single penny for getting a job, every single of my employers was very fair and respectful of my rights (of which I-as a foreigner- am aware of) and I always got payed for every single week worked in the place, INCLUDING the first week. Gotta love Eire as I am honestly not sure of "norm" in my own country.

Don't believe everything you hear hun.

Rant over.

Yes, I am serious. It actually happened.
You have been in Ireland 10 years and you call it Eire?
Eire is not in the English language.
We call our country the Republic of Ireland, or simply; Ireland.
I suppose you call the UK the mainland?

Why are most hotel workers not Irish ?

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