Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

argosy2006 · 27-12-2011 02:16AM

We need more chicks on the bench!

K-9 · 27-12-2011 02:16AM

Kirby wrote: »

I meant financial backing and sizeable fanbase....but I think you knew that and just wanted to make a dig at some boardsies. Which is fine.

It's frustrating seeing near Hodgson levels of disgust at Kenny. I know it's Boxing night and all that.

For all we know 5th might turn out a reasonable position considering everything. Did anybody think Spurs would be where they are and Chelsea where they are at? Spurs can't sustain that form over the next couple of seasons and God knows where Chelsea and Arsenal will be at!

4th was the target, we mightn't get it. Some thought 4th was realistic last season so that gives an idea of the delusions of grandeur of a large element of the fanbase.

The jigsaw is close to being completed, Carroll and Suarez mightn't fit. Support the players, no fun in a fair weather supporter.

daithijjj · 27-12-2011 02:18AM

Kirby wrote: »

I fixed your post there.

Your point was a valid enough one in that rome wasn't built in a day and that it takes money.......... but the time and money didn't make City 4th. The City squad is the best this season and was the best last season....they just underachieved.

All that money made them the best. Liverpool don't need the best. They need 4th best. And spending a third of the city money looks like its going to get them 6th. If you spend big and waste it.......Thats Aston Villa territory tbh.

Liverpool have the backing and fanbase to make it. They just need to spend better.

You just proved the point i was making though with the bit thats highlighted??.

They had the most money and fired it everywhere and still underachieved. And what is more, is that for all this money they are still not 'the best' team in the league. They havent proved anything. Arsenal should have won the league last year and blew it, City havent won it yet.

They still have to overcome the business model of their neighbours, that is built up over time, the foundations first and a collective will to get you over the line.

eagle eye · 27-12-2011 02:23AM

I notice you never responded to my post Paully D.

michael999999 · 27-12-2011 02:30AM

eagle eye wrote: »

I notice you never responded to my post Paully D.

Were still waiting for hes earth shattering "ITK" revelations about Henderson that he was going to break to us from a few months back!

Ferris_Bueller · 27-12-2011 03:31AM

I probably aren't half as much of a Liverpool fan as most who post in this thread, so maybe I find it easier to be critical, but I do follow the club and have watched a lot of their games this season and in previous years. But I cannot believe some of the stuff some of you are coming out with. But according to that transfer league website, we have net spent about £68m since 2007, and for us to currently be 6th is an embarrassment. Arsenal have GAINED about £32, Spurs and United have only spent about £52m and then City and Chelsea have spent a lot of money as you all know (Chelsea £148m, City £439m). Now in 2006/07 an 2007/08 we finished 3rd and 4th respectively. Having spent the 3rd most in the league, how have we dropped so far behind? Argument can be applied for Chelsea too, have who dropped similarly to ourselves, but just because they have too doesn't make it acceptable. No matter how people phrase how much we have spent, we should be doing a hell of a lot better than we currently are, and have been last season and the season before.

Kenny has wasted money completely on average players, Enrique, Suarez and Bellamy could all be classed as good, Adam as neutral, but Henderson, Downing, Carroll have been very poor so far and between the 3 have cost at least £70m, the sale of Meireles has to be considered poor business too. Has Kenny really been a success so far? Better than Hodgson, but with the waste he has signed and our current league position tell another story. You can blame the woodwork or good goalkeeping as much as you like, but that happens to every team every season to a certain degree, we have not been good enough the past 3 years, under any manager.

Personally I would kind of agree with Paully D, Kenny seems to be immune to any abuse for some reason due to his legendary status with the club, but I cannot see why, having spent what he has and achieving what he has. Signing these players due to the home grown rule can't be used as an excuse really, AFAIK all you need is 8 HG players in your 25 man squad, not match day squad, and if that is the case we would have already had Gerrard, Carragher, Johnson, Kelly, Flanagan, Shelvey, Spearing in it without having signed 2 of Carroll, Henderson and Downing, they have just been poor signings and proof that buying English does not work anymore.

Why have clubs like Spurs and United spent less yet at minimum consolidated their league position, then Arsenal who have spent a considerable amount less, haven't dropped as badly as we have. Fans go on about laying foundations or starting from the bottom up, but we are not Stoke City or West Brom, we had the foundations and more, yet we completely blew it and have never looked like rebuilding since. To me, some arguments seem absolutely crazy and completely biased, which is a shame as I know many posters on here are fantastic fans. Could go on about it all night, but am a bit drunk (as you can probably tell) and don't want to regret too much in the morning!

But bottom line is, Liverpool are not as good as they should be, and this is down to the players and the management - no excuses.

shangri la · 27-12-2011 03:44AM

Ferris,

Are those figures just transfer fees or do they include wages, agent fees, ect.

I thought Henry was a businessman who invested for a return. Why would anyone buy a football team as an investment if a club with a fanbase like liverpools is bleeding money.

It takes the enjoyment out of being a fan when the only solution is to buy better mercenaries who make it feel like a business rather than something I am supposed to be passionate about.

and ffs 1 goal at home against the worst defense in the league!

Kirby · 27-12-2011 04:10AM

daithijjj wrote: »

You just proved the point i was making though with the bit thats highlighted??.

They had the most money and fired it everywhere and still underachieved. And what is more, is that for all this money they are still not 'the best' team in the league. They havent proved anything. Arsenal should have won the league last year and blew it, City havent won it yet.

They still have to overcome the business model of their neighbours, that is built up over time, the foundations first and a collective will to get you over the line.

Firstly, City don't have to overcome any business model. You only need a business model if you operate as a business. City have limitless money and the objective isn't to make money like United or Liverpool, the sole objective is to win everything and raise the status of the owners.

Secondly, I agreed with your post but posted a reply because I thought your assertation that 300 million 'only' buys fourth was a bit disingenuous.

I would contend it took 300million for City to build the best squad in the league. Which I believe the vast majority of footballing people would agree with.

If they don't win anything its down to the manager or system or players not performing etc. If liverpool finished ahead of them they would have overachieved and City underachieved.....because City's team is clearly better. Ergo the money bought them a better team, not positions in a table.

Jesus Wept · 27-12-2011 04:33AM

Paully D wrote: »

Amazing how a manager who has spent over £105m on players since his time in charge and who has failed to beat the likes of Sunderland, Norwich, Swansea and Blackburn at home

Paully D wrote: »

I'd say it'd be more along the lines of the owners saying:

''We've given you over £105m with the majority of that spent a few months ago. You can work with what you have (which should be more than enough) for now''.

noodler wrote: »

Precisely right.

I wouldn't be very receptive if Kenny came to me looking for more transfer funds (if I were the appropriate person).

Paully D wrote: »

How much do you want to throw at getting into the top 4?

Over £105m spent during the Dalglish reign

I look upon people who wilfully ignore player sales the same as I look upon people who consider the earth flat/deny evolution/gravity - complete head the balls.

It nothing short of utterly redundant and a straw man.
Let's keep the discussion based in reality and argue point from there.

Lemlin wrote: »

Liverpool have huge problems when they can't score more than one against Blackburn. Only one of the first choice back four and 'keeper playing today as well in a team that have conceded 39 goals in 18 games.

Not to take away from the fact that we weren't good enough or clinical enough today - but the average scored against Blackburn is just over 2 goals per game, we scored one, we were a gee hair away from that second goal on a few occasions.

Super-Rush · 27-12-2011 04:36AM

4 points off a champions league place.

Crisis eh?

daithijjj · 27-12-2011 05:17AM

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

I probably aren't half as much of a Liverpool fan as most who post in this thread, so maybe I find it easier to be critical, but I do follow the club and have watched a lot of their games this season and in previous years. But I cannot believe some of the stuff some of you are coming out with. But according to that transfer league website, we have net spent about £68m since 2007, and for us to currently be 6th is an embarrassment. Arsenal have GAINED about £32, Spurs and United have only spent about £52m and then City and Chelsea have spent a lot of money as you all know (Chelsea £148m, City £439m). Now in 2006/07 an 2007/08 we finished 3rd and 4th respectively. Having spent the 3rd most in the league, how have we dropped so far behind? Argument can be applied for Chelsea too, have who dropped similarly to ourselves, but just because they have too doesn't make it acceptable. No matter how people phrase how much we have spent, we should be doing a hell of a lot better than we currently are, and have been last season and the season before.

Kenny has wasted money completely on average players, Enrique, Suarez and Bellamy could all be classed as good, Adam as neutral, but Henderson, Downing, Carroll have been very poor so far and between the 3 have cost at least £70m, the sale of Meireles has to be considered poor business too. Has Kenny really been a success so far? Better than Hodgson, but with the waste he has signed and our current league position tell another story. You can blame the woodwork or good goalkeeping as much as you like, but that happens to every team every season to a certain degree, we have not been good enough the past 3 years, under any manager.

Personally I would kind of agree with Paully D, Kenny seems to be immune to any abuse for some reason due to his legendary status with the club, but I cannot see why, having spent what he has and achieving what he has. Signing these players due to the home grown rule can't be used as an excuse really, AFAIK all you need is 8 HG players in your 25 man squad, not match day squad, and if that is the case we would have already had Gerrard, Carragher, Johnson, Kelly, Flanagan, Shelvey, Spearing in it without having signed 2 of Carroll, Henderson and Downing, they have just been poor signings and proof that buying English does not work anymore.

Why have clubs like Spurs and United spent less yet at minimum consolidated their league position, then Arsenal who have spent a considerable amount less, haven't dropped as badly as we have. Fans go on about laying foundations or starting from the bottom up, but we are not Stoke City or West Brom, we had the foundations and more, yet we completely blew it and have never looked like rebuilding since. To me, some arguments seem absolutely crazy and completely biased, which is a shame as I know many posters on here are fantastic fans. Could go on about it all night, but am a bit drunk (as you can probably tell) and don't want to regret too much in the morning!

But bottom line is, Liverpool are not as good as they should be, and this is down to the players and the management - no excuses.

Its far too late now for me to make a proper reply, save to say, when united were spending 30 mil on players, our record transfers were less than half that. United built a foundation and added to it over time, not re hauled the whole thing in one year. Recouping 80mil on one player also doesnt happen very often. And the whole thing is a bit disingenous anyway as all of that money was spent this year by LFC, it will take 5 years of gradual investemnt to build a foundation.

Kenny doesnt have a free pass, he will live and die by his decisions from me the same way i judged Benitez.

daithijjj · 27-12-2011 05:29AM

Kirby wrote: »

Firstly, City don't have to overcome any business model. You only need a business model if you operate as a business. City have limitless money and the objective isn't to make money like United or Liverpool, the sole objective is to win everything and raise the status of the owners.

Secondly, I agreed with your post but posted a reply because I thought your assertation that 300 million 'only' buys fourth was a bit disingenuous.

I would contend it took 300million for City to build the best squad in the league. Which I believe the vast majority of footballing people would agree with.

If they don't win anything its down to the manager or system or players not performing etc. If liverpool finished ahead of them they would have overachieved and City underachieved.....because City's team is clearly better. Ergo the money bought them a better team, not positions in a table.

They do have to adhere to the FFPR which are now in place or face penalties. Granted, they will not be subject to penalties for another couple of years or anyone else but as of now any moves made are included.

Well ok, tell me what a fair price is for 4th then?, it doesnt work like that, we both know this. Essentially, anyone could buy a club put 100 mil every year in for 3 years and do what city have done. Blackburn Rovers did it, accounting for inflation of figures.

Super-Rush · 27-12-2011 05:51AM

The power in this one is strong.

J. Marston · 27-12-2011 06:02AM

I think someone has had one too many bottles of Smirnoff Ice. Sleep it off, poor crayture.

Kirby · 27-12-2011 06:14AM

daithijjj wrote: »

They do have to adhere to the FFPR which are now in place or face penalties. Granted, they will not be subject to penalties for another couple of years or anyone else but as of now any moves made are included.

Well ok, tell me what a fair price is for 4th then?, it doesnt work like that, we both know this. Essentially, anyone could buy a club put 100 mil every year in for 3 years and do what city have done. Blackburn Rovers did it, accounting for inflation of figures.

Financial fair play is a good and fair idea. But in reality its complete codswallop. No decent premier league team will ever adhere to it for two reasons.

Firstly, FIFA and UEFA need the elite clubs more than the clubs need them. If it came down to it, an uprising of sorts would happen and a new league/body would be formed. The lesser clubs would follow because thats where the money is. The money comes from people watching football. Fans don't watch politicians. The clubs have the ultimate power and they know it. You only have to look at the formation of the premier league.

Because of this, the governing body can't come down to hard on any team to break it for fear of backlash. Therefore they won't risk it.

Secondly, it's too easy to flout. Football is subjective. "Andy Carroll is worth 10 millions." "I think he's worth the 35 million!" If a club like chelsea, United, City, Barca, Real etc needed to bring in a new player, they get their buddies from other clubs to come in and buy an average clunker for 30 million. Problem solved. And how would you punish that? A club would be willing to pay it.

The same applies to sponsorship. You only have to look at the recent City sponsorship deal to see exactly what they did there.

Finally, even IF the rules were adhered to and IF strict punishments came in do you know what would happen? The clubs would move toward a trade system similar to what they do in America. Trades and swaps are rare in football but we would see alot of them if FIFA cracked down hard. Because value is subjective. Ronaldo traded for Wes Brown etc. Ridiculous example but I used it to illustrate my point.

Because of these factors, FFP is nothing but a token gesture. It's a pity, but thats life. Personally I think time and money would be better spent stamping out the diving and play acting culture that exists all over the world.

Intentionally deny a goal scoring opportunity? Three match ban
Intentionally cheat to try and create a goal scoring opportunity? Yellow card.

Thats fair.............

amacachi · 27-12-2011 07:20AM

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

That Torres\Carroll swap is cursed and weighed down both our clubs.
If only we could both cut our losses and start afresh eh?!

Cut your losses? Sure yous made 15million on it I've been told! :pac:

argosy2006 wrote: »

Who ever spends best in January will get 4th, Only one place up for grabs, its between Liverpool Chelsea and Arsenal

Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal for 4th, 5th and 6th I think, can't see Chelsea staying in their funk much longer.

Leiva · 27-12-2011 09:22AM

Nah dress up the Carroll issue all yous want but to me he is quickly becoming deadwood , along with his pal Charlie ..

Yes Carroll needs a spell of starts in games but I can see that only producing one thing and that's the eye opener people will need to see the massive mistake made in purchasing a player who had a eight month purple patch in the EPL.
I said it from the start (and hoped to God I was wrong) but Andy Carroll will never be the beast of a player we all hoped .
His first touch is terrible , his control and movement is labored , and everything looks like it has to go through many levels thought , nothing is quick or responsive , it's slow and sloppy.

Charlie "Hollywood pass" Adam is a player too good for Blackpool but not good enough for a top 4 .
His level is somewhere around Villa or similar .
Without Lucas at his side we are now seeing his limited abilities .

Downing is so predictable its laughable . I can count on one hand the amount of players he has beaten , and any defender worth a start in the EPL would have him sussed in minutes .
Show him the inside , wait till he come in and then let him balloon the ball four foot over the bar from close range .
His stats are ridiculous low and that's not even related to our poor finishing.
The fella looks and plays like his heart is no longer in the game .

Fact of the matter is we will never win anything with a starting 11 which has Carroll , Adam , Downing in the squad ... And that's close to £60million spent right there.

Time to call a spade a spade and if there is not much funds available for transfers in Jan it won't be the owners I will be questioning.

The deadwood has re-risen but this times it's very expensive .

sundula · 27-12-2011 09:23AM

Elephant in the room is Dalglish. The owner should have been braver and brought in someone who was modern, progressive and could work with Comolli and the transfer policy. Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City, Man U and Spurs are clubs all ahead of Liverpool. Luckly for Kenny Villa and Everton have gone backward and Newcastle wont last the pace, Stoke are just hard working and Bruce blew Sunderlands season.

slingerz · 27-12-2011 09:38AM

Who are half these posters in the Liverpool thread this last 24 hours?!

niallo27 · 27-12-2011 10:53AM

El Pistolero wrote: »

4 points off a champions league place.

Crisis eh?

It's only 3pts, only 4pts off third. United and city are breaking records at the top for points hauls so far.

K-9 · 27-12-2011 11:03AM

The Net Spend argument was always pretty stupid, its particularly thick saying we spent €68 Million since 2007. Monumentally stupid actually, no nice way to put it.

skydish79 · 27-12-2011 11:23AM

Centre midfield is a big problem.

whatever midfielder playing there - their first thought isnt to turn on the ball and move forward its either a pass back to the defender, pass across or pointing fingers

Would go with midfield of

Kuyt Spearing Henderrson Downing
Gerrard
Suarez

Adam is too inconsistent and lacks stamina - often trailing in an opponents wake.

Not sure which player will become available in the summer but we need to get a decent centre midfielder in

Missing the fluid football from the end of last season

Still giving all points dropped at home we gotta be thankful we are only 3 points behind fourth

Patsy fyre · 27-12-2011 11:42AM

14 points behind us already fellez
how does that make ye feel?

mike65 · 27-12-2011 11:47AM

Patsy fyre wrote: »

14 points behind us already fellez
how does that make ye feel?

The important question is clearly how smug does it make you feel?

Leiva · 27-12-2011 11:47AM

Patsy fyre wrote: »

14 points behind us already fellez
how does that make ye feel?

Bit like a Patsy .

Concur ?

mike65 · 27-12-2011 11:54AM

El Pistolero wrote: »

4 points off a champions league place.

Crisis eh?

That's the worst sort of reaction tbh. 4 points might as well be 40 given the way the team are playing in the attacking half of the pitch. Newcastle will not loose and may well win on Friday. How many will Utd knock past Rovers on Saturday? I guess we can just be thankful Chelsea are pretty clueless in attack as well, that may change. Will Liverpool?

Dublin_Gunner · 27-12-2011 11:58AM

Patsy fyre wrote: »

14 points behind us already fellez
how does that make ye feel?

1. Who are you?
2. Do we really care? no.
3. Pretty sure you have your own thread to be smug in.

Patsy fyre · 27-12-2011 12:00PM

mike65 wrote: »

Patsy fyre wrote: »

14 points behind us already fellez
how does that make ye feel?

The important question is clearly how smug does it make you feel?

The thought of Liverpool disappearing into mid table mediocrity quite excites me to be honest!

Handsome Bob · 27-12-2011 12:01PM

J. Marston wrote: »

I think someone has had one too many bottles of Smirnoff Ice. Sleep it off, poor crayture.

Smirnoff Ice? It doesn't take much does it. :pac:

PHB · 27-12-2011 12:04PM

Strikers missing chances shouldn't worry you. It's when strikers stop creating chances if when you should really start to worry. That's where Torres was, and is trying to get back to missing chances!

Carroll still gets in a lot of great positions, and at some point, it'll just click imo. 22, fantastic, fantastic lead the line striker, with very impressive arial ability and an eye for goal. Personally, I think it's good for him that Suarez is going to be out so long. Just put your faith in him, and in time, I think he'll deliver.

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

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