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Denver Broncos Thread

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Thanks to the user who took the time to report the repost rather than bicker like the rest.

    Hint, hint, and all that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭Stev_o


    Joking aside, it's got that mad that my aul fella (who generally can't understand American football nor tolerate it) was asking about Tebow after reading about it in the paper.

    I'm not saying Tebow is god's gift to the NFL right now but he's really raising the profile of the league and the sport in places it wouldn't normally reach and that's a good thing.

    What paper was it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 719 ✭✭✭neilster


    Difference is Matt Ryan and Andy Dalton have both shown they can far greater ability in the pocket than Tebow. Tebow has still shown very little to suggest he can be an even average nfl quarterback. If Tebow comes up next season and the Broncos have a losing record he's done in Denver. Cassell has proved he can get the job done according to that criteria of just winning but chances are he'll be replaced with thchiefs if they have any desires to go to the play-offs. Rex Grossman brought the Bears to a superbowl and he's one of the last people you'd want as your teams quarterback. Vince Young is the God of 4th quarter comebacks and game winning drives and no one wants him as their starting QB.

    If Tebow gets an -season under his belt and ends up being average than he'll struggle to keep hold of his job.

    I have to admit that i have hated Tebow as much or more than the next guy and i am with Jake Plummer on the religious stuff...too overt but i would have to admit he seems like a good kid doing good things off the field but the guys at www.coldhardfootballfacts.com get it very well on hime. Maybe there theories go out the window without a dominant defense but they say

    he rarely turns over the ball (he is close to the top of the league in this stat) and his yards per attempt is awesomely high . This negates his completion percentage on passing but keeps him in the top tier on QB passer rating . If Elway can bring him further and make him a passable passer these key stats would put him into the franchise QB territory


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,149 Mod ✭✭✭✭bruschi


    had a nightmare in Buffalo, 4 picks and a couple ran in for scores as well. with the raiders winning, it will be a tough game against Kansas now for Denver to take the AFC west. Orton nearly lead Kansas to a late win, but for a blocked field goal on the last play.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,299 ✭✭✭spiralism


    It all comes down to this so. Tebow v Orton, playoffs on the line for us. God ****ing help us. To say i would bet everything i'd own on Orton getting one over us wouldnt be an overstatement. This team is a useless shower of bottling cúnts.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    It's nearly a shame the chiefs didn't win to make it an Orton vs Tebow winner takes all final game showdown.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,658 ✭✭✭✭Peyton Manning


    It's nearly a shame the chiefs didn't win to make it an Orton vs Tebow winner takes all final game showdown.

    Orton can still knock Tebow out if other results go their way (I think as long as the Raiders win)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,150 ✭✭✭Morrisseeee


    neilster wrote: »
    he rarely turns over the ball (he is close to the top of the league in this stat) and his yards per attempt is awesomely high .

    Yikes, it's ALL your fault neilster :pac:
    Have faith spiralism, ............believe ;):eek::confused::cool:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    Orton can still knock Tebow out if other results go their way (I think as long as the Raiders win)


    I know, but if chiefs won it would have been a straight fight with Denver and Chiefs for the division title.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭Stev_o


    So Tebow either wins close or looses hard.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,966 ✭✭✭Syferus


    Stev_o wrote: »
    So Tebow either wins close or looses hard.

    Not really. He did fine against NE last weekend, the defense let the side down by giving up 41 points.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭Stev_o


    Syferus wrote: »
    Not really. He did fine against NE last weekend, the defense let the side down by giving up 41 points.

    I mean more on score rather then performance


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,966 ✭✭✭Syferus


    Stev_o wrote: »
    I mean more on score rather then performance

    Well on that count you're right, but this is a team that's young in most skill positions so large variance in performance is natural.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,299 ✭✭✭spiralism


    He's a bit Eli Manning i think. Eli is really clutch and a fine QB but he does have a couple of days where he's ****ing shocking and throws a rake of picks. End of the day though, you'd take him down 4 with 2 mins left.

    Bit raging its not winner take all, but only thing is it means (hopefully) that the NEED for us to win will outweigh their playing for pride in the final game. Last couple of times that's happened we choked, this can show what this team is made of. I'm really worried though, Orton has cost us 20 odd games over the fast few years, another would be no surprise :pac:

    Chargers are going to lose and Oakland won. If we won, all it would have meant with Oakland winning would be that SD and Kansas would be out of the running and it would become a two horse race. That's happened anyways. Down to the wire. We all were saying that SD @ OAK could decide the AFC West in week 17, but not like this!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭tallaghtoutlaws


    Syferus wrote: »
    Not really. He did fine against NE last weekend, the defense let the side down by giving up 41 points.

    He did fine? The Pats defense gave up easy yards to Denver and it was their running ability that nearly beat the Pats not their ability at QB. When asked to be a proper QB and get the game back he couldn't do it. Under pressure he couldn't get going and there was no 4th quarter miraculous comeback as the game was over. Same with the Bills game.

    As for the Broncos defense getting the blame. When they are on the field so long trying to hold one of the best QBs in the league at bay it was never going to be easy. The minute the Pats adjusted to Denver's offense it was going to be down to Their defense to hold off Brady and you can hardly blame them. Tom Brady will bury you just like he did with the Dolphins if you give him time. The Teams that have beaten the Pats this season were relentless in stopping Brady and making sure to close off all his options.

    Tebow fumbled twice, one he was lucky to fall on and was sacked 4 times and one of them was a loss for 20+ yards as unlike a real NFL QB who would have thrown it away once they left the box Tebow decided to keep running backwards.

    Buffalo then showed us on Saturday that Tebow and the Broncos have a lot of work to do and his passing was horrendous. As I keep saying the Broncos have to fix his passing. This excuse of "Oh its fine" is not going to wash for much longer. If 2 of the Worst defenses in the league can shut you down offensively you have obvious issues. Just watch the highlights of the Bills game and if you know football you can see how long it took him to release the ball and the bad decisions made when it took him so long. Also his accuracy doesn't look so awesome anymore when he actually has to throw in to coverage. Far cry from the wide open Receivers he was used to weeks previous.

    As for Kyle Orton. So unlucky this week not to get a win. Blocked field goal and then an overtime loss. Out of his control. And coming off the back of the win against Green Bay.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,966 ✭✭✭Syferus


    Who has said his passing doesn't need work, Tallaght?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭poldebruin


    It's clear, at this point, that Orton is a better passer, and Tebow is better at ....something, not sure I would call it quarterbacking at this point, but he does seem to be a good leader of the team.

    He has a winning record with the same group Orton could do nothing but lose with the previous 21 games.
    and was sacked 4 times and one of them was a loss for 20+ yards as unlike a real NFL QB who would have thrown it away once they left the box Tebow decided to keep running backwards.

    This particular play is why I prefer Tebow over Orton. I saw Orton in this very poistion do as you suggest, but the point was, it was 4th down in the fourth quarter, he couldn't throw it away - he was better off retreating to see if anything opened up. In fact the only thing he did wrong, IMO, was that he didn't throw it up for grabs or fumble on purpose to give the team a chance to make the first.
    As for Kyle Orton. So unlucky this week not to get a win. Blocked field goal and then an overtime loss. Out of his control. And coming off the back of the win against Green Bay.


    ...no argument that KC and Orton had great games against GB, but the Raiders loss was not unlucky for Orton, he had more than a hand in the defeat with two costly ints and failing time and again in the redzone, in fact, that game epitimises Orton for me, fine between the 20's and in the 1st thru 3rd quarters, but below average at the end of the game and in the redzone.

    The Tebow hype is totally over the top, but we will have to wait until next year to discover if he has a future in Denver as a QB (or in Miami/Jax if they decide to trade him)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭tallaghtoutlaws


    Syferus wrote: »
    Who has said his passing doesn't need work, Tallaght?

    I never said no one didn't for fooks sake. Once again with contradicting nonsense. The fact of the matter is Denver fans are wetting themselves with Tebow hype and saying "Oh he doesn't turn the ball over" and trying to tell themselves his passing is "better" because of this when it clearly hasn't changed since day 1 of this season.

    The simple fact the above was my opinion of the chap and until he fixes the passing he will never be a good NFL QB. It is that simple. If people still want to buy into this comeback nonsense and this well he drives others on nonsense, so be it but as the Pats and Bills games show you need more than just being a leader to win games and when your best asset of running is shut down and you cant pass properly well the jig will be up. As I said from day 1 about him. Teams have found him out and more teams will continue to do so.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭tallaghtoutlaws


    poldebruin wrote: »
    It's clear, at this point, that Orton is a better passer, and Tebow is better at ....something, not sure I would call it quarterbacking at this point, but he does seem to be a good leader of the team.

    Yeah the good leadership has shown to be effective against two teams who shut his best assets down.
    He has a winning record with the same group Orton could do nothing but lose with the previous 21 games.

    Different systems have allowed Denver play and make teams over commit. The old system forced Orton to throw more than 30 times a games and put the ball on the ground a lot less. And last time I checked Kyle Orton doesn't play on Defense where was the defense for all 21 of those games? Can you blame an offensive leader for not firing up a defense? No you can't. Sure Tebow seems to have lit a spark in their asses but blaming 21 losses on Orton is Pathetic.


    This particular play is why I prefer Tebow over Orton. I saw Orton in this very poistion do as you suggest, but the point was, it was 4th down in the fourth quarter, he couldn't throw it away - he was better off retreating to see if anything opened up. In fact the only thing he did wrong, IMO, was that he didn't throw it up for grabs or fumble on purpose to give the team a chance to make the first.

    Ah here that is just plain silly. You would rather a QB hold on to the ball losing 20+ yards even though he is out of the box and can throw it out of bounds to kill the play? Yeah ok makes sense.



    ...no argument that KC and Orton had great games against GB, but the Raiders loss was not unlucky for Orton, he had more than a hand in the defeat with two costly ints and failing time and again in the redzone, in fact, that game epitimises Orton for me, fine between the 20's and in the 1st thru 3rd quarters, but below average at the end of the game and in the redzone.

    Sure Orton had 2 ints but he drove his offense on to level the game for fook sake. Tebow does the same thing and is god, its mad how people now judge QBs over things like this when the one QB eggs a team on to get a win or get back in the game he is God and if the other does it they criticise 2 ints he had in the game. In fact Orton put them in position to win the game on the last drive but they missed a 49 yard field goal. Oh but that doesn't count does it? Nope he aint Tebow. This Tebow versus other QB logic is ridiculous.

    Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers have all lost games in their time that they were unlucky to lose after loses where they brought a game back only to lose. And I can guarantee you all of them involved interceptions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭poldebruin


    ....it's definitely not plain silly. It was absolutely the right thing to do. He throws it away and the game is over, you are better off seeing if you get lucky.

    I didn't say Orton was to blame, I just said he lost a lot in the previous 21 games with the same group of players. They lost as a team and Orton was their QB at the time.

    Orton put them in position to win near the end, but they could have been out of sight before then.

    I like Orton, but I don't think he was the answer at Denver, and he got a fair shake there before they released him.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,299 ✭✭✭spiralism


    poldebruin wrote: »
    ....it's definitely not plain silly. It was absolutely the right thing to do. He throws it away and the game is over, you are better off seeing if you get lucky.

    I didn't say Orton was to blame, I just said he lost a lot in the previous 21 games with the same group of players. They lost as a team and Orton was their QB at the time.

    Orton put them in position to win near the end, but they could have been out of sight before then.

    I like Orton, but I don't think he was the answer at Denver, and he got a fair shake there before they released him.

    QFT

    one player was an average passer and not clutch at all, a poor leader and lazy while the other is an average passer but a great leader who is clutch and hardworking. Give me Tebow any day. One bad game does not a player make, we learned nothing new against buffalo, i.e. that if he gets into too deep a hole he'll try force the issue and it has the potential to backfire like it did


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    Average passer is the most generous description ever. He's a horrible passer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,929 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    This thread is unreal. He plays well and the haters pipe down and the lovers rave about him. He has two bad games and the haters are out again.

    I've never raved about him as a passer and understand it will take time, hard work and great coaching to improve him. Its all those intangibles that I've spoken of which have come to the fore since he became starter. Some guys wanted to dish me for that but I'd like to hear them now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,658 ✭✭✭✭Peyton Manning


    For anyone that's new to the forum and is a bit apprehensive about wading through 21 pages of this thread, here's the basic summary. Just multiply the below by 834 posts.

    utqPi.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    spiralism wrote: »
    one player was an average passer and not clutch at all, a poor leader and lazy

    If you have stories of Orton being lazy I'd be interested to read them

    He's an experienced vet by this stage and I've never heard anything like that about him

    So you're saying he doesn't work and is a bad locker room guy? That bit of your post just jumped out at me, I'd be very surprised if it were true


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    eagle eye wrote: »
    This thread is unreal. He plays well and the haters pipe down and the lovers rave about him. He has two bad games and the haters are out again.

    I've never raved about him as a passer and understand it will take time, hard work and great coaching to improve him. Its all those intangibles that I've spoken of which have come to the fore since he became starter. Some guys wanted to dish me for that but I'd like to hear them now.



    But I thought he just wins and motivates everyone around him to play better?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,150 ✭✭✭Morrisseeee


    Average passer is the most generous description ever. He's a horrible passer.

    so..............where would you rate Philip Rivers then ?

    I know this thread is about Tebow(rookie) v Orton(vet), Tebow won, ie. Orton had a string of losses, then Tebow took over and has a winning record. Orton has left the club now, & ironically they both now meet in the last game, so effectively this thread is over, it's unfair to compare them with different teams, otherwise it'll just go-on-&-on-&-on :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭tallaghtoutlaws


    eagle eye wrote: »
    This thread is unreal. He plays well and the haters pipe down and the lovers rave about him. He has two bad games and the haters are out again.

    We piped down? Really? trying to make it look like we only criticise when he does things wrong? He has shown through EVERY game he has glaringly obvious problems as a proper NFL QB.

    And the haters tag is getting old at this point. Say something constructive get labeled a hater. :rolleyes: The hater/lover thing died a couple of months ago. Good to see some like to use it to re-affirm a stupid line for those who dont like him in their opinion. I for one hope he does prove us wrong someday like I did with Newton but right now all he has is that "intangible" nonsense and poor passing.
    I've never raved about him as a passer and understand it will take time, hard work and great coaching to improve him. Its all those intangibles that I've spoken of which have come to the fore since he became starter. Some guys wanted to dish me for that but I'd like to hear them now.

    But as said by many the winning attitude can only carry you so far and this was shown up by the Patriots and Bills. Sure the winning attitude might motivate wins against some teams but it sure as hell wont be the only reason why you beat the better teams and this is where is Passing ability has to come into question, for fooks sake he is supposed to be a NFL QB. You would swear he never played QB in his life the way fans defend his passing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭tallaghtoutlaws


    mikemac1 wrote: »
    If you have stories of Orton being lazy I'd be interested to read them

    He's an experienced vet by this stage and I've never heard anything like that about him

    So you're saying he doesn't work and is a bad locker room guy? That bit of your post just jumped out at me, I'd be very surprised if it were true

    I would love to see proof of this also. One thing I have never heard tagged with Orton was Lazy. In fact if you google it the only time it is mentioned is on forums like this and in fact Boards.ie is at the top of the pile with Orton and the word lazy.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,299 ✭✭✭spiralism


    mikemac1 wrote: »
    If you have stories of Orton being lazy I'd be interested to read them

    He's an experienced vet by this stage and I've never heard anything like that about him

    So you're saying he doesn't work and is a bad locker room guy? That bit of your post just jumped out at me, I'd be very surprised if it were true

    Woody paige, the Broncos beat reporter would disagree
    I heard a talk-show host who loathes Tebow, and has backed himself into an indefensible corner, say that a lot of players — particularly the wide receivers and tight ends and offensive linemen — don't want to play with Tebow. It's total ... I can't say the word I want to ... let me think ... malarkey (that's not strong enough). The players like Tebow; they are inspired by him; they want to play with him; they've witnessed what he can accomplish.
    Let me give you one example: When Demaryius Thomas dropped passes, especially one big throw, in the Bears game, Tebow went over to him on the bench, put an arm around him and told Thomas not to worry, that he would make the game-winning catch and be the hero. It was not the game-winner, but Thomas caught the touchdown pass that allowed the Broncos to be in a position to win.
    The offensive linemen like Tebow because they've become the aggressors, not the fortress. Instead of being on their heels all the time pass-blocking, they blast off and hit somebody. The defensive players like Tebow because they're off the field for longer periods of time (look at where the Broncos are among leaders in time of possession since Tebow took over).
    Special team players have told me they love Tebow. The younger players especially like him because they've either come into the league with him, practiced with him (as backups) or because they want to be part of a winning team. Champ Bailey wants to be in the playoffs again. You think he and Brian Dawkins aren't loving Tebow for what's happening? The Tebow-haters have to find something new because he's proving he can play, he can win and he can get the Broncos to the playoffs. So they go for the players don't like playing with it. Malarkey.
    I've talked to enough players to know, unlike radio fools, that this is a close-knit team now, a team that was in disarray at the beginning of the season. As I've written, they got rid of the only anti-Tebow player — Brandon Lloyd — and how's that working out for Lloyd? Trust me. If he had stayed, he would have caught big passes and gotten just as big a contract as a free agent. People know he can catch whether he was in St. Louis or Denver. It just amazes me how, when you've been proved wrong, you just continue to wallow in mud.
    Todd, here's the biggest point of all that nobody, nobody, has talked or written about, and I was close to writing the column a week or so ago, and held off so I could talk to more players. The Broncos are a very strong Christian team. It's not just Tebow. The emphasis is his religious beliefs. But Brian Dawkins is just as faith-based as Tebow. Elvis Dumervil. Britton Colquitt. Willis McGahee. Demaryius Thomas made it clear when he was drafted about his religious commitment.
    I would guess that 60 percent to 70 percent of the players, if not more, reflect America's core belief in God. This is not a religious discussion. This is just statement of fact. The players judge Tebow on his play as a quarterback, his leadership qualities, his personality and as a person and, even, his religious beliefs. One player told me that when a player needs help in his charity work, Tebow is his go-to guy, and Tebow always helps in some way.
    The players see that every game Tebow hosts a kid who has a devastating disease. You don't think that doesn't affect them? They see how positive he is. He doesn't rip anybody. He's a guy who supports everyone around him. He reminds them all the time of how they can win the game in the fourth quarter. He inspired them in a speech the night before a game. They see how hard he works before, during and after practice.
    This is not Kyle Orton laughing at Tebow when he ran wind sprints full out. One of the major reasons Orton was cut was he had turned off the Broncos. He showed up late, wore a stocking cap in practices, was one of the first to leave and didn't really care after he was removed. Josh McDaniels had told me more than a year ago that Orton wasn't, despite what people thought, a leader on or off the field. Sure, he was elected captain from the offense. Who you going to elect? Offensive tackles are not elected captains. People made a big deal out of it.


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