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THE Sudan, The Ukraine, The Cameroon etc

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  • 08-12-2011 6:33pm
    #1
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭


    Can anyone enlighten me as to why these nations have the word 'the' attached to their name?

    I can understand why people say the United Kingdom or the United States but am at a loss for the rest.


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    #2
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Omackeral wrote: »
    Can anyone enlighten me as to why these nations have the word 'the' attached to their name?

    I can understand why people say the United Kingdom or the United States but am at a loss for the rest.
    I never heard Cameroon referred to as 'the Cameroon'.

    Shot in the dark here; could it be that the name of the country could also be descriptive of a type of environment, as in 'the Sahara', 'the Congo', 'the Ivory Coast', 'the Americas' etc.
    As in the country could be one which has an environmental type which would come to mind whenever the country's name is mentioned.

    But then, if this was to hold water as a theory, there should be a 'the Iceland', 'the Greenland'.

    During the Falklands war, British propaganda changed the name of Argentina to 'the Argentine' - never quite understood the reasoning behind this myself.

    It's an interesting puzzle alright.
    :pac:


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    #3
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    I don't know about the other two but Ukraine was referred to as 'the Ukraine' during Imperial Russian and Soviet times to de-nationalise the place. The government wanted it to be thought of as a region rather than a country or nation. Ukranians get quite annoyed if you refer to the country with 'the' prefixed.


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    #4
    muckish
    Registered Users Posts: 610 ✭✭✭muckish


    A bit like "the Glenties" in Donegal. Don't know why but that's what folk say... Probably comes from the Irish "na Gleannta", the glens.


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    #5
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    muckish wrote: »
    A bit like "the Glenties" in Donegal. Don't know why but that's what folk say... Probably comes from the Irish "na Gleannta", the glens.
    Would this tie in with a theory that it's to do with an environmental description?


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    #6
    muckish
    Registered Users Posts: 610 ✭✭✭muckish


    slowburner wrote: »
    Would this tie in with a theory that it's to do with an environmental description?
    I'd agree that it's more of a descriptive term of a "region" that became the Proper National name over time.... But then we don't say the Lapland and this is a region... Perhaps there's more of a grammatical explanation than a geographical one?


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    #7
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    muckish wrote: »
    I'd agree that it's more of a descriptive term of a "region" that became the Proper National name over time.... But then we don't say the Lapland and this is a region... Perhaps there's more of a grammatical explanation than a geographical one?
    Maybe there is an exception for cold climates :D
    Mentioned this above, that 'the Greenland', 'the Iceland' are not in common parlance.
    But then, just to confound this theory, you have the Arctic and the Antarctic.

    Islands or groups of islands - are they always prefixed with 'the'?
    I can't think of any that are not. The Seychelles, Bahamas, Falklands, Faroes, Shetlands etc.

    Maybe a post here might wake a boffin from their slumbers for a grammatical solution to the puzzle.


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    #8
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    slowburner wrote: »
    Maybe there is an exception for cold climates :D
    Mentioned this above, that 'the Greenland', 'the Iceland' are not in common parlance.

    Sort of irrelevant but I've always thought that these two names suited the other country better. i.e. Greenland is full of ice and Iceland is greener than Greenland :)


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    #9
    CajunOnTour
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭CajunOnTour


    slowburner wrote: »
    I never heard Cameroon referred to as 'the Cameroon'.


    :pac:

    But I've often heard it referred to as "The Cameroons"


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    #10
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    The reason the definite article "the" is often used is imperialist in nature.

    When many of these territories were established by Europeans, they were not so much defined by arbitrary borders in the sand, but by the natural landscape.

    Gambia and Congo are rivers, so "The Gambia" and "The Congo" originally referred to the territory surrounding these. "The Bangladesh" probably originally pertained to region surrounding an area called The Bangladesh Plain, a complex river system, and it just stuck.

    Some of the Arab countries and countries under Islamic influence were associated with the definite article for linguistic reasons. Sudan, in Arabic, was al-Sudan, which translates as "The Sudan", and so it remained.

    I'm not sure why Ukraine is called "The Ukraine" but perhaps there is a similar reason.

    I think if in doubt it is generally best to avoid the "the" prefix as it has traditionally been associated with a certain amount of European arrogance.


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    #11
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    As in 'The Argentine', mentioned above. :pac:


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    #12
    onedmc
    Registered Users Posts: 455 ✭✭onedmc


    muckish wrote: »
    I'd agree that it's more of a descriptive term of a "region" that became the Proper National name over time.... But then we don't say the Lapland and this is a region... Perhaps there's more of a grammatical explanation than a geographical one?

    The Free state


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    #13
    Mance Rayder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭Mance Rayder


    People saying the Ukraine comes from the habit of saying the UK. Ukraine translates as land.

    The correct name is Ukraine, not 'The'.


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    #14
    Batsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Batsy


    CiscoStudent wrote: »
    People saying the Ukraine comes from the habit of saying the UK.

    Wrong.

    Unlike some other European languages, such as French, which use the definite article before the name of every country (the French say l'Angleterre, la France, le Paraguay, l'Irlande, les Philippines, la Macédoine), there are only two main groups of countries which require the definite article (the) in English: those with plural names, such as the United States or the Netherlands, and those with adjectival or compound forms which require the article, such as the United Kingdom (a kingdom which is united), the Dominion of Canada, the Congo (short for The Democratic Republic of the Congo, the Congo being a river), the Gambia (short for The Republic of the Gambia, the Gambia being a river), the Sudan (short for The Republic of the Sudan, the Sudan being a geographic region to the south of the Sahara, stretching from Western to Eastern Africa), the Ukrainian SSR.

    There are, however, one or two exceptions to this rule. The Lebanon is so-called because the English language has copied the Hebrew language in using the definite article before the name of that country. In Hebrew, the word for "the" is "ha", so the Israelis call the Lebanon "haLevanon" ("the Lebanon").

    Another exception is Ukraine. In fact, unlike the examples listed above, the Ukraine shouldn't even have "the" before it.

    Calling Ukraine "the Ukraine" appears to be a mistake, and there are two reasons why:

    1) Ukrainian, unlike English, has no definite article. It has no word for "the". Therefore the Ukrainians, in their own language, cannot refer to their country as "the Ukraine." English originally never had the term "the Ukraine". It seems that Ukrainian scholars, who had emigrated to English-speaking nations, used the form "the Ukraine" in their books due to their imperfect knowledge of English, therefore helping to introduce the term into English.

    2) When the USSR was still around, Ukraine was one of its 15 constitutent nations. Its full name was the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic or in short, the Ukrainian SSR. The word "the" was used in an adjectival sense in the same way as the word "the" in the United States of America. But it seems that since Ukraine became independent, some people in English call it the Ukraine as though it is still the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic or the Ukrainian SSR. In fact, the government of Ukraine has told of its dismay at English-speakers calling their nation (which is the biggest country wholly in Europe) "the Ukraine" as it implies that the country is still a Soviet republic.


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    #15
    snubbleste
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 31,117 ✭✭✭✭snubbleste


    What about El Salvador?


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    #16
    CajunOnTour
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭CajunOnTour


    snubbleste wrote: »
    What about El Salvador?

    Best anti-Imperialist practice suggests we should call it merely "Salvador"

    And we should stop saying "the moon" :cool:


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    #17
    locum-motion
    Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    snubbleste wrote: »
    What about El Salvador?

    Is properly called República de El Salvador, literally 'Republic of The Savior'


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    #18
    locum-motion
    Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    Batsy wrote: »
    ... such as French, which use the definite article before the name of every country (the French say l'Angleterre, la France, le Paraguay, l'Irlande, les Philippines, la Macédoine)...

    In French, every noun (not just every country) must have an article of some type with it.

    Take wine, for example.
    In English, we can say "I like wine." In French, however, one must say "J'aime le vin.", which translates literally as "I like THE wine".

    Similarly, if someone asks "What is that in the glass?", in English we can say "It's wine", but in French it becomes "C'est du vin". Probably the best word to translate 'du' (masculine), 'de la' (feminine) or 'des' (plural) is 'some'. So "C'est du vin" means "It is some wine".


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    #19
    locum-motion
    Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    What puzzles me about country names is why 'Czech' appears to only be an adjective and doesn't appear to have a noun associated with it.

    Take us, for example: We have the noun form 'Ireland', and an adjectival form 'Irish'. Similarly, 'Britain/British', 'France/French', 'Spain/Spanish', Germany/German' etc. But it's always 'The Czech Republic'.

    It's not a linguistic thing either. The same seems to apply in the native languages of these countries too.

    La France/Français

    España/Español

    Deutchland/Deutch

    ???/Česká republika

    But, before separation, Czechoslovakia was a noun.


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    #20
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Peculiar alright, you'd think the adjective would be 'Czechish'?
    What about Slovak?


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    #21
    muckish
    Registered Users Posts: 610 ✭✭✭muckish


    locum-motion wrote: »
    What puzzles me about country names is why 'Czech' appears to only be an adjective and doesn't appear to have a noun associated with it.

    Take us, for example: We have the noun form 'Ireland', and an adjectival form 'Irish'. Similarly, 'Britain/British', 'France/French', 'Spain/Spanish', Germany/German' etc. But it's always 'The Czech Republic'.

    It's not a linguistic thing either. The same seems to apply in the native languages of these countries too.

    La France/Français

    España/Español

    Deutchland/Deutch

    ???/Česká republika

    But, before separation, Czechoslovakia was a noun.

    Irish is the adjectival form of the noun Irish, same with British, French etc... It's not the adjectival form of Ireland, or Britain, France etc...

    Similar for Czech

    Again this problem of linguistics probably relates more to the spoken language and what sounds right and is widely accepted as being right as opposed to being technically and grammatically correct.


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    #22
    Dan man
    Registered Users Posts: 3,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dan man


    In French, as far as I'm aware islands generally do not have a definite article before the name, example - Malta, although a feminine noun is referred to simply as "Malte" and Cyprus as "Chypre".


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    #23
    nfs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13 ✭nfs


    the phillipines, the USA, mad stuff


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    #24
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    slowburner wrote: »
    Peculiar alright, you'd think the adjective would be 'Czechish'?
    What about Slovak?

    Same issue with New Zealand.


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    #25
    locum-motion
    Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    HavingCrack wrote: »
    Same issue with New Zealand.

    Surely that's the other way around: it does have a noun (New Zealand) but doesn't have an adjective (New Zealand-ish, anyone?)


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    #26
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    locum-motion wrote: »
    Surely that's the other way around: it does have a noun (New Zealand) but doesn't have an adjective (New Zealand-ish, anyone?)
    That's a puzzler.


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    #27
    locum-motion
    Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    Some interesting semi-answers to my own questions here in this article: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demonym


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    #28
    Naggins
    Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭Naggins


    Omackeral wrote: »
    Can anyone enlighten me as to why these nations have the word 'the' attached to their name?

    I can understand why people say the United Kingdom or the United States but am at a loss for the rest.


    Never thought about it, could be just etymology or maybe something to with politics (conflicts/past history) .... but I doubt it.


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    #29
    CajunOnTour
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭CajunOnTour


    The Czechs had a competition to suggest a better name for the country than "Czech" when they split from Slovakia but couldn't come up with anything.

    I haven't czeched this out but so I'm told by an old guy who reckons he knows everything :rolleyes:


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    #30
    CajunOnTour
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭CajunOnTour


    slowburner wrote: »
    Peculiar alright, you'd think the adjective would be 'Czechish'?
    What about Slovak?

    Slovakish...obviously.

    Many island chains are called "the" - Los Malvinas, the Pitcairns, the Achill Islands and The Seychelles'

    "She sells Seychelles sea shells"

    Say it out loud very fast 10 times :D


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    #31
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    ...by the seashore.


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