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Entrapment? - either way it's ridiculous..

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,916 ✭✭✭Ormus


    I think it still hasn't sunk in for some people on here that these men weren't arrested for soliciting prostitutes. They were arrested for because of where they solicited them, ie: on the street.

    Anyone debating the rights and wrongs of prostitution is kinda missing the point.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6 Jalla


    I think this is a joke . The guards should be spending their time doing better things than catching a 67 year old man trying to have a bit of fun. If they think they are going to stop this sort of thing by embarrassing a few men and their families a few weeks before Christmas then the are deluded

    I think its the funniest thing i have ever heard.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    scholar007 wrote: »
    tiger kidnapping

    ????????


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,289 ✭✭✭tfitzgerald


    Jalla wrote: »
    I think its the funniest thing i have ever heard.

    Gives a whole new meaning to a ban Garda asking if she can take down you particulars :):)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Can't find anything on it. Is it related to the prostitution thing?
    Yeah been having a bit of a debate there too. It's basically liked by Ennis Facebook users since one of the men is the former principle of the local national school.

    The main beef is that he's the only person out of the 21 charged that got his picture on the front of The Sun. Make of that what you will.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/People-of-Ennis-to-Boycott-the-Sun-Newspaper/148261038610907


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    MyKeyG wrote: »
    Yeah been having a bit of a debate there too. It's basically liked by Ennis Facebook users since one of the men is the former principle of the local national school.

    The main beef is that he's the only person out of the 21 charged that got his picture on the front of The Sun. Make of that what you will.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/People-of-Ennis-to-Boycott-the-Sun-Newspaper/148261038610907

    Thanks.

    He was my prinicpal in primary, a good man. Cocked up though, fucking idiot.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭Giselle


    That Primary school principle wasn't thinking with his big head.

    What a monumental error of judgement on his behalf if he thought his rep wouldn't be ruined by trying to pick up a sex worker on the street.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    Giselle wrote: »
    What a monumental error of judgement on his behalf if he thought his rep wouldn't be ruined by trying to pick up a sex worker on the street.
    His rep wasn't ruined by trying to pick up a sex worker. His rep was ruined because he got caught:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,137 ✭✭✭44leto


    I want to set the record straight: I thought the cop was a prostitute.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    44leto wrote: »
    I want to set the record straight: I thought the cop was a prostitute.
    Well they are closing 40 Garda stations nationwide. Something has to bring in the 'bacon'.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22 Mary Earnest


    I expect there'll be a longer term negative impact on the lives of the Ban Gardai concerned than those of Mr. "Principal."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,137 ✭✭✭44leto


    I expect there'll be a longer term negative impact on the lives of the Ban Gardai concerned than those of Mr. "Principal."


    Yeah especially the ones that attracted NO punters, that will have a negative impact on their self esteem.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,713 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    They should have spotted the Gardai head a mile off.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,000 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    Is there such a thing as entrapment in Ireland anyhow ? I always thought it was just a US thing


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,713 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    Triangla wrote: »
    Proper order, soliciting prostitutes is such a scumbag thing to do.

    For anyone pro prostitution, would you approve it as a career choice for your mother, sister, wife, girlfriend, daughter even granny (a la Rooney)?

    Well not with that loser.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    Originally Posted by Triangla
    Proper order, soliciting prostitutes is such a scumbag thing to do.

    For anyone pro prostitution, would you approve it as a career choice for your mother, sister, wife, girlfriend, daughter even granny (a la Rooney)?
    My Mother prostituted herself to my dad for a diamond ring:D

    Feck it things are so bad I'm thinking about going on the game myself. Either that or become a guard. Mmmmm!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    MyKeyG wrote: »
    Feck it things are so bad I'm thinking about going on the game myself. Either that or become a guard. Mmmmm!!!

    The question is do you want to reek of Bacon or Fish when you come home from a long day of fucking people over...?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    Seachmall wrote: »
    The question is do you want to reek of Bacon or Fish when you come home from a long day of fucking people over...?
    Lynx Africa and mouthwash actually.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    I was reading this earlier and thought of this thread. An interesting read. I definitely agree that these debates concentrate on the extreme ends of the debate. Obviously this concentrates on the USA, but it is interesting in light of this thread.
    From child sex slaves to affluent call girls, debates over prostitution tend to rely on sensationalistic extremes. But Ronald Weitzer’s “Legalizing Prostitution: From Illicit Vice to Lawful Business” turns instead to the sober jargon of lawyers and policy nerds.

    OK, so it isn’t the sexiest case ever made for the legalization of prostitution, but it is one of the more intelligent, measured and comprehensive looks at alternatives to criminalizing the trade. Instead of the usual polarizing rhetoric about how sex work is inherently empowering or debasing, the George Washington University sociology professor takes the more practical approach of investigating how to best reduce harm within the industry, specifically within the U.S. His research takes him everywhere from Las Vegas to Frankfurt in search of the best and most realistic policy aims. Ultimately, he recommends a two-track approach stateside, where street prostitution, which he dubs a “social problem,” is treated dramatically differently from indoor prostitution involving consenting adults.

    Despite American society becoming increasingly sexualized, we’ve become less and less tolerant of the sex trade. Regardless, though, Weitzer says the time to discuss the possibility of decriminalizing prostitution is now. After all, we’ve seen “the gradual if incomplete normalization of some other kinds of vice or deviance over the past 40 years,” he writes, citing the examples of gambling, gay rights, marijuana and the proliferation of pornography. Whether you agree with his conclusion or not, his book is a trustworthy guide to recent research on the global sex trade.

    Weitzer spoke to Salon by phone about the harm done by criminalization, the benefits of indoor sex work and how trafficking is eclipsing debate over consensual adult prostitution.

    Why is it so important to draw a distinction between street prostitution and indoor sex work?

    Street prostitution differs from indoor sex work in some substantial ways — both in the way it manifests itself and in the kinds of people who tend to end up in street prostitution. Street prostitution has higher rates of addictive drug use and a higher percentage of workers are runaways, underage and have a pimp. Indoor sex work isn’t always preferable to street work, and there are some places in the world where people work indoors at high risk and are heavily exploited or experience violence, but in general, we find that indoor prostitution is potentially better for sex workers.

    There’s also an impact on the surrounding community of street-level work insofar as the negotiations take place on the street. Residents often try to pressure local authorities to crack down on street prostitution – they’re annoyed at sex acts being performed in public, workers getting in fights with potential clients or pimps, ordinary people in the neighborhood being hit on by clients or propositioned by the sex workers themselves. There’s a litany of grievances.

    You hit on this earlier: You argue in the book that street prostitution is a social problem. What does that mean in terms of how we address the problem?

    It’s very complex and requires more resources than are currently being devoted to street prostitution throughout the U.S. and many other countries. It’s not just a criminal justice problem where arresting people, maybe incarcerating them for a short period of time or fining them, is going to resolve the problem. It’s a social problem because many of the people who work on the street are disadvantaged to begin with. They come from broken homes or are runaways, and are engaged in survival sex — they’re basically a much more desperate population than what we find indoors.

    Very few resources are provided to help people get off the street — basically it’s this revolving door of criminal justice and law enforcement. Few cities provide many, if any, resources to help street prostitutes leave the trade.

    If you were given the power to unilaterally redesign the U.S. approach to prostitution, what would you change?

    My view is to differentiate street prostitution and indoor prostitution. I talk about the two-track policy in the book as one option in the U.S. Street prostitution would remain a criminal offense because of the social problems associated with it, but there would be much more resources put into trying to rehabilitate people working on the street. Track two would be de facto decriminalization: You stop enforcing the law against indoor workers, which means law enforcement doesn’t go out of its way to stage stings unless there’s some other evidence of a trafficking problem.

    That’s what I would advocate for the current situation in the U.S. The book raises a number of ideas for how nations that are considering legalization might approach it, but the U.S. is not in that category right now. As a halfway measure, we could talk about this two-track policy. Some cities already do that, they just don’t broadcast it, but there are other cities that put a fair amount of resources into monitoring and busting people who work in the indoor trade.

    We know that criminalization is not working very well, wherever it’s practiced. Basically, it forces people to operate in a clandestine manner in the illegal economy, much as with drug criminalization. It subjects the workers to greater risk, they do not feel comfortable contacting the authorities when they have been abused or exploited, and it increases the chances that pimps or other exploiters will get involved with them because the workers are already vulnerable and may feel that they need extra protection.

    What do you make of the Village Voice boycott? Is the newspaper profiting from child sex traffickers as its critics claim?

    That’s a good question and it’s very hard to answer. Whatever evidence there would be of that would be very anecdotal. To substantiate the claim, you would have to do a representative sample of ads on this website and then have data to prove that a certain percentage are underage or trafficked. It’s one of those claims that’s easily made, law enforcement and activists can cite anecdotal evidence, but to generalize that to the majority, or even a substantial minority, of people who advertise there would be very bad science and problematic.

    One thing that advertising on such a site does offer law enforcement is the opportunity to monitor. That is what Craigslist argued, but unsuccessfully. It can be used as a vehicle for identifying people who appear to be underage or trafficked. Without those kinds of mechanisms for advertising, it becomes even more difficult for the authorities to identify and locate people who may have been abused. You could look at it as law enforcement shooting themselves in the foot by eliminating a source that might prove beneficial.

    How could legalization affect trafficking?

    There are these claims made by anti-prostitution activists that legalization will only make the situation worse for sex workers because it will open the door to more trafficking, or traffickers will be able to operate with less fear of arrest. I’ve never understood those arguments. We know from the drug debate, criminalizing something as a vice when there is demand and supply increases the chances of violence within that economic sector. It also increases the chances of coercion and exploitation. If it’s true that legalization increases trafficking, then you would expect to see some evidence of that and I have not.

    How do we address the issue of abusive pimps? Even with legalization you still see a number of pimps.

    It depends on the society. You’ve got a fair number of them operating in the window area of Amsterdam, but if you go to Antwerp they really cracked down on organized crime and pimping in general.

    I think you can draw a parallel to marriage. We know that domestic violence happens between husbands and wives, but nobody’s arguing to criminalize marriage. There is violence in prostitution, just like there’s violence in marital relationships — the key is to focus on the violence, not the larger institution.
    http://www.salon.com/2011/12/08/its_time_to_legalize_prostitution/singleton/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,268 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Is there such a thing as entrapment in Ireland anyhow ? I always thought it was just a US thing

    There isnt...Its not a recognised judical or legal concept under Irish law.
    IOW they can do what they like to ensare you into a crime here.
    BTW the old hoary idea of asking the bit of stuff on the kerb "Are you a ban Garda employed undercover or trying to perk up your wage packetposing as a prostitute for the purposes of entrapment into an illegal act?" Wont work..She can tell you whatever she wants to get you to entrap yourself.
    Best thing is ..Avoid plainly dressd Irish street hookers.They are more than likely Ban Gardai.:D

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    I wish people would stop using the phrase "human traffiking" when they mean "forced prostitution" they are not necessairly the same thing.
    The vast majority of women who prostitute themselves dont want to do it and many of them as doing it against their will.

    Do you have a credible (i.e. not Ruhama) source for this ?
    SIMPLYTHE wrote: »
    I'd recommend you look up what the Mayor of Amsterdam himself said about the situation recently - that Amsterdam "made a mistake" thinking that legalising it would make it safer for women... It doesn't.
    Legalising prostitution on its own may not make it that much safer for women prostitutes. Legalising prostitution with tight regulation and controls should make it significintly safer for prostitutes (and their clients). As for the measures of recent years in Amsterdam there is still a lot of controversy over the true underlying motivations behind them and whether they will ultimately prove to be beneficial or counter productive.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6 Jalla


    Mickjg wrote: »
    One of the men arrested, Gary Stack from Ennis, is the former principal of Ennis National School. Very disgusting to find he has been involved in this.

    Small minded fool


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6 Jalla


    MyKeyG wrote: »
    My Mother prostituted herself to my dad for a diamond ring:D

    Feck it things are so bad I'm thinking about going on the game myself. Either that or become a guard. Mmmmm!!!
    Nice:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65 ✭✭Jopari87


    Outside of being a PR exercise for the gardai, I think arresting the 21 men was a bit pointless.

    It won't make one jot of difference to prostitution. If they were interested in preventing any trafficking or protecting the welfare of the women, go after the gangs or pimps instead and solve the problem at its source.

    Also, as many people have mentioned already there are many more pressing issues in Ireland, which **** all is done about.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    In a nutshell:
    noun

    The shell enclosing the meat of a nut.

    Idiom:
    Adverb

    1. Summed up briefly; "gave the facts in a nutshell"; "just tell me the story in a nutshell"; "explained the situation in a nutshell"

    2.
    Jopari87 wrote: »
    Outside of being a PR exercise for the gardai, I think arresting the 21 men was a bit pointless.

    It won't make one jot of difference to prostitution. If they were interested in preventing any trafficking or protecting the welfare of the women, go after the gangs or pimps instead and solve the problem at its source.

    Also, as many people have mentioned already there are many more pressing issues in Ireland, which **** all is done about.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,692 ✭✭✭Dublin_Gunner


    And there I was thinking a Garda escort was for your own safety...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,671 ✭✭✭Blitzkrieger


    Possibly pointless coming to a debate this late, especially on AH, but my 2 cents :

    Generally when you're talking about crime, there's a clear victim and a clear criminal. Is it not a bit harsh to make those 21 men criminals for soliciting an act that is not illegal, when soliciting that act is not itself illegal - just illegal in a public place? Not that I would want to make soliciting in public legal, but prosecuting those men, and publishing their names in the national press, seems harsh, when their crime is effectively treating women posing as prostitutes, in areas frequented by prostitutes, as if they were prostitutes?

    Would you be offended if I assumed you were a farmer, while you were standing in a field, dressed as a farmer and pretending to be a farmer? Or would that be some form of crime of discrimination?

    Ridiculous to bring such a minor crime to court, using so much Garda and court resources. I think it's an injustice to those men.

    As to who the victim is, I do believe the women are the victims in prostitution. I don't believe that prostitution is wrong, as long as both parties freely agree. The problem is with the "freely agree" part. Some have mentioned that not all prostitutes are forced into it, but I still have a problem with the idea that they freely choose to do so. Obviously the financial reward must appeal to some, but I still find it appalling that they would feel they have to do that.

    But at the end of the day, it's not going to go away, so what do you do to try and protect the women involved?

    Am I really that naive in thinking a legal centralised red light district like Amsterdam would help? That if there was a place for these men to go where they could pick a woman who has "chosen" to be there, that it would cut business for the pimps and gangs involved in underground trafficking? I know that underground trafficking would still go on, but couldn't we then focus more police resources on that, rather than bringing some lonely old sod up in front of a judge?

    Some posters have said that studies have shown that trafficking has increased in countries where prostitution has been legalised, which surprises me - you'd think the demand would have been lessened. I also wonder at the accuracy of the studies. For instance :
    After legalising prostitution in 2002 Germany saw a 70% increase in human trafficing by 2010.

    Was there actually a 70% rise or were reports/prosecutions up 70%? And like someone else said, would it have been up 75% or 80% if prostituion had not been legalised?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 317 ✭✭MOSSAD


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Not all women are delicate flowers who's innocence need to be protected. Some recognize sex for what it is, a meaningless act and one an entrepreneuring woman can turn profitable.

    In fact most women nowadays hold that opinion, a quick scan of Coppers will prove this.
    There's a Brazilian whore based in Clare, who works for herself, and uses a couple of her fellow compatriots to drive her to appointments, wait outside and take her onto the next one. For one night she pays the guy €50 and throws in a blowjob. According to the guys she charges between €150 and €200 to the Irish men, and is much admired in the Brazilian community. She does discounts for groups of Brazilian men at €10 a f**k. Perhaps she could advise Noonan on ho to balance the books.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    MOSSAD wrote: »
    There's a Brazilian whore based in Clare, who works for herself, and uses a couple of her fellow compatriots to drive her to appointments, wait outside and take her onto the next one. For one night she pays the guy €50 and throws in a blowjob. According to the guys she charges between €150 and €200 to the Irish men, and is much admired in the Brazilian community. She does discounts for groups of Brazilian men at €10 a f**k. Perhaps she could advise Noonan on ho to balance the books.
    What are you her PR? One of the men caught is from Ennis. Where was this information when he needed it?:D

    But in all seriousness the fact that she's willing to throw in a BJ in lieu of pay to her drivers just goes to show what view some women have of sexual acts, a means to an end.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 321 ✭✭Socialist_Pig


    MOSSAD wrote: »
    There's a Brazilian whore based in Clare, who works for herself, and uses a couple of her fellow compatriots to drive her to appointments, wait outside and take her onto the next one. For one night she pays the guy €50 and throws in a blowjob. According to the guys she charges between €150 and €200 to the Irish men, and is much admired in the Brazilian community. She does discounts for groups of Brazilian men at €10 a f**k. Perhaps she could advise Noonan on ho to balance the books.


    cool story bro


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