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Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Leiva


    Jeez not having him back for the end of the season is least of our worries .

    Depending on the severity of the injury (which i aint heard anything about ?) we should be asking ourselves will we have him back in a year ?:o

    And if we looses this fella good luck :
    Luis Suárez and Patrice Evra racism case presents problem for FA

    It will be tricky for the authorities to work through the semantics of what the Liverpool striker is alleged to have said

    reddit this
    Comments (6)

    Luis Suarez and Patrice Evra
    Luis Suarez and Patrice Evra during Liverpool's draw with Manchester United at Anfield in October. Photograph: Phil Noble/Reuters

    What we don't know for certain is the word Luis Suárez used. Patrice Evra alleges it was racist and uttered at least 10 times. Suárez admits he did say something but nothing, for someone with his upbringing in Uruguay, he considers racist or deserving of the Football Association charges that will bring lawyers from Manchester United and Liverpool opposite one another in the coming weeks. Here lies the problem for the FA and the reason why they are thinking about bringing in a QC with specialist knowledge to oversee the case.

    In ordinary circumstances, the FA would appoint a three-man panel consisting of an independent chairman, an FA councillor and someone described as a "football expert", meaning a former player or manager. The Guardian, however, has learned the FA might upgrade to a four-man commission because of the complexities of a case in which Suárez can, if necessary, point out he comes from a country where variations of the N-word are used very differently, and that it is actually quite common in Uruguay for men and women of all skin colours to have the nickname of El Negro or La Negra without any racist undertones.

    Obdulio Varela, the 1950 World Cup-winning captain and one of the more famous footballers in Uruguayan history, is revered as El Negro Jefe (The Black Chief). Fernando Cáceres, who was in the Argentina squad at the 1994 World Cup, is another El Negro, as is Héctor Enrique, the Argentinian who played the pass for Diego Maradona to slalom through the England team in Mexico 1986. Then consider that Enrique, for example, is not even black, and it becomes even more confused.

    Nor is this just a football thing. Rubén "El Negro" Rada is one of the more successful musicians in Uruguay, appearing in a sitcom called La Oveja Negra (The Black Sheep) and with a compilation of his work entitled El Album Negro. Héctor Lescano, the Uruguayan Minister of Sport and Tourism, is known in politics as El Negro Lescano. The late cartoonist and writer Roberto Fontanarrosa and the late singer Mercedes Sosa were two others. Both were white.

    Elliott Turner, the author of An Illustrated Guide to Soccer and Spanish, posed the question recently of whether, in the Suárez case, "Anglo racial linguistic norms really offer the right and only lens by which to judge." Turner, writing for The Run Of Play, pointed out that "on a superficial level, in the Spanish language one can use the term negro or güero or moreno, with no negative connotation." Güero is white or light skinned; moreno means brown or dark.

    So is it all fairly innocent in the Spanish-speaking world? Not quite. "All language exists in context," Turner continued. "I'd say those terms only to family, friends or acquaintances. If you say the same term with anger in your eyes and hate in your heart, then its meaning can change 180 degrees." Like the time, perhaps, Luis Aragonés referred to Thierry Henry as "negro de mierda" ("a black ****") in 2004.

    This is where Suárez may find himself being interrogated. He and Evra were, after all, arguing at the time, so it would be difficult for the Liverpool player to make a case that it was merely an alternative to "mate" or "pal". Then there is the issue of whether ignorance should constitute any form of defence anyway. If a foreign visitor was stopped for driving on the wrong side of the road in England, would he get off simply because he could claim it was the norm where he was from? Suárez has lived in northern Europe since 2006, so an argument could be made he should have a decent grasp of what can and cannot be said outside of South America and would be acceptable in one country but unacceptable in another.

    Negrito is another prime example. It turns out this is not the word central to the Suárez-Evra case, but it does reveal a little more about the nuances of the Spanish language, translating as "little black guy" and such a common part of the vernacular that team-mates use it on each other as an affectionate term. Take the message Dani Pacheco, the Liverpool player currently on loan at Rayo Vallecano, sent to his Spain Under-21 colleague Thiago Alcântara via Twitter recently. "Negrito, enjoy yourself," it began.

    Visitors to countries such as Uruguay and Argentina can, understandably, find it shocking if they are unaware of the semantics. "The key is the tone in which you say those words," Sebastian Garcia, the South American football writer for Mundo Albiceleste, explains. "It can be extremely friendly to call someone 'negrito' but it can also be very offensive."

    In Brazil, it is negão, again with no racist connotation if none is meant. Other terms such as branco (white), moreno (dusky) and mulatto (mixed-race) are also commonly used in a non-offensive way. However they can, too, be used in a racist capacity. Again, it comes down to context.

    Another example is of Javier Hernández, now Evra's team-mate at United, in an interview on the Chivas Guadalajara website in 2007, where the Mexican is quoted complimenting "the goal of the Negrito," talking about his team-mate Omar Esparza. As Garcia explains: "It all depends on the connotation, the way it is used, the tone, the intent."

    Even then, different rules are in operation. When Carlos Tevez started out at Boca Juniors he was known as El Monito (The Little Monkey). Diego Perotti, the Sevilla player, goes by the same nickname, because his father, Hugo, who played with Diego Maradona at Boca, was El Mono (affixing 'ito' and 'ita' to the end of words is to express that something is smaller). Could a player in England, of whatever race, ever be called this?

    If nothing else, it highlights there might be shades of grey involved when it comes to deciding what is racist and what is not. But it is a complicated business and, in Suárez's case, this is why the FA has allowed him more time than usual to respond to the charges. Liverpool say he will vigorously protest his innocence and the striker has said his words were not an insult but just his own "way of expressing myself. I called him something his team-mates at Manchester call him, and even they were surprised by his reaction. There were two parts of the discussion, one in Spanish, one in English."

    The delays have been frustrating for Liverpool, where they have offered Suárez their full backing, and also for United, where there is a feeling the dispute may have contributed towards Evra's erratic recent form. One of football's anti-racism bodies has complained behind the scenes that "people are tried for murder in less time." But the semantics and cultural issues are so complex it is not something the men in suits at FA headquarters can learn in a crash course. No date has been set for the hearing and, with legal teams to assemble, a row that began between two rival players on a football pitch on 15 October could very likely go beyond Christmas.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,225 ✭✭✭Sappy404


    Bugger.

    Personally I couldn't believe it when he wasn't hauled off immediately after hurting himself. Playing on to do more damage was just crazy.

    That said, the reaction to this injury speaks volumes for his progress in the last two seasons. He's recognised as a massive part of the spine of the team by everyone now, and deservedly so.

    I have a feeling he'll be back before the end of the season though. Fingers crossed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Leiva


    Sappy404 wrote: »
    Bugger.

    Personally I couldn't believe it when he wasn't hauled off immediately after hurting himself. Playing on to do more damage was just crazy.

    That said, the reaction to this injury speaks volumes for his progress in the last two seasons. He's recognised as a massive part of the spine of the team by everyone now, and deservedly so.

    I have a feeling he'll be back before the end of the season though. Fingers crossed.

    Sorry mate ...not a fcuking chance !


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,832 ✭✭✭✭Blatter


    mixednuts wrote: »
    Jeez not having him back for the end of the season is least of our worries .

    Depending on the severity of the injury (which i aint heard anything about ?) we should be asking ourselves will we have him back in a year ?:o

    And if we looses this fella good luck :

    Negrito is another prime example. It turns out this is not the word central to the Suárez-Evra case

    Interesting, haven't read from anywhere else recently that disputed that was the word used.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    The Suarez/EVra incident is such a cluster **** of a situation. I'd actually feel sorry for the people on the panel.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    The squad has coped without Gerrard for about 10 months, Carra for a couple of spells and all going well, he'll be 3rd choice CB.

    Don't have as much confidence Lucas can be covered though, his awareness really is something that only comes with time and experience. Its a big ask for Spearing, somebody in on loan probably makes more sense as a back up/alternative for him.

    Just on Suarez, it just seems to be vague and arguable to me.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,361 ✭✭✭YouTookMyName


    Not just gutted for him, but also worried that that sort of injury might mean he'll never be the same again.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Spearing can do a job for us for the next few weeks, he showed that last season where he was excellent.

    I think we'll be ok until Jan.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,139 ✭✭✭✭Mars Bar


    That's bad news for ye.

    I feel sorry for him. He really has improved and is showing his worth to the team. I kinda like the guy...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭dannydiamond


    fk fk fk fk fk fk fk fk fk fk fkit.:mad:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,735 ✭✭✭Fowler87


    rarnes1 wrote: »
    Spearing can do a job for us for the next few weeks, he showed that last season where he was excellent.

    I think we'll be ok until Jan.

    Hopefully, but as I said before he did have the added guidance/cover of Lucas for most of his best form last year.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,743 ✭✭✭Revolution9


    LucasLeiva87 Lucas Leiva





    Hi ALL.Just to confirm that I will be out until the rest of season. I am really sad with the news because I was enjoying a lot on the pitch.

    I am sure I will come back stronger and I will achieve everything that I dream with the LFC shirt.

    I am sure I'll NEVER WALK ALONE

    http://twitter.com/#!/LucasLeiva87


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,267 ✭✭✭opr


    Dare I say we might end up regretting taking this particular cup competition so seriously. If this ends up costing us 4th place will it have been worth it ? While the injury to Lucas may have been a freak occurrence I think he has played far too many minutes this season for a player who plays with such high intensity.

    Opr


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 759 ✭✭✭DaNiEl1994


    im more dissapointed about lucas getting injured than when gerrard got injured for a few months last season HUGE BLOW!

    get well lucas :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,560 ✭✭✭✭Kess73


    Sappy404 wrote: »
    Bugger.

    Personally I couldn't believe it when he wasn't hauled off immediately after hurting himself. Playing on to do more damage was just crazy.

    That said, the reaction to this injury speaks volumes for his progress in the last two seasons. He's recognised as a massive part of the spine of the team by everyone now, and deservedly so.
    I have a feeling he'll be back before the end of the season though. Fingers crossed.



    The reaction speaks volumes on two fronts. The first being how Lucas is now valued by a fair sized chunk of the support, and the second being how little we have by way of quality depth in CM.

    The only good thing about the injury is that we are only a month to the transfer window opening. So important to either bring in real quality on loan (unlikely) or to buy some real quality that can add steel and class while Lucas is out, but that could also play alongside Lucas when he returns.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭daithijjj


    The first game (v City in CC Jan 11) will be shown live on BBC TV and will kick-off at 7.45pm. The second leg at Anfield will be shown on Sky and takes place on 25 January also with a 7.45pm start time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭woodyg


    Kess73 wrote: »
    The reaction speaks volumes on two fronts. The first being how Lucas is now valued by a fair sized chunk of the support, and the second being how little we have by way of quality depth in CM.

    The only good thing about the injury is that we are only a month to the transfer window opening. So important to either bring in real quality on loan (unlikely) or to buy some real quality that can add steel and class while Lucas is out, but that could also play alongside Lucas when he returns.

    its not a case of splashing cash or getting some one on loan that will be the issue, it would be more how long that player would take to settle.

    It could be that Kenny decides that Henderson\Adam\Gerrard\Shelvy\a-another will have to carry the load.

    Gutted for Lucas with out a doubt has been 8/10 performer for the last 16-18 months and with Adam this season and the confidence Kenny has instilled he has shown what Raffa seen in him.

    No point getting in to an argument about if he should have played in teh cup or not, an injury can happen any time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,942 ✭✭✭missingtime


    January is a bit of a crappy month to go hunting for players though. We'll either end up paying over the odds cos the team we are buying off wont have suitable time to replace or they wont hit the ground running.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Leiva


    Question or maybe clutching at straws :

    Does Lucas compliment our current starting formation/setup hence why we were doing so well .

    or

    Does the current starting formation/setup compliment Lucas hence why he was doing so well .


    If its the later then we may have a strong enough setup that we can support a player to blossom in Lucas position in his absence.

    Im not saying Lucas was of no value and easily replaced , far from it , Im just thinking (or) hoping out loud that we may have a good formation and squad now that will support and heal quicker with the loss of such a influential player.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,560 ✭✭✭✭Kess73


    woodyg wrote: »
    its not a case of splashing cash or getting some one on loan that will be the issue, it would be more how long that player would take to settle.

    It could be that Kenny decides that Henderson\Adam\Gerrard\Shelvy\a-another will have to carry the load.

    Gutted for Lucas with out a doubt has been 8/10 performer for the last 16-18 months and with Adam this season and the confidence Kenny has instilled he has shown what Raffa seen in him.

    No point getting in to an argument about if he should have played in teh cup or not, an injury can happen any time.


    I think that Kenny would be mad to rely on Henderson, Adam, Spearing , and Shelvey between now and the end of the season. Not only do I think the level of quality is not there, but one bad injury would put us in a right spot.

    I have left Gerrard out as I think he will spend more time out between now and the end of the season than he will spend fit.

    Coming towards the end of August I thought we were light in terms of the CM slots as we did not have depth of quality, and now with Lucas out for the season the club really should be looking at bringing in some real quality for CM.

    Granted a player may not hit the ground running, but I would prefer to have a player got and take the risk on him hitting form quickly, and still have the players we currently have as back up, then to gamble on what we have suddenly upping their games and having no plan B if they cannot.

    Totally agree with you on there being no point in debating whether or not he should have played in the game. He could have picked up the same type of injury in any of our games.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,224 ✭✭✭barone


    says so much about how important lucas is to us that his loss will be a bigger blow then the loss of stevie g


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,560 ✭✭✭✭Kess73


    mixednuts wrote: »
    Question or maybe clutching at straws :

    Does Lucas compliment our current starting formation/setup hence why we were doing so well .

    or

    Does the current starting formation/setup compliment Lucas hence why he was doing so well .


    If its the later then we may have a strong enough setup that we can support a player to blossom in Lucas position in his absence.

    Im not saying Lucas was of no value and easily replaced , far from it , Im just thinking (or) hoping out loud that we may have a good formation and squad now that will support and heal quicker with the loss of such a influential player.


    I think there is an element of truth to both options, but I would lean towards the first option holding the great share of that truth.

    I think that after Suarez and Reina, Lucas is next hardest player to replace in our squad, and like the other two we don't have anyone in the squad who can step in with anything and give the same level of consistency/quality for a substantial length of time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,560 ✭✭✭✭Kess73


    barone wrote: »
    says so much about how important lucas is to us that his loss will be a bigger blow then the loss of stevie g


    I think the Lucas of now will prove a harder player to replace using our current squad than the Gerrard of now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,403 ✭✭✭✭Turtyturd


    News about Lucas is more depressing than Torres handing in a transfer request. Hope it gives the rest of the team an extra incentive to win the league cup.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 366 ✭✭sh__93


    Who do you lot think would be suitable to fill the gap left by Lucas if our owners do decide to dip into their pockets..
    I reard people mention m'vila ans sissoko but i don't know enough about them to comment to be honest.
    ow much would they cost does anybody know?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,100 ✭✭✭tommyhaas


    sh__93 wrote: »
    Who do you lot think would be suitable to fill the gap left by Lucas if our owners do decide to dip into their pockets..
    I reard people mention m'vila ans sissoko but i don't know enough about them to comment to be honest.
    ow much would they cost does anybody know?

    I'd prefer a loan move for someone tbh, and spend money in other areas

    Anyone seen enough of the reserves to say whether Coady could get a chance during the season? And does Wisdom play much as a defensive midfielder?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,832 ✭✭✭✭Blatter


    Someone like van Bommel who has slipped down the pecking order at Milan would be a good loan signing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,267 ✭✭✭opr


    Blatter wrote: »
    Someone like van Bommel who has slipped down the pecking order at Milan would be a good loan signing.

    He is a complete liability these days.

    Edit - Wasn't Lassana Diarra being linked with us only a short while back for a move in January ?

    Opr


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,832 ✭✭✭✭Blatter


    opr wrote: »
    He is a complete liability these days.

    Edit - Wasn't Lassana Diarra being linked with us only a short while back for a move in January ?

    Opr

    I don't think he's gone that bad, would surely be an upgrade on Spearing anyway!

    I'd say nearly every club under the sun has been linked with Lass Diarra over the last few months :pac:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭daithijjj


    barone wrote: »
    says so much about how important lucas is to us that his loss will be a bigger blow then the loss of stevie g

    Lets see what happens between now and end of season to gauge the blow. Sometimes things like this galvanise a squad. Dare i say it, some fans might lower their expectations.... and get a surprise.

    I rate Henderson alot, but not out the wing, he is a centre mid all day long and ive always held that view, everyone associated with him has said so, he plays there for the u21's and thats where he likes to play. Just dont expect a 'sitter' like Lucas is if he does play there, he is box to box, we might miss the shield a bit when Lucas goes but we might gain more from a central midfielder getting closer to the strikers. It is definitely something we have lacked, getting midfielders making runs ahead of the ball.

    I was just thinking there that maybe we might see more of Downing playing wide right now, he is much more influential and comfortable there imo. And with that, more Bellamy starts out left.

    Im sorry to say i dont rate Spearing at all, will be a long season if he is expected to step up imho. Perhaps we do have summer targets in the pipeline and the Lucas injury plays our hand for itself a bit by pushing in Jan for them, can only wait and see. Shelvey was due back on 30th December in any case.


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