HEC: Castres Olymique vs Munster, Sat 19 Nov 3:40pm; Pre/During/Post Match Thread

iroced · 19-11-2011 06:01PM

Aidric wrote: »

GerM wrote: »

Not sure who got MOTM but Masoe was superb from start to finish.

If I'm not mistaken I heard the stadium announcer call him out as motm.

Yes. Masoe got MOTM.

irishbucsfan · 19-11-2011 06:04PM

Munster

Du Preez - 29 years old
Varley - 28 years old
Botha - 31 years old
Donncha Ryan - 28 years old
Paul O'Connell - 32 years old
Peter O'Mahoney - 22 years old
Niall Ronan - 29 years old
James Coughlan - 31 years old

Conor Murray - 22 years old
Ronan O'Gara - 34 years old
Denis Hurley - 27 years old
Lifeimi Mafi - 29 years old
Danny Barnes - 22 years old
Doug Howlett - 33 years old
Johne Murphy - 27 years old

Average age: 28 years old

Team in transition? Sounds like an excuse to me. They either need to get younger or get better.

razorblunt · 19-11-2011 06:04PM

GerM wrote: »

Alas players are not. Munster need to start doing a Dolly the sheep with ROG now because he's hands down the most important component to them. Put in an average HEC outhalf in his place and the whole picture changes. Lose POC and you bring DOC or MOD in who can up their game. Lose ROG? Irreplaceable for a side like Munster.

Not sure who got MOTM but Masoe was superb from start to finish.

Thing is you're not going to get another ROG, the whole gameplan will have to change when he goes. The bigger worry for me is the forwards, while I have been impressed with Ryan in the second row for the last two games, the fact that MOD is still hanging around is a concern. Nagle hasnt seemed to make the jump up yet, whats up there?

profitius · 19-11-2011 06:05PM

Munster were poor. Bad handling, silly little errors and worst of all was the decision making.

Johne Murphy going for a drop goal from the half way line is taking the p!ss. He had men outside him and plenty of space. Denis Hurley kicking the ball away near the end. Mafis defending for the 2 Castres tries.

Danny Barnes made 2 handling errors at the start of the second half but I'd have taken Mafi off. Chambers made a massive difference when he came on. Hes a direct runner who makes the hard yards. Good player to have.

POC and POM were outstanding as usual. Leamy played well when he came on. He has to start against Scarlets. I'm still not convinced about Ronan. He made a good turnover near the end but Munster conceded plenty of turnovers at the breakdown.

uriah · 19-11-2011 06:10PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Munster

Du Preez - 29 years old
Varley - 28 years old
Botha - 31 years old
Donncha Ryan - 28 years old
Paul O'Connell - 32 years old
Peter O'Mahoney - 22 years old
Niall Ronan - 29 years old
James Coughlan - 31 years old

Conor Murray - 22 years old
Ronan O'Gara - 34 years old
Denis Hurley - 27 years old
Lifeimi Mafi - 29 years old
Danny Barnes - 22 years old
Doug Howlett - 33 years old
Johne Murphy - 27 years old

Average age: 28 years old

Team in transition? Sounds like an excuse to me. They either need to get younger or get better.

Ian Keatley 24
Keith Earls 24
Felix Jones 24

Podge_irl · 19-11-2011 06:13PM

uriah wrote: »

Ian Keatley 24
Keith Earls 24
Felix Jones 24

Keatley isn't in the first choice team, so his age is somewhat irrelevant. Also, to be honest, with Earls coming in I imagine it's most likely Barnes would be the one to lose out so that would only serve to raise the age.

The average age is kind of not the point though. For a team "in transition", by the time they've transitioned their most important player (ROG) is probably going to retire causing even more problems.

irishbucsfan · 19-11-2011 06:13PM

uriah wrote: »

Ian Keatley 24
Keith Earls 24
Felix Jones 24

None of whom started tonight

If they all did then maybe you could claim its a team in transition. When O'Gara, POC, Howlett, and Botha retire they will be a team in transition.

Brian P · 19-11-2011 06:18PM

iroced wrote: »

I don't get the whole Munster poor playing, getting lucky, fortunately having O'Gara, etc...

Seen from my French point of view, Munster is like Manchester United in soccer. No matter how great or poor you are you're always one of the toughest team to play, home and away and in the end you almost always get the win. These last 2 HEC games are the perfect example. Cold blooded war machine that KNOWS how to win. In the end, that's what matters.

Munster play badly and win
Northampton play badly and get thumped.

Always the sign of a great winner:roll with the punches when it's rough and get in the winning knockout blow at the end.

ed7890 · 19-11-2011 06:20PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Munster

Du Preez - 29 years old
Varley - 28 years old
Botha - 31 years old
Donncha Ryan - 28 years old
Paul O'Connell - 32 years old
Peter O'Mahoney - 22 years old
Niall Ronan - 29 years old
James Coughlan - 31 years old

Conor Murray - 22 years old
Ronan O'Gara - 34 years old
Denis Hurley - 27 years old
Lifeimi Mafi - 29 years old
Danny Barnes - 22 years old
Doug Howlett - 33 years old
Johne Murphy - 27 years old

Average age: 28 years old

Team in transition? Sounds like an excuse to me. They either need to get younger or get better.

Saying a team in transition is not about the age of the players, it's about the players who were part of HEC winning team needing to be replaced; Hayes, Horan, Quinny, Dowling, Murphy, Flannery, Wallace and so on. Plus guys like POC, DOC, ROG and Dougie, who are still contributing heavily but will need replacements soon.

Podge_irl · 19-11-2011 06:22PM

ed7890 wrote: »

Saying a team in transition is not about the age of the players, it's about the players who were part of HEC winning team needing to be replaced;

Not much point transitioning to a team that will only last a couple seasons though. They are transitioning, I just question some of the replacements they are bringing in. I'm not sure some of them are going to reach the required standard at this point.

Typh · 19-11-2011 06:25PM

An ugly, necessary win. I think some people underestimated Castre while not taking into account that this Munster side are very much a team in transition, a term which is oddly being associated exclusively with age. I would've imagined there was more to transition than merely a cull of the elderly. Wasn't it mentioned that O'Connell was the only one of eight forwards that started the game in that very stadium against Toulouse three years ago? Interesting when you think about it.

The error toll was far too high; handling errors, lackadaisical at the breakdown, early engagements. Barnes has played himself out of the team as much as Chambers has played himself into it.

As for O'Gara, his blocking down method was unconventional but ended in a try, his touch-finders were unusually low but got there and he narrowly missed two kicks of lesser difficulty than the three conversions from the touchline or thereabouts. He won the match with the last kick of the game from 40 odd yards, for the second week in succession. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm quite content to say that an OH did all of the above and didn't have one of his better games. It just illustrates the guy's calibre. I thought Munster shaded the game, and should have taken it without such theatrics. Trust them to keep it interesting though.

irishbucsfan · 19-11-2011 06:28PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Not much point transitioning to a team that will only last a couple seasons though. They are transitioning, I just question some of the replacements they are bringing in. I'm not sure some of them are going to reach the required standard at this point.

I think there is point transitioning to a team that will only last a few seasons, so long as they're good. So I agree that average age is irrelevant.

This team isn't good though, as they showed last season and so far this season. McGahan needs to find a direction. Praying that ROG will save you every week is not a direction.

ed7890 · 19-11-2011 06:32PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think there is point transitioning to a team that will only last a few seasons, so long as they're good. So I agree that average age is irrelevant.

This team isn't good though, as they showed last season and so far this season. McGahan needs to find a direction. Praying that ROG will save you every week is not a direction.

If they were back to the same top level then they wouldn't be team in transition would they, they'd have already transitioned? There's still loads of improvement needed, but that's the point.

ed7890 · 19-11-2011 06:36PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Not much point transitioning to a team that will only last a couple seasons though. They are transitioning, I just question some of the replacements they are bringing in. I'm not sure some of them are going to reach the required standard at this point.

Hopefully our academy will start bringing in better replacements soon. NIQ like Botha and Du Preez are filling the gaps until we produce some good props again. And solid players like Cawlin and Varley are filling a gap at the moment, but hopefully they'll be getting pushed now by younger guys who could make it international level.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 19-11-2011 06:38PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think there is point transitioning to a team that will only last a few seasons, so long as they're good. So I agree that average age is irrelevant.

This team isn't good though, as they showed last season and so far this season. McGahan needs to find a direction. Praying that ROG will save you every week is not a direction.

How can you say the team isn't good enough when they've beaten last years finalists and a French team away from home? Sure both games were won in injury time but, we could have had two bonus points too. Pretty great turn around when you're missing 5 first teamers - 3 of whom are Lions.

I don't think that anyone has expectations of this Munster team reaching a HC final but, if we get any luck injury wise, the team wouldn't look out of place in a semi.

Spudmonkey · 19-11-2011 06:42PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think there is point transitioning to a team that will only last a few seasons, so long as they're good. So I agree that average age is irrelevant.

This team isn't good though, as they showed last season and so far this season. McGahan needs to find a direction. Praying that ROG will save you every week is not a direction.

Which is surely why some of the newer guys should be starting once they are back. Nagle, sherry, TOD. I'd say a lot of these lads should be introduced now while we still have good replacements for them. Not in a few years time when we start them out of necessity.

danthefan · 19-11-2011 06:47PM

Spudmonkey wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think there is point transitioning to a team that will only last a few seasons, so long as they're good. So I agree that average age is irrelevant.

This team isn't good though, as they showed last season and so far this season. McGahan needs to find a direction. Praying that ROG will save you every week is not a direction.

Which is surely why some of the newer guys should be starting once they are back. Nagle, sherry, TOD. I'd say a lot of these lads should be introduced now while we still have good replacements for them. Not in a few years time when we start them out of necessity.

Nagle is fit, playing B&I cup.

Spudmonkey · 19-11-2011 06:50PM

danthefan wrote: »

Nagle is fit, playing B&I cup.

Sorry I thought he was still out.

irishbucsfan · 19-11-2011 06:56PM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

How can you say the team isn't good enough when they've beaten last years finalists and a French team away from home? Sure both games were won in injury time but, we could have had two bonus points too. Pity great turn around when you're missing 5 first teamers - 3 of whom are Lions.

I don't think that anyone has expectations of this Munster team reaching a HC final but, if we get any luck injury wise, the team wouldn't look out of place in a semi.

This is exactly my point. Play terribly and get saved by O'Gara. You claim you're missing 3 Lions. One is 36, one is 33 and hasn't managed a full game of rugby in years.

If O'Gara had missed those kicks people would be rightfully talking about poor Munster performances and highlighting their lazy defense, their poor discipline, their lack of control, their poor game management etc. But because he made those kicks and saved Munster, people will just talk about the result.

Surely the performance is important as well, and the performances are just getting worse and worse. Munster are not improving, they're not transitioning. Their defense tonight in the first half was advancing maybe half a foot by the time the opposition reached it. Where was the passion? It took two tries by the opposition to wake them up and that opposition was starting only 4 first teamers. Munster were as bad tonight as they've been in European competition in recent years, but because they won people will talk about how great they are to win away. And because they got a few breaks from the ref and then were saved against Northampton (who were hockeyed by Llanelli last night at home) people talk about beating last year's finalists.

It's denial, it's clinging onto a long-departed glory, it's a refusal to take a step back and take a realistic and critical look at what was once the best team in Europe. It's cancerous and it'll just lead to a further slide. Munster fans should hold their team to a higher standard than that. They're not the brave and faithful anymore, they're the ageing and self-deceptive. And fans who live to worship Ronan O'Gara, who has had two average performances culminating in two incredible match-winning kicks, are just enabling it. And yet the headlines will read Miracle Match again. The miracle is that Munster aren't at the bottom of their group.

sleepyman · 19-11-2011 06:57PM

danthefan wrote: »

Nagle is fit, playing B&I cup.

Don't think Danny Barnes is up to it-looks completely lost @this level-He's 22/23 now so I'm not sure.Peter O mahony on the other hand looks completely comfortable.

I think Munster's back play looks very one dimensional-I don't know if this is because of the personnel,Hollands coaching or both but we look far better when we revert to type at the moment-trucking it up the middle & kicking for corners.

Agree with what some people say about ronan-good to bring on against tiring opposition but not physical enough at the breakdown

phog · 19-11-2011 07:05PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Ha, what odds on that happening again.

Two pretty poor teams though. Scarlets must be fancying their chances.

Scarlets will certainly be thinking that they can top this table but they were very lucky last night, possibly luckier than we were today. I think they only created one try last night and managed to score three more to give them the BP win.

wixfjord wrote: »

:eek::eek:
Once again lads, leave behind the last two mins, and Munster were poor in that.
Come on now.
One try from a block down, one from an awful mistake from them.
Great result but it's a little rich being dissapointed with not getting a bonus!
There was some awful rugby in that.

Ah come on, give us some credit, we scored 3 tries and probably butchered or turned over ball on another 4 or 5 ocaasions sos the chance of the BP win was certainly there, on the balance of things may not have been deserved but still was on.

danthefan wrote: »

Nagle is fit, playing B&I cup.

Nagle is fit now but was in jured when he should have been playing Rabo12 to impress and fight for his H/C place. He just has been unlucky not to have got a run when it might have mattered but his day will come of that I've no doubt.

Overall, I thought we coughed up too much ball in their half and in their 22, we seemed to give them the break in the rucks and it cost us yards.

ROG mixed the bad the good and the great, his option for the 1st DG was rushed and Murphy should never had gone for one, it looked like we were panicing.

A win if France is hard, a draw looked like the best we'd copme away with but again ROG did what was required, from a poor pass to slot it so easily over the posts.

The back to back games in December will be huge for NH, Scarlets and ourselves. I hope Castres go to Franklin Gardens on a mission.

Judgement Day · 19-11-2011 07:07PM

Matt Williams

Another great evenings entertainment regardless of some of the individual performances. Good old ROG -yet again (and POC, Dougie....etc.etc.)- I won't even mention the names of those posters here who were calling for Keatley to come on for him. Just like last week - cometh the hour. cometh the man.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 19-11-2011 07:12PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

This is exactly my point. Play terribly and get saved by O'Gara. You claim you're missing 3 Lions. One is 36, one is 33 and hasn't managed a full game of rugby in years.

If O'Gara had missed those kicks people would be rightfully talking about poor Munster performances and highlighting their lazy defense, their poor discipline, their lack of control, their poor game management etc. But because he made those kicks and saved Munster, people will just talk about the result.

Surely the performance is important as well, and the performances are just getting worse and worse. Munster are not improving, they're not transitioning. Their defense tonight in the first half was advancing maybe half a foot by the time the opposition reached it. Where was the passion? It took two tries by the opposition to wake them up and that opposition was starting only 4 first teamers. Munster were as bad tonight as they've been in European competition in recent years, but because they won people will talk about how great they are to win away. And because they got a few breaks from the ref and then were saved against Northampton (who were hockeyed by Llanelli last night at home) people talk about beating last year's finalists.

It's denial, it's clinging onto a long-departed glory, it's a refusal to take a step back and take a realistic and critical look at what was once the best team in Europe. It's cancerous and it'll just lead to a further slide. Munster fans should hold their team to a higher standard than that. They're not the brave and faithful anymore, they're the ageing and self-deceptive. And fans who live to worship Ronan O'Gara, who has had two average performances culminating in two incredible match-winning kicks, are just enabling it. And yet the headlines will read Miracle Match again. The miracle is that Munster aren't at the bottom of their group.

What about the numerous spurned try scoring opportunities. As I've said, we could have comfortably had 6 tries in that match. Its not a ''vintage'' team but, they are able to front up to anyone is Europe. We were by no means in the last 3 weeks the comfortably beaten team that people want you to believe. Do you expect fans to just disown the Munster team just because we aren't beating everyone out the door?

Is it just me or has the number of Leinster fans weighing in on Munster's fortunes grown exponentially since their poor performance last week and against Munster.

ed7890 · 19-11-2011 07:15PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

This is exactly my point. Play terribly and get saved by O'Gara. You claim you're missing 3 Lions. One is 36, one is 33 and hasn't managed a full game of rugby in years.

If O'Gara had missed those kicks people would be rightfully talking about poor Munster performances and highlighting their lazy defense, their poor discipline, their lack of control, their poor game management etc. But because he made those kicks and saved Munster, people will just talk about the result.

Surely the performance is important as well, and the performances are just getting worse and worse. Munster are not improving, they're not transitioning. Their defense tonight in the first half was advancing maybe half a foot by the time the opposition reached it. Where was the passion? It took two tries by the opposition to wake them up and that opposition was starting only 4 first teamers. Munster were as bad tonight as they've been in European competition in recent years, but because they won people will talk about how great they are to win away. And because they got a few breaks from the ref and then were saved against Northampton (who were hockeyed by Llanelli last night at home) people talk about beating last year's finalists.

It's denial, it's clinging onto a long-departed glory, it's a refusal to take a step back and take a realistic and critical look at what was once the best team in Europe. It's cancerous and it'll just lead to a further slide. Munster fans should hold their team to a higher standard than that. They're not the brave and faithful anymore, they're the ageing and self-deceptive. And fans who live to worship Ronan O'Gara, who has had two average performances culminating in two incredible match-winning kicks, are just enabling it. And yet the headlines will read Miracle Match again. The miracle is that Munster aren't at the bottom of their group.

There were negatives in both games, but there were positives too. Can you not let us enjoy a big win in our season without trying to rain on our parade.

Aidric · 19-11-2011 07:17PM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Is it just me or has the number of Leinster fans weighing in on Munster's fortunes grown exponentially since their poor performance last week and against Munster.

No, you're right. The nerves are jangling I'd say.

irishbucsfan · 19-11-2011 07:19PM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

What about the numerous spurned try scoring opportunities. As I've said, we could have comfortably had 6 tries in that match. Its not a ''vintage'' team but, they are able to front up to anyone is Europe. We were by no means in the last 3 weeks the comfortably beaten team that people want you to believe. Do you expect fans to just disown the Munster team just because we aren't beating everyone out the door?

Is it just me or has the number of Leinster fans weighing in on Munster's fortunes grown exponentially since their poor performance last week and against Munster.

Don't think the team I support really changes my opinion, I've been critical of Musnter performances for over a year now. I've travelled all over Europe to watch Munster, including to the H Cup wins. I might be a Leinster fan but I want all Irish teams to do well. Plus if Leinster were "poor" last week then Munster were beyond abysmal (not that I would compare the two).

You are right though, they are able to front up to any second-string team in Europe.

razorblunt · 19-11-2011 07:20PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Clearly didn't see the statement I was replying to. :pac:

Yeah that's entirely possible!! ;-)

irishbucsfan · 19-11-2011 07:22PM

ed7890 wrote: »

There were negatives in both games, but there were positives too. Can you not let us enjoy a big win in our season without trying to rain on our parade.

I don't like raining on your parade, I'm just disappointed in you for having one (again)!

muscleshirt · 19-11-2011 07:22PM

sleepyman wrote: »

Don't think Danny Barnes is up to it-looks completely lost @this level-He's 22/23 now so I'm not sure.Peter O mahony on the other hand looks completely comfortable.

I think Munster's back play looks very one dimensional-I don't know if this is because of the personnel,Hollands coaching or both but we look far better when we revert to type at the moment-trucking it up the middle & kicking for corners.

Agree with what some people say about ronan-good to bring on against tiring opposition but not physical enough at the breakdown

chambers will have to start in future,barnes is at best rabo12 standard

donfers · 19-11-2011 07:24PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

This is exactly my point. Play terribly and get saved by O'Gara. You claim you're missing 3 Lions. One is 36, one is 33 and hasn't managed a full game of rugby in years.

If O'Gara had missed those kicks people would be rightfully talking about poor Munster performances and highlighting their lazy defense, their poor discipline, their lack of control, their poor game management etc. But because he made those kicks and saved Munster, people will just talk about the result.

Surely the performance is important as well, and the performances are just getting worse and worse. Munster are not improving, they're not transitioning. Their defense tonight in the first half was advancing maybe half a foot by the time the opposition reached it. Where was the passion? It took two tries by the opposition to wake them up and that opposition was starting only 4 first teamers. Munster were as bad tonight as they've been in European competition in recent years, but because they won people will talk about how great they are to win away. And because they got a few breaks from the ref and then were saved against Northampton (who were hockeyed by Llanelli last night at home) people talk about beating last year's finalists.

It's denial, it's clinging onto a long-departed glory, it's a refusal to take a step back and take a realistic and critical look at what was once the best team in Europe. It's cancerous and it'll just lead to a further slide. Munster fans should hold their team to a higher standard than that. They're not the brave and faithful anymore, they're the ageing and self-deceptive. And fans who live to worship Ronan O'Gara, who has had two average performances culminating in two incredible match-winning kicks, are just enabling it. And yet the headlines will read Miracle Match again. The miracle is that Munster aren't at the bottom of their group.

the thing is munster fans have had their fill of this kind of "analysis" for about oh the last 15 years, every year they are told they lack quality, aren't good enough etc. and every year stupid little things like err......results say otherwise

nobody is saying this munster team are world-beaters or are the beginning of a new era so i don't understand why you seem so upset that Munster have snuck a late win again

fact is, they have 2 wins out of 2, fact is that Munster have been written off year after year by so-called experts only to make them look foolish, fact is they've 8 points from 2 tough games and people can criticise all they like but if 8 points from those two fixtures isn't good enough for some people then you'd have to ask, what is - champagne rugby and bonus points are for pansies, grind out the results and keep the juggernaut moving on, the munster way and why they have qualified for the knock-out stages more than any other side

HEC: Castres Olymique vs Munster, Sat 19 Nov 3:40pm; Pre/During/Post Match Thread

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