United Ireland

talkinyite · 17-11-2011 01:17PM

around 5 years

Tiocfaidh Armani · 17-11-2011 01:30PM

summerskin wrote: »

What about the flag? Are you loyal to the irish flag?

I don't pay much credence to symbols. I'm Irish and proud of it but I don't want people in Ireland dividing themselves into group based on religious and cultural lines.

Freddie59 · 17-11-2011 01:34PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

Ethnically cleansed? It was people from that community which threatened thousands of Protestants out of Londonderry, the city they loved. This myth that it only happened to one side is nonsense.

It is Ulster. I think the Scottish people would reject a vote on independence at this moment in time.

Ha ha! Wishful thinking boy! And the usual propaganda in the first sentence above.:rolleyes:

Freddie59 · 17-11-2011 01:35PM

Leftist wrote: »

Can't get over the number of ira sympathisers on here.

I don't like the Provos but they are entirely justified. :rolleyes:

I don't suppose you live there then.:rolleyes:

Freddie59 · 17-11-2011 01:35PM

Leftist wrote: »

Wiped out? you mean gas chambers? mass graves, that sort of thing?

Or are you purposefully lying to make our history more interesting and our extremists justified?

How old are you actually?

KeithAFC · 17-11-2011 01:36PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

Ha ha! Wishful thinking boy! And the usual propaganda in the first sentence above.:rolleyes:

Propaganda? It is historical fact. Thousands intimidated out of their homes.

summerskin · 17-11-2011 01:38PM

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

I don't pay much credence to symbols. I'm Irish and proud of it but I don't want people in Ireland dividing themselves into group based on religious and cultural lines.

But in your opinion they are idiots for feeling british and proud of it. Blinkered, somewhat?

KeithAFC · 17-11-2011 01:39PM

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

I don't pay much credence to symbols. I'm Irish and proud of it but I don't want people in Ireland dividing themselves into group based on religious and cultural lines.

Irish Republicans have their own culture, they are fully entitled to it. Just allow us to have ours.

Freddie59 · 17-11-2011 01:39PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

Propaganda? It is historical fact. Thousands OF CATHOLICS intimidated out of their homes.

FYP.

KeithAFC · 17-11-2011 01:41PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

FYP.

Aye, it only happened on one side. :rolleyes:

A bit of a reality check should be put back into the thread.

Freddie59 · 17-11-2011 01:45PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

Aye, it only happened on one side. :rolleyes:

A bit of a reality check should be put back into the thread.

Of course, you and your friends had MI5/6, The RUC, and the British SArmy giving ye a little helping hand.........

KeithAFC · 17-11-2011 01:47PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

Of course, you and your friends had MI5/6, The RUC, and the British SArmy giving ye a little helping hand.........

What has that got to do with a United Ireland? People being thrown out of their homes happened on both sides. Fact.

Tiocfaidh Armani · 17-11-2011 01:51PM

summerskin wrote: »

But in your opinion they are idiots for feeling british and proud of it. Blinkered, somewhat?

I have no problem with national pride, I'm talking about a loyalty to a Crown based on religious faith. It's idiotic. You see them protesting aboutside Downing St because their precious Crown might be allowing their flock to marry Catholic's. This sort of moronic bigotry is what makes loyalism tick.

Tiocfaidh Armani · 17-11-2011 01:54PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

Irish Republicans have their own culture, they are fully entitled to it. Just allow us to have ours.

Republicanism is not a culture, it's a political ideology. Our culture is not much different to that of the UK, USA, Canada, Australia etc. There is very little difference, if any, between someone who grew up on the Shankill to someone who grew up on the Falls.

KeithAFC · 17-11-2011 01:55PM

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

Republicanism is not a culture, it's a political ideology. Our culture is not much different to that of the UK, USA, Canada, Australia etc. There is very little difference, if any, between someone who grew up on the Shankill to someone who grew up on the Falls.

I didn't say it was. But that group of people (Republicans) have their own culture and should be entitled to it. But so should people from the PUL community.

Tiocfaidh Armani · 17-11-2011 01:58PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

I didn't say it was. But that group of people (Republicans) have their own culture and should be entitled to it. But so should people from the PUL community.

Nobody is denying you your right to be different but as I said culturally there is little difference in how a Protestant in the North lives his life daily to a Catholic. They have the same daily issues and the same interests.

People have a different heritage but that doesn't define them as people today. People should organise themselves around class issues, not what flag you like best.

KeithAFC · 17-11-2011 02:02PM

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

Nobody is denying you your right to be different but as I said culturally there is little difference in how a Protestant in the North lives his life daily to a Catholic. They have the same daily issues and the same interests.

People have a different heritage but that doesn't define them as people today. People should organise themselves around class issues, not what flag you like best.

Of course they do but in terms of culture and ethnicity, two different groups of people live alongside each other in Ulster.

Sinn Fein frankly don't care about class issues because you would struggle to find them discussing class issues without a tri colour wrapped around them.

LordSutch · 17-11-2011 02:12PM

stewie01 wrote: »

Its pretty much inevitable that in the near future Ireland will be restored back to a united island. My question is when?

predictions welcome

But what is a united Ireland? and why would anybody want one? what flag would we have as an island nation? what national anthem? where would the power base be? would Stormont as a parliament be desolved in favour of Dublin? and would northeners want to just give-up their hard fought for Assembly? would the Unionist population have to relinquish their Britishness? How would a 'United Ireland' be financed? and would the rest of the UK allow NI to leave the Union without a UK wide referendum? would the North want to give up their own devolved power base within the UK? would they want to give up 'the GBP' in favour of the Deutschmark Euro? would NI be bothered if the Germans set their interest rates instead of London? would the North want compulsory Irish introduced into their schools? would they mind if RTE replaced the BBC as their National broadcaster? would Northeners mind if the NHS was sent packing in favour of our health service? 'An Post' instead of the Royal Mail too? . . . . . . . . . .

So may if's, but's and really deep fundamential questions for the proposition to even be considered, so for all these reasons & many more, I guess that there will never be a United Ireland in the sense that Irish Republicans strive for & demand.

Tiocfaidh Armani · 17-11-2011 02:59PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

Sinn Fein frankly don't care about class issues because you would struggle to find them discussing class issues without a tri colour wrapped around them.

You should open your ears then and take off your red, white and blue specs then.

Tiocfaidh Armani · 17-11-2011 03:01PM

LordSutch wrote: »

But what is a united Ireland? and why would anybody want one? what flag would we have as an island nation? what national anthem? where would the power base be? would Stormont as a parliament be desolved in favour of Dublin? and would northeners want to just give-up their hard fought for Assembly? would the Unionist population have to relinquish their Britishness? How would a 'United Ireland' be financed? and would the rest of the UK allow NI to leave the Union without a UK wide referendum? would the North want to give up their own devolved power base within the UK? would they want to give up 'the GBP' in favour of the Deutschmark Euro? would NI be bothered if the Germans set their interest rates instead of London? would the North want compulsory Irish introduced into their schools? would they mind if RTE replaced the BBC as their National broadcaster? would Northeners mind if the NHS was sent packing in favour of our health service? 'An Post' instead of the Royal Mail too? . . . . . . . . . .

So may if's, but's and really deep fundamential questions for the proposition to even be considered, so for all these reasons & many more, I guess that there will never be a United Ireland in the sense that Irish Republicans strive for & demand.

You can get into the minor semantics of it all but it's utter stupidity to have two separate economies on the island. It's pointless and needless. And done to appease religious zealots. Deary me, what sort of country are we living in.

Richard · 17-11-2011 07:03PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

I didn't say it was. But that group of people (Republicans) have their own culture and should be entitled to it. But so should people from the PUL community.

Yes, but there are shared cultural aspects. St Patrick and the Irish Rugby team to name two. But if you go back 50 years, unionists were more in touch with their Irishness, 100 years even moreso.

Back then, there weren't unionists who said they weren't Irish (well, not many).

In the last 10 years, some unionists have got in touch with their Irishness again. This will increase over time.

I don't think the descendants of today's loyalists would kick up a fuss if a UI happens in 100 years and a large section of the "PUL" community votes for it.

Freddie59 · 17-11-2011 07:19PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

What has that got to do with a United Ireland? People being thrown out of their homes happened on both sides. Fact.

By MI5/6, the RUC, and the Army?:rolleyes: How many innocent Protestants were jailed for something they didn't do, a la Guildford 4/Birmingham 6?

British 'justice' at its best.

snafuk35 · 17-11-2011 07:36PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Two completely different scenarios. Back then the guys of 1916 were fighting for the concept of an Island called Ireland free from British rule and then the British executed them and enraged the entire country.

What exactly would a few thousand loyalists be fighting for in your dystopian vision of a UI gone badly wrong? Red white and blue kerbs?

They see themselves as British and not Irish.
Irish people see themselves as Irish and not British even though we speak English, watch lots of British tv shows, listen to a lot of British pop music, are mad about English teams like Man U, Arsenal and Chelsea (very popular name for girls in many parts of Dublin?) and read about lots of British celebs. Gaeltacht areas are confined to Donegal, Kerry and Connemara and GAA is strong but really only in very few counties. Soccer is clearly more popular in Dublin than bogball.
We are very Britishified (is that a word?) but we still love our 'Irishness.'

I would presume that the Bible thumping puritanism of Ulster Scots has faded out quite a bit along with the flax industry and ship building and the Orange Order is apparently struggling to interest youngsters now that the Troubles are a bad memory. BUT there is passionate Ulster Protestant sentimental loyalism. It's in their blood the same as a desire to be independent is in the blood of Irish nationalists.

We underestimate the centuries of attachment the Northern Protestants have with Britain.

It's just ridiculous to believe that will just be papered over in an United Irish Republic.

The Golden Miller · 17-11-2011 08:51PM

snafuk is your typical irish loyalist sympathiser. ironically, its people like him who dont actually want the north back, are the ones which make threads like this endless by continually commenting on them. obsessed isnt the word.

not to mention the threat of loyalist violence is irrelevant. hypothetically speaking, if there was a referendum north and south and the north ended up being voted into a united ireland, then thats it. it would be the wish of the people. loyalists could blow up everyone in there sights. it wouldnt make any difference to the status of the country, infact it doesnt even come into the equation

lugha · 17-11-2011 09:06PM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

not to mention the threat of loyalist violence is irrelevant. hypocthetically speaking, if there was a referendum north and south and the north ended up being voted into a united ireland, then thats it. it would be the wish of the people. loyalists could blow up everyone in there sights. it wouldnt make any difference to the status of the country, infact it doesnt even come into the equation

I think you are rather in a minority view (possibly of one!) if you think violence from loyalist, or anyone else, is irrelevant. I would guess that the majority of Irish people probably do favour a united Ireland, but not if the cost is a return to violence.

And you are right that the loyalists would have no authority to defy the democratic will of the people of Northern Ireland if they opt for a united Ireland (which is a possibility but by no means a certainty). Alas, failing to respect the democratic will of the people is one charge republicans have no great moral authority to make.

Tiocfaidh Armani · 17-11-2011 09:08PM

snafuk35 wrote: »

They see themselves as British and not Irish.
Irish people see themselves as Irish and not British even though we speak English, watch lots of British tv shows, listen to a lot of British pop music, are mad about English teams like Man U, Arsenal and Chelsea (very popular name for girls in many parts of Dublin?) and read about lots of British celebs. Gaeltacht areas are confined to Donegal, Kerry and Connemara and GAA is strong but really only in very few counties. Soccer is clearly more popular in Dublin than bogball.
We are very Britishified (is that a word?) but we still love our 'Irishness.'

Bogball?:rolleyes:

GAA is strong but only in a few few counties? Oh dear we have someone who really hates anything Irish and likes to talk it down. The GAA is the second most played and most watched by spectators by A MILE my dear friend. It's engrained into communities around Ireland like no other as much as you would like to ignore it.

Irish people support English football teams but that doesn't equate to a love of anything British. The pubs will be rocking when England get knocked out of the Euros next summer nearly as much as any Irish win.

We love a lot of things that are American like their movies and TV and eat McDonalds but that doesn't make us in any way America. See that's the world today, it's open wide like never before and that's a good thing but it doesn't dilute what anybody is.

Cú Giobach · 17-11-2011 09:10PM

snafuk35 wrote: »

They see themselves as British and not Irish.
Irish people see themselves as Irish and not British even though we speak English, watch lots of British tv shows, listen to a lot of British pop music, are mad about English teams like Man U, Arsenal and Chelsea (very popular name for girls in many parts of Dublin?) and read about lots of British celebs. Gaeltacht areas are confined to Donegal, Kerry and Connemara and GAA is strong but really only in very few counties. Soccer is clearly more popular in Dublin than bogball.
We are very Britishified (is that a word?) but we still love our 'Irishness.'

What a load of crap.
In case you don't realise quite a few people worldwide speak English, and speaking it certainly doesn't make someone, English, Scottish or Welsh.
Here we watch a mix of Irish, British and American TV for the most part, like people in most parts of the world we are not so insular as to only watch telly from our own country.
British music is popular worldwide and Irish music (I'm not just talking about trad) and artists are very very popular here and throughout the world, we are actually renowned for our music worldwide. Not all the inhabitants of this country are kiddies who listen to pop music by the way, we do have a diverse range of ages living here :rolleyes:
Celeb culture is a worldwide phenomenon and the same bunch of idiots are discussed everywhere (usually by more idiots).
GAA is huge country wide, if you didn't notice the number of GAA shirts being worn around Dublin last summer you must have had your head stuck up somewhere quite dark, and since Dublin certainly isn't Ireland who gives a sh*t if something isn't popular in Dublin, that only says something about Dublin (something the rest of the country is well aware of

).
All the stuff you mentioned just makes us part of the Western world.

The Golden Miller · 17-11-2011 09:13PM

lugha wrote: »

I think you are rather in a minority view (possibly of one!) if you think violence from loyalist, or anyone else, is irrelevant. I would guess that the majority of Irish people probably do favour a united Ireland, but not if the cost is a return to violence.

And you are right that the loyalists would have no authority to defy the democratic will of the people of Northern Ireland if they opt for a united Ireland (which is a possibility but by no means a certainty). Alas, failing to respect the democratic will of the people is one charge republicans have no great moral authority to make.

my point was if it did come to fruition, the violence is irrelevant to the status of the country. and the "real violence" would only kick off after the result of a referendum, by which time there is no going back.

and i disagree. republicans do have the moral authority over loyalists in asking them to respect the wishes of the people. you see, when ireland was divided, the will of the people was denied.....a free independent country. now take scotland for instance. if they have their potential referendum in the future and they vote yes for independence, will it also be divided in two....... a part that wants to stay in the union, and the part that wants independence? dont think so. there is nothing democratic about the current irish divide

woodoo · 17-11-2011 09:18PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

By MI5/6, the RUC, and the Army?:rolleyes: How many innocent Protestants were jailed for something they didn't do, a la Guildford 4/Birmingham 6?

British 'justice' at its best.

Remember what Gerry Adams said when asked about british justice once:

What do you think of British justice Gerry?

"I think it would be a good idea", he replied.

woodoo · 17-11-2011 09:26PM

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

Irish people support English football teams but that doesn't equate to a love of anything British. The pubs will be rocking when England get knocked out of the Euros next summer nearly as much as any Irish win.

I don't believe that anymore. People are warming to the English national side i see. They wouldn't quite want them to win the World cup or Euro's but are happy to see them stay in the competition.

There isn't really the justification to hate England anymore. The people who acted the bollocks in this country are long dead. England has placed the future of NI in the hands of NI. If they vote for a UI England will not stand in the way.

The ancient hatred of England is no longer justified imo.

United Ireland

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