United Ireland

Chuck Stone · 16-11-2011 03:34PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Its funny. Keith is the only regular poster on here who lives in NI and yet no one ever listens to him.

People don't listen to him because he is not representative of mainstream unionism - it's immature tribalism and nothing else.

The majority of normal Unionists live in the present and probably don't harbour paranoid fantasies of hordes of papists streaming across the border carrying guns with bullets dipped in holy roman water.

I grew up in the north btw and all but my immediate family still reside there - all of which are Nationalists who lived through those times. Many lived on the Bogside of Derry in the bad old days.

Freddie59 · 16-11-2011 03:43PM

getz wrote: »

when you say protestants,do you meen anyone who is not a catholic ? or do you meen anyone who is not a republican ,i am english and a catholic but if i was northern irish ,i would not join any irish culture club like the GAA that names its grounds and its competitions after IRA bombers and murderers,and neither would i join any orange/unionist terror group that did the same. there has to be big changes in attitudes in the north and south before anyone can even believe in any type of united ireland,

I'd be far from a Republican sympathiser, but were it not for the IRA in the late 60s.early 70s the catholic population would have been ethnically cleansed before the term was even coined. So I can see where they are coming from with the ground namings.

Freddie59 · 16-11-2011 03:45PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

I frankly don't care if it exposes the attitude that loyal sons of Ulster don't want to be ruled by Dublin and have the tri colour forced upon us.

Such complete and utter drivel. It isn't even 'Ulster'. only six counties are occupied. And what DO you think of those Scots you hero-worship thinking of leaving the "Union"?:rolleyes::D

Freddie59 · 16-11-2011 03:48PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Its funny. Keith is the only regular poster on here who lives in NI and yet no one ever listens to him. Whereas posters down here (present company excepted of course) deem themselves to be experts.

I would never try and guess what life is/was like in NI, all I can do is give an opinion of it from my side of the water. Bloody Sunday is often quoted as the best recruitment campaign the IRA, imho, the IRA were the biggest barrier to a united Ireland.

Bollocks. As I've already said, the Catholics would have been wiped out only for the IRA.

No-one listens to keith because he also speaks Bollockese.:D

KeithAFC · 16-11-2011 03:50PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

I'd be far from a Republican sympathiser, but were it not for the IRA in the late 60s.early 70s the catholic population would have been ethnically cleansed before the term was even coined. So I can see where they are coming from with the ground namings.

Ethnically cleansed? It was people from that community which threatened thousands of Protestants out of Londonderry, the city they loved. This myth that it only happened to one side is nonsense.

Such complete and utter drivel. It isn't even 'Ulster'. only six counties are occupied. And what DO you think of those Scots you hero-worship thinking of leaving the "Union"?

It is Ulster. I think the Scottish people would reject a vote on independence at this moment in time.

RichieC · 16-11-2011 03:54PM

I love the internet since I put that person on ignore...

Leftist · 16-11-2011 04:20PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

I'd be far from a Republican sympathiser, but were it not for the IRA in the late 60s.early 70s the catholic population would have been ethnically cleansed before the term was even coined. So I can see where they are coming from with the ground namings.

Can't get over the number of ira sympathisers on here.

I don't like the Provos but they are entirely justified. :rolleyes:

Leftist · 16-11-2011 04:22PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

Bollocks. As I've already said, the Catholics would have been wiped out only for the IRA.

Wiped out? you mean gas chambers? mass graves, that sort of thing?

Or are you purposefully lying to make our history more interesting and our extremists justified?

sensibleken · 16-11-2011 04:24PM

Leftist wrote: »

Wiped out? you mean gas chambers? mass graves, that sort of thing?

Or are you purposefully lying to make our history more interesting and our extremists justified?

whatever you do leftist, dont get into an argument about irish history again. you'll only make yourself look foolish again

The Golden Miller · 16-11-2011 06:42PM

Jonniealan wrote: »

I think alot of catholics in the North if they were being honest would not vote for a united Ireland. its only really the shinners and some other looney tune parties running that agenda.

Plus would we not get a referendum down here to deside if we wanted it back ?

we would. but we shouldnt. who are we (people in the 26) to say who can and cant be run by an irish government? its the birthright of the irish citizens of the north, just as it is ours

The Golden Miller · 16-11-2011 06:44PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

Ethnically cleansed? It was people from that community which threatened thousands of Protestants out of Londonderry, the city they loved. This myth that it only happened to one side is nonsense.

It is Ulster. I think the Scottish people would reject a vote on independence at this moment in time.

so explain to us all how 6 counties make up ulster....the 9 county irish provence?

Tiocfaidh Armani · 16-11-2011 06:57PM

Leftist wrote: »

Wiped out? you mean gas chambers? mass graves, that sort of thing?

Or are you purposefully lying to make our history more interesting and our extremists justified?

Maybe he was a little silly using the term 'wiped out', but you do know of the 1969 pogroms, don't you? And the period before that that saw sectarian rule in the six-counties?

snafuk35 · 16-11-2011 08:52PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Orangemen? Stop lying.

What you are talking about was Willie Frazer's provocative Love Ulster gang.

A provocative parade got a reaction. Were you surprised?

Absolute paranoid bull****.

Loyalists kicking off a war or Protestants? Do you actually have any idea what you're talking about?

Seriously you're spouting paranoia like a less smart 60's Paisley.

Stop embarrassing yourself with your fantasies of violence. Stop living in the past. The conflict is over.

So when there is United Ireland, the violent loyalist headcases will do nothing?

Are you for real?

K-9 · 16-11-2011 09:04PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

It will happen when the Catholics become the majority. Referendum held - case closed. Then there will be a civil war.

I can't see it when it's 50.1%!

I'd say it would need to be at least 55% and probably about 60%.

Hal Emmerich · 16-11-2011 09:08PM

For Deliverme.ie alone I hope it doesn't happen.

The Golden Miller · 16-11-2011 09:28PM

snafuk35 wrote: »

So when there is United Ireland, the violent loyalist headcases will do nothing?

Are you for real?

well what would they do exactly. ye you'll get a lot out rioting and some splinter loyalist paramilitaries but it would be nothing compared to what went on for the past 50 years or so

MysticalRain · 16-11-2011 09:32PM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

well what would they do exactly. ye you'll get a lot out rioting and some splinter loyalist paramilitaries but it would be nothing compared to what went on for the past 50 years or so

You'd better hope so.

steve9859 · 16-11-2011 09:37PM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

well what would they do exactly. ye you'll get a lot out rioting and some splinter loyalist paramilitaries but it would be nothing compared to what went on for the past 50 years or so

Plus everyone, politicians, the people, unionists, republicans are going to have bigger things to think about for the next decade at least. Any riots are going to be around austerity, not a united Ireland. Even if were to ever happen, the economic crash has put the timing back by at least 30 years I would suggest. Which IMO is never plus another 30 years!

snafuk35 · 16-11-2011 10:10PM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

well what would they do exactly. ye you'll get a lot out rioting and some splinter loyalist paramilitaries but it would be nothing compared to what went on for the past 50 years or so

That's probably the same thing the Unionists were saying in 1968 when the Troubles started. They thought they had a handle on the Catholics and that the IRA were a spent force. Thought wrong didn't they?
All you need is a few committed fanatics and they can keep thousands of police and troops tied down. The Brits had Northern Ireland flooded with thousands of troops with armoured cars and helicopters and eaves dropping technology and even though they throw thousands in jails over the years, the conflict kept ticking over.
Look at the news of barracks closing in the south?
The Republic has no way of paying for the massive security bill of policing the north.
The Brits are still fighting the RIRA with massive amounts of money being spent trying to stop another big bombings and loyalist gangs control the drug trade.
It would be hard to bring in a truck container of guns but it's not impossible if they were smuggled hidden in a normal cargo.
It would be far handier to bring in guns one at a time or by fishing boat.
There's only a few short miles across the water.
British criminal gangs have no love for the IRA and they would be happy to supply guns on the black market. Parts of Eastern Europe are awash with guns and they don't care who they sell them to and in the Deep South of the United States with lots of God fearing Protestants you have ready made funding raising right there. Lots of the WASPs come originally from Scots Irish stock.

Chuck Stone · 16-11-2011 10:47PM

snafuk35 wrote: »

So when there is United Ireland, the violent loyalist headcases will do nothing?

Are you for real?

Okay lets play the crystal ball game.

First of all there'd have to be some major changes take place i.e. a huge economic dividend to attract a majority into voting for a UI.

That's not going to happen within the next 20 years unless we strike massive oil and gas fields or a 1000 ton meteorite of gold lands on Athlone.

A fully integrated and UI would come about in slow increments - it wouldn't be an overnight raid by big Gardai with thick Kerry accents saying 'right lads - take down those Unions Jacks'.

The six counties would probably have some sort of autonomy from Dublin for feckin' yonks. Perhaps even cantonisation of the staunchly Loyalist regions.

Cantonisation

A canton is an administrative division of a country, e.g., a region or state. The most internationally well-known cantons – the Swiss cantons – are theoretically partially sovereign states. Because cantons are generally relatively small in terms of area and population this kind of administrative form could be he best middle way between independent states and occupied territory or tribe-/village-level societies.

Canton or region is a quite good unit in relation to self-governance combining both possibility to local participatory democracy and global activities. Also it is called EU as Union of Regions. Today’s EU Aid does not necessary need state as partner or facilitator. Aid and cooperation can be e.g.

Between regions according their living conditions like high mountain regions or periphery regions
Between sectors like culture, health etc
Between field of activities like agriculture
Between private and public institutions like in science
Between NGOs of special interest
Canton can have many variations suitable to present day’s complex situations. It can be nation or sub-national unit as well than part of multinational state. If circumstances favor, it can also cover a region with many ethnic groups.

http://arirusila.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/cantonisation-%E2%80%93-a-middle-course-for-separatist-movements/

As I said before the million people (+) who identify themselves as being from the Unionist tradition would be a considerable voting force in a UI. Imo they'd have a far greater say over their future as 1 in 6 people on this island than 1 in 60 in the UK so it wouldn't be all bad.

Seriously, your pessimism is depressing. Try to think of solutions rather than reasons not to.

It was solution oriented thinking and action that brought an end to the violence, killing and discrimination in the north and long may it last for the people up there.

And for that reason.

I'm out.

snafuk35 · 16-11-2011 11:10PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Okay lets play the crystal ball game.

First of all there'd have to be some major changes take place i.e. a huge economic dividend to attract a majority into voting for a UI.

That's not going to happen within the next 20 years unless we strike massive oil and gas fields or a 1000 ton meteorite of gold lands on Athlone.

A fully integrated and UI would come about in slow increments - it wouldn't be an overnight raid by big Gardai with thick Kerry accents saying 'right lads - take down those Unions Jacks'.

The six counties would probably have some sort of autonomy from Dublin for feckin' yonks. Perhaps even cantonisation of the staunchly Loyalist regions.

As I said before the million people (+) who identify themselves as being from the Unionist tradition would be a considerable voting force in a UI. Imo they'd have a far greater say over their future as 1 in 6 people on this island than 1 in 60 in the UK so it wouldn't be all bad.

Seriously, your pessimism is depressing. Try to think of solutions rather than reasons not to.

It was solution oriented thinking and action that brought an end to the violence, killing and discrimination in the north and long may it last for the people up there.

And for that reason.

I'm out.

In 1914 the Irish Parliamentary Party were the dominant party in Ireland outside of Ulster. They were political monolith since the time Parnell. The majority of the Irish Volunteers were under the control appointees selected by John Redmond. They were pro-Home Rule and thousands of them enlisted in the British military. Prior to the Easter Rising only a rump of republicans and socialists (the ICA were actually the most organised the 1916 rebels) were prepared to use violence. Dublin Castle believed all they had to do was sweep up the leaders and the game was up.
The British had every reason to believe that they had the situation under control. The Irish seemed to be solidly behind the Great War and the fact that majority of the RIC and British Army in Ireland were actually Irish Catholics and Nationalists would have led most people without a crystal ball to believe that Ireland would remained a part of the UK like Scotland and Wales.

Supposing the next few decades led to an agreement to be part of a United Ireland - that's a big supposing but let's just run with it.

Supposing loyalists were in the rank of the Gardai and the Army and they had TDs in the Dail and were well represented in the Irish civil service and loyalists were playing in Croke Park etc the whole shebang.

But a rump of them would hold out - a few hundred or a few thousand and if they decided to launch a campaign of violence they might whip up dormant loyalism.

Irish nationalist Ireland was docile and obedient and saw its future within the British Empire as self-governing like Canada or Australia.

But 1916 and then the suppression of Dail Eireann and brutality by Crown forces changed all that and within the space of few years people in a radically changed reality.

The same could happen down the line if the loyalists ever ended up in a United Ireland.

Remember among the most republican part of Ireland in 1798 were Presbyterian and Protestant areas of Belfast, most of the leading United Irishmen were Protestants but within a century most of their class and their descendants were die-hard loyalists.

Chuck Stone · 16-11-2011 11:28PM

snafuk35 wrote: »

But a rump of them would hold out - a few hundred or a few thousand and if they decided to launch a campaign of violence they might whip up dormant loyalism.

But 1916 and then the suppression of Dail Eireann and brutality by Crown forces changed all that and within the space of few years people in a radically changed reality.

The same could happen down the line if the loyalists ever ended up in a United Ireland.

Two completely different scenarios. Back then the guys of 1916 were fighting for the concept of an Island called Ireland free from British rule and then the British executed them and enraged the entire country.

What exactly would a few thousand loyalists be fighting for in your dystopian vision of a UI gone badly wrong? Red white and blue kerbs?

KeithAFC · 17-11-2011 12:13PM

snafuk35 wrote: »

That's probably the same thing the Unionists were saying in 1968 when the Troubles started. They thought they had a handle on the Catholics and that the IRA were a spent force. Thought wrong didn't they?
All you need is a few committed fanatics and they can keep thousands of police and troops tied down. The Brits had Northern Ireland flooded with thousands of troops with armoured cars and helicopters and eaves dropping technology and even though they throw thousands in jails over the years, the conflict kept ticking over.
Look at the news of barracks closing in the south?
The Republic has no way of paying for the massive security bill of policing the north.
The Brits are still fighting the RIRA with massive amounts of money being spent trying to stop another big bombings and loyalist gangs control the drug trade.
It would be hard to bring in a truck container of guns but it's not impossible if they were smuggled hidden in a normal cargo.
It would be far handier to bring in guns one at a time or by fishing boat.
There's only a few short miles across the water.
British criminal gangs have no love for the IRA and they would be happy to supply guns on the black market. Parts of Eastern Europe are awash with guns and they don't care who they sell them to and in the Deep South of the United States with lots of God fearing Protestants you have ready made funding raising right there. Lots of the WASPs come originally from Scots Irish stock.

Absolutely agree. This naive assumption that Loyalist paramilitaries would struggle to find weapons is just that, very naive. It would just kick off again, to the degree that a United Ireland would just be in name. The people will never be united.

Tiocfaidh Armani · 17-11-2011 12:40PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

Absolutely agree. This naive assumption that Loyalist paramilitaries would struggle to find weapons is just that, very naive. It would just kick off again, to the degree that a United Ireland would just be in name. The people will never be united.

That really is their issue because if the people vote for someone you will have 10,000 armed Irish troops deployed there to enforce our new-found independence and there is nothing you could do about it and I’d imagine they wouldn’t have any issue in getting stuck into a few loyalist drug dealers with guns.

The people will be united one day when the idiots who live in loyalist areas realise their Crown cares not a jot about them and the working class interests are theirs regardless of what religion you are. It took a while to implant that hatred and it will take a while for people to realise the erroneousness of it all. It suits people like yours agenda to keep hatred and tribalism alive but people from loyalist estates now turn to nationalist politicians for help because their own aren’t very good so bit by bit those walls will come down and they’ll realise the stupidity of loyalty to a flag.

summerskin · 17-11-2011 12:43PM

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

That really is their issue because if the people vote for someone you will have 10,000 armed Irish troops deployed there to enforce our new-found independence and there is nothing you could do about it and I’d imagine they wouldn’t have any issue in getting stuck into a few loyalist drug dealers with guns.

The people will be united one day when the idiots who live in loyalist areas realise their Crown cares not a jot about them and the working class interests are theirs regardless of what religion you are. It took a while to implant that hatred and it will take a while for people to realise the erroneousness of it all. It suits people like yours agenda to keep hatred and tribalism alive but people from loyalist estates now turn to nationalist politicians for help because their own aren’t very good so bit by bit those walls will come down and they’ll realise the stupidity of loyalty to a flag.

I get it, people who think differently to you are idiots. Sound reasoning.

So are you not loyal to the flag of Ireland?

Iwasfrozen · 17-11-2011 12:47PM

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

That really is their issue because if the people vote for someone you will have 10,000 armed Irish troops deployed there to enforce our new-found independence and there is nothing you could do about it and I’d imagine they wouldn’t have any issue in getting stuck into a few loyalist drug dealers with guns.

The people will be united one day when the idiots who live in loyalist areas realise their Crown cares not a jot about them and the working class interests are theirs regardless of what religion you are. It took a while to implant that hatred and it will take a while for people to realise the erroneousness of it all. It suits people like yours agenda to keep hatred and tribalism alive but people from loyalist estates now turn to nationalist politicians for help because their own aren’t very good so bit by bit those walls will come down and they’ll realise the stupidity of loyalty to a flag.

Ireland doesn't have 10k soldiers spare to put into Northern Ireland and even if they did it wouldn't be enough. There were over 30k soldiers in the province during the 1970's. But it didn't do any good.

As for loyalists turning against the crown do you honestly believe that or are you just trying to convince yourself?

karma_ · 17-11-2011 12:51PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

Absolutely agree. This naive assumption that Loyalist paramilitaries would struggle to find weapons is just that, very naive. It would just kick off again, to the degree that a United Ireland would just be in name. The people will never be united.

At the height of the Troubles, the loyalist terrorists did struggle to get weapons, indeed, had it not been for collusion within the ranks of the UDR and lax security they would have found it even more difficult.

Tiocfaidh Armani · 17-11-2011 01:05PM

summerskin wrote: »

I get it, people who think differently to you are idiots. Sound reasoning.

So are you not loyal to the flag of Ireland?

Unionists are fine, loyalists are idiotic cretins. That clear it up. I disagree with unionists but they have political beliefs. Loyalists are knuckle dragging idiots.

summerskin · 17-11-2011 01:13PM

What about the flag? Are you loyal to the irish flag?

KeithAFC · 17-11-2011 01:15PM

karma_ wrote: »

At the height of the Troubles, the loyalist terrorists did struggle to get weapons, indeed, had it not been for collusion within the ranks of the UDR and lax security they would have found it even more difficult.

Loyalist paramilitaries got weapons from South Africa and other outlets. Like it has been said on the thread, the black market is exactly what would happen.

That really is their issue because if the people vote for someone you will have 10,000 armed Irish troops deployed there to enforce our new-found independence and there is nothing you could do about it and I’d imagine they wouldn’t have any issue in getting stuck into a few loyalist drug dealers with guns.

The people will be united one day when the idiots who live in loyalist areas realise their Crown cares not a jot about them and the working class interests are theirs regardless of what religion you are. It took a while to implant that hatred and it will take a while for people to realise the erroneousness of it all. It suits people like yours agenda to keep hatred and tribalism alive but people from loyalist estates now turn to nationalist politicians for help because their own aren’t very good so bit by bit those walls will come down and they’ll realise the stupidity of loyalty to a flag.

This myth that somehow lots of Unionists/Loyalists are voting for Sinn Fein is just ridiculous. Like when people claim the 1798 rebellion had the majority of Protestants behind them, another Republican myth.

United Ireland

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