Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

D'Agger · 15-11-2011 01:19PM

Kess73 wrote: »

If he were Belgian/French/German with the same track record in terms of performances to date to his name, then I reckon I would be laughed out of it for suggesting him as a great prospect costing £16m+.:D

Nah we all trust your scouting abilities Kess

Kess73 · 15-11-2011 01:27PM

PaulieC wrote: »

Nah we all trust your scouting abilities Kess

In fairness all the young players I mentioned are very highly rated and all have a good track record at their clubs and most have the same at full international level as well. My point is that they are the kind of players that would be great prospects not a guy who on a good day looks decent in his best position rather than very good or better in his best position.

I am just curious what has Henderson done on a regular basis in comparison to the players I named to be regarded as a top prospect? I can see an above average player in him, one that could do well if he had the right players around him to allow him to play, but I don't see a player who would be good enough to be the player that is good top do the same for others.

SlickRic · 15-11-2011 01:29PM

noodler wrote: »

Eeek does that mean he shouldn't get his game then?

not if the only place to play him is RM.

potentially he's better than Adam in there IMO. Adam, while decent for periods this season, and having the consistently good set-piece in his arsenal, labours us a little at times in the middle.

i think Henderson, this season, should be starting 15/20 games, maybe coming on in as many as sub, and starting our Carling Cup games. all in the middle of the field.

Henderson is more mobile, has an excellent passing range, breaks into the box, and should be encouraged to use those skills from the middle as much as possible. he's just not a right winger. if the plan was to play him at RM all year, and not have him in the middle, then he shouldn't have been bought.

Chucky the tree · 15-11-2011 01:54PM

Henderson looks far to lightweight to play in the middle consistently for us. Another few years and hopefully getting stronger and he should be. He was always bought to play in the middle but like most young players then end up playing out of position simply to get game time.

opr · 15-11-2011 02:02PM

Kess73 wrote: »

In fairness all the young players I mentioned are very highly rated and all have a good track record at their clubs and most have the same at full international level as well. My point is that they are the kind of players that would be great prospects not a guy who on a good day looks decent in his best position rather than very good or better in his best position.

I am just curious what has Henderson done on a regular basis in comparison to the players I named to be regarded as a top prospect? I can see an above average player in him, one that could do well if he had the right players around him to allow him to play, but I don't see a player who would be good enough to be the player that is good top do the same for others.

Come on Kess you are being extremely harsh and unbalanced when comparing other players to Henderson. Henderson has always been very highly regarded at youth levels in international football. He has also played in one of the top leagues in the world holding down a regular starting place at only 20 years old and had a very good season with that team. Stories in the window before had already been linking him with the likes of Man City for similar money that we paid.

Most of the players you mention are playing in what I could call tier two leagues. Henderson has looked better in the recent under 21 games for a number of reasons and not just the position change. He is against poorer opposition at u21 level and seems generally more of a confident player. Put Henderson in the French or Belgium leagues I am not so sure he wouldn't stand out (Look at Joe Cole).

Opr

The Chessplayer · 15-11-2011 02:05PM

rarnes1 wrote: »

What exactly was Hendersons role last night in the game? How did England set up, was it a 4-4-2 ? Didn't see the game myself.

Henderson will play in the middle in time. Surely that's why he was bought. He's not a winger. Plus he's only 21. Patience is key.

England under 21s is nothing more than a reserve match.

Can we afford to play him in CM this season in a push for 4th place? Whatever about finishing ahead of Spurs, look at the momentum Arsenal are building, having lost their 2 best players!

Kess73 wrote: »

That is not to say that Henderson is sh1t, but I do feel that his abilities have been amplified by the English media/pundits to the point that there are unfair expectations in place that may be too much great for the player to reach.

Remember the way they used to go on about Redknapp who arguably never really stepped up to it...but at 21 he was a much much better player than Henderson is.

Henderson has done nothing. He had a flukey volley-cross assist a few weeks ago and Henderson loyalists were on here saying he is the greatest thing since the sliced pan.

One for the future? Give me Jonjo Shelvey any day.

The biggest cock up of Kenny & Comoli is that they have been too focused on a system rather than looking at what's best about the current crop. Meireles scored a rake of goals for Kenny. Aquilani was our best player in pre-season by a mile. The 2 years that it takes lads like Henderson & Carroll to get up to speed may cost us champions league football.

Many people talk about player depreciation and the advantages of buying young English players for their sell-on value. The penalty of not qualifying for the champions league cancels out this bonus. You could also look at it as a defeatist policy, in that John Henry and co don't expect us to qualify, therefore splashing out on a Henderson is a safe bet because regardless of how sh!t him and Carroll are they will still represent a good value on the balance sheet if the club is sold on etc.

opr · 15-11-2011 02:13PM

Just to add a bit of balance to the Shelvey debate here is a piece by someone who has actually watched him play full games since his arrival at Blackpool. I have to admit all I know is he is scoring goals and have seen the highlights but haven't actually caught any of Blackpool games.

Most eagerly anticipated upon his arrival was Shelvey. Physically he looks strong and imposing; standing around six feet tall and well developed muscularly fitting the archetypal model of a young English footballer. He has good pace and his stamina looks strong right to the last minute. There are very few doubts about him physically. However, Shelvey may still be developing mentally, both as an adult and as a footballer. The following quote from him lends an insight in to his mind;

“I DIDN’T KNOW UNTIL I GOT IN AT HALF-TIME AND SOMEONE MENTIONED THE SENDING OFF. I THOUGHT THEY WERE PLAYING WITH 11 … OBVIOUSLY I’M THAT THICK!”

This hints at a lack of intelligent thought on the pitch and is possibly an area of concern and could be retrograde to his development and success back at his parent club. At the level that Liverpool aspires to they need intelligent players off and on the pitch. However, he clearly understands space and exploitation of opportunity and with his physical attributes he can seize moments in games and has already shown his willingness to try to dominate by calling for the ball and attempting to command his team mates. He appears to have a strong drive and winning mentality and perhaps this will override his other mental shortcomings.

His first few appearances for the Tangerines saw him take his place in the midfield and whilst his positional sense is solid, his attacking instincts can see him lose his shape in an orthodox midfield three. He has a good range of passing, but his timing and selection of pass is inconsistent. Also, as with Ince whilst his first touch is good it also lacks consistency. In low pressure games, he could easily dominate, however, should a team sense him ponder they could easily throw him off his stride. During the game against Burnley this happened, and he was soon taken out of the midfield as Holloway switched to a conventional 4-4-2 with Shelvey taking up position wide left. Here he looked like he appreciated facing the play with the ball coming on to him and in behind the defence, as well as trying to isolate his opponent in one v one situations.

As has been seen with the goals he has scored he can shoot with both power and accuracy and he appears to be a natural goal scorer, in fact it could be argued that he has the skill set for a central forward role. He can play with his back to goal, he can use his strength to dominate a centre back, drop deep to receive and create both from deep and further up the pitch. In fact in the last two matches he has been taking up position as one of the wide forwards which has seen Blackpool win twice and Shelvey grab a hat trick against Leeds United. Arguably Blackpool’s midfield has been a more coherent unit without him in there, but it has also left him in a position which appears more natural for him. Finally, his tackling is good enough for midfield, but a real concern is his recklessness in the challenge. Against Burnley, he went in to a challenge without looking and went over the top of the ball and put his opponent in danger and he should have been sent off.

Shelvey is only at Blackpool for two more months, but already he has enjoyed some success (5 goals in 7 games), when he returns to Liverpool it is unlikely that he will be ready for first team action right away and another spell at Bloomfield Road (or another club) would help him develop even more. Whatever happens, Liverpool has a versatile attacking talent, who, should he mature and deepen his understanding of the game could prove to be useful for them in the long term. However, given Liverpool’s aspirations and the distance Shelvey has to develop to reach their level it wouldn’t be a surprise if he was allowed to leave Anfield in the summer.

http://www.tangerinedreaming.com/reds-to-bloom-in-tangerine/

Opr

D'Agger · 15-11-2011 02:19PM

The Chessplayer wrote: »

England under 21s is nothing more than a reserve match.

I'm a huge fan of Shelveys but it can be argued here that if u21s is such a low footballing level - why isn't Shelvey on the panel?

Kess73 · 15-11-2011 02:19PM

opr wrote: »

Come on Kess you are being extremely harsh and unbalanced when comparing other players to Henderson. Henderson has always been very highly regarded at youth levels in international football. He has also played in one of the top leagues in the world holding down a regular starting place at only 20 years old and had a very good season with that team. Stories in the window before had already been linking him with the likes of Man City for similar money that we paid.

Most of the players you mention are playing in what I could call tier two leagues. Henderson has looked better in the recent under 21 games for a number of reasons and not just the position change. He is against poorer opposition at u21 level and seems generally more of a confident player. Put Henderson in the French or Belgium leagues I am not so sure he wouldn't stand out (Look at Joe Cole).

Opr

None of the players I mentioned are playing in the Belgian league and only one (Hazard) is from Belgium. I know some of them are playing in lower leagues like the French league, but some are standing out in Germany and Italy, and those in the tier two leagues are also standing out at full international level with a few of them being a year or two years younger than Henderson.

If you think Henderson is as good right now and is as much of a prospect as say M'Vila, then fair enough, but I just think that his nationality has had a hell of a lot to do with him being overpriced and overrated to a degree.

Now that is not the player's fault, and as I said earlier I do think that it places a lot of unfair expectation upon the player in terms of how good he has to turn out.

Fair enough Henderson looks better when he plays at under 21 level, but he does not transfer any of that form on a regular basis to when he is playing against all ages in a Liverpool shirt. If we are going to use under 21 level as some kind of guage of a player's ability then you cannot discount how a player does playing in competitive games in a tier two league as being any lower a standard.

The crux of my arguement is not that I think Henderson is a poor player because I don't think he is. It is not that I think he cannot become a good player, because he might. But it is that I think he is somewhat overrated based on what he has shown as a player to date, and how he seems to need to play at a lower level to fit in rather than stand out. Let's not kid ourselves and try to claim that he is outstanding at under 21 level, he is good at that level but not an outstanding player at that level in the manner that most of the top prospects seem to be.

But I hope that in two, three, four or however many years time I am eating humble pie on the player and that he turns out to be a really good or better midfielder who has people saying that he was a bargain buy in relation to how good he turned out.

opr · 15-11-2011 02:33PM

In fairness he had four assists in his last two u21 games and was voted MOTD in the first so I think it's fair to say he does stand out at that level when you also consider before he joined Liverpool other top clubs had been sniffing round him. I am under no illusions that he has been shockingly bad for the most part in a Liverpool shirt but he is a 21 year old kid adjusting to a new club with much greater expectations than his previous one and it would seem playing out of position for the most part.

Opr

The Chessplayer · 15-11-2011 02:35PM

opr wrote: »

Put Henderson in the French or Belgium leagues I am not so sure he wouldn't stand out (Look at Joe Cole).

Opr

It's an interesting point. Many players are at their best when they play the main man role in a team. You need only look at England to see a few examples...Lampard, Gerrard. Must be a different ball game for Henderson playing at Liverpool after Sunderland where his teammates would've been seeking him out constantly throughout every game.

PaulieC wrote: »

I'm a huge fan of Shelveys but it can be argued here that if u21s is such a low footballing level - why isn't Shelvey on the panel?

Good point. I'm not sure to be honest. Pearce is a bit of a plonker but still I would've thought Jonjo'd get a look in. Out of Shelvey and Henderson, I can't see both of them making it at Liverpool.

15-11-2011 02:35PM

When Gerrard was Shelveys age he'd broken into the team iirc, and by Hendersons age he was a regular.

Obviously, some players take longer to mature but playing them in their strongest position would certainly be a start.

Could do with another young version of Gerrard tbh

mike65 · 15-11-2011 02:38PM

PaulieC wrote: »

I'm a huge fan of Shelveys but it can be argued here that if u21s is such a low footballing level - why isn't Shelvey on the panel?

He is. Was on stand-by for the game against Iceland, not sure for Belgium.

http://www.soccerway.com/teams/england/england-under-21/

opr · 15-11-2011 02:41PM

PaulieC wrote: »

I'm a huge fan of Shelveys but it can be argued here that if u21s is such a low footballing level - why isn't Shelvey on the panel?

Scotland are trying to get him to declare for them.

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news/scots-fancy-jonjo-but-no-coates

Opr

D'Agger · 15-11-2011 02:42PM

rarnes1 wrote: »

When Gerrard was Shelveys age he'd broken into the team iirc, and by Hendersons age he was a regular.

Obviously, some players take longer to mature but playing them in their strongest position would certainly be a start.

Could do with another young version of Gerrard tbh

This is the problem though, the pressure on young players coming through to be on the same growth and development curve as a world class player like Gerrard is hilarious.

We're living in an age where if you're not as good as Fabregas was at 16, as Gerrard was at 19 or as Messi was at 21 - you're not very good.

D'Agger · 15-11-2011 02:44PM

opr wrote: »

Scotland are trying to get him to declare for them.

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news/scots-fancy-jonjo-but-no-coates

Opr

He's as London as they come though! Would be hilarious to see him interacting with the scots tbh

The Chessplayer · 15-11-2011 02:45PM

opr wrote: »

Scotland are trying to get him to declare for them.

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news/scots-fancy-jonjo-but-no-coates

Opr

I remember a good few skangers called John Joe growing up. I wonder have the FAI looked into his lineage

SlickRic · 15-11-2011 02:51PM

PaulieC wrote: »

We're living in an age where if you're not as good as Fabregas was at 16, as Gerrard was at 19 or as Messi was at 21 - you're not very good.

yup, and it's pathetic.

the lad has a good chance. he's good technique, a very good passing range, a good engine, and an eye for goal. if he ups his strength, as well as his bravery in his decision making, i see no reason he can't go on to be a very good player in years to come.

let's just park the "NOW, NOW, NOW" attitude.

it's the same issue that's killing Andy Carroll's credibility in many people's eyes.

others will disagree with whether he will turn out to be great, and that's fine, but IMO he deserves a chance to prove himself in his best position.

The Chessplayer · 15-11-2011 02:53PM

PaulieC wrote: »

This is the problem though, the pressure on young players coming through to be on the same growth and development curve as a world class player like Gerrard is hilarious.

Good enough for them. Otherwise their lives would be fairly handy. The likes of Shelvey would be filthy rich and would be banging a few models as well no doubt. If not for the football he'd be unemployed and single and probably be using his Da's Fiesta instead of his own turbo powered sports car.

Pressure is Stephen Cluxton taking the last minute free against Kerry in the All-Ireland.

Kess73 · 15-11-2011 02:58PM

PaulieC wrote: »

This is the problem though, the pressure on young players coming through to be on the same growth and development curve as a world class player like Gerrard is hilarious.

We're living in an age where if you're not as good as Fabregas was at 16, as Gerrard was at 19 or as Messi was at 21 - you're not very good.

Not at all. That line gets trotted out in defence of players as often as " Form is temporary, Class is permanent" cliche.

Every young player is not expected to be great or even very good at certain ages, but the player in question today, Henderson, has been touted as a great prospect, a top prospect and various other compliments of a high nature. Generally to get such compliments you have had to have shown an unusual amount of talent and form at a young age. Henderson for me has not shown that unusually high level of talent or form from a young age like those you mentioned, but because the English media have played a big part in having "great prospect" or "next Steven Gerrard" mentioned with regards to Henderson, I feel that he has become a player whose potential has been unfairly exaggerated to a level that the player may struggle to come close to realising.

D'Agger · 15-11-2011 03:12PM

Kess73 wrote: »

Not at all. That line gets trotted out in defence of players as often as " Form is temporary, Class is permanent" cliche.

Every young player is not expected to be great or even very good at certain ages, but the player in question today, Henderson, has been touted as a great prospect, a top prospect and various other compliments of a high nature. Generally to get such compliments you have had to have shown an unusual amount of talent and form at a young age. Henderson for me has not shown that unusually high level of talent or form from a young age like those you mentioned, but because the English media have played a big part in having "great prospect" or "next Steven Gerrard" mentioned with regards to Henderson, I feel that he has become a player whose potential has been unfairly exaggerated to a level that the player may struggle to come close to realising.

TBQH - I've haven't heard him touted as the next Gerrard or overhyped atall - the most I've heard about Henderson was during his time at Sunderland that he was showing great promise for a young player in the premier league. Any LFC mates of mine have said that he's a future buy, he needs to develop still etc. yet I come on here and see people whining that he's not the complete package yet.

The players I've heard being touted as the next big thing coming through are Wilshire, Ramsey, Sterling is getting it - and also - I bigged up Pacheco on this thread quite a bit.

When they make the step up they're expected to slot right in and it doesn't happen straight away for them.

Henderson is a good prospect, and what I mean by that is he has the potential to be a very good player for Liverpool.

There's a difference in pointing out that a player has the potential to be very good and saying that he's definitely going to be good. I really don't think Hendersons ability has been exaggerated all that much barring when he got a call up by Capello last season and the media did what it does best - splooged about the future of English football.

D'Agger · 15-11-2011 03:13PM

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Good enough for them. Otherwise their lives would be fairly handy. The likes of Shelvey would be filthy rich and would be banging a few models as well no doubt. If not for the football he'd be unemployed and single and probably be using his Da's Fiesta instead of his own turbo powered sports car.

Pressure is Stephen Cluxton taking the last minute free against Kerry in the All-Ireland.

I really don't know what to make of this tbh it just read's like the ramblings of an aul fella on the sidelines of a GAA junior b match

Kess73 · 15-11-2011 03:20PM

SlickRic wrote: »

yup, and it's pathetic.

the lad has a good chance. he's good technique, a very good passing range, a good engine, and an eye for goal. if he ups his strength, as well as his bravery in his decision making, i see no reason he can't go on to be a very good player in years to come.

let's just park the "NOW, NOW, NOW" attitude.

it's the same issue that's killing Andy Carroll's credibility in many people's eyes.

others will disagree with whether he will turn out to be great, and that's fine, but IMO he deserves a chance to prove himself in his best position.

I agree that the only way to find out how good a player can be in what is seen to be that player's best position is to play the player, but no player deserves a chance, he has to earn it.

You say that Henderson has a good engine, a very good passing range, good technique and an eye for goal. I say he has not shown that good technique in a red shirt. He has certainly not shown that good engine on a regular basis, and his very good passing range is debatable until he actually shows it in a Liverpool shirt.

I have seen him a number of times this year from being at the ground watching games, and I have rarely seen a player so disinterested in getting involved in the game, and so switched off when it came to positioning. I have not see this very good passing range you have seen, I have not seen anything out of the ordinary in terms of technique and his good engine is niot something he has shown much of either. I cannot say for certain that he does not possess those qualities though in terms of being able to show them on a regular basis at some point in his career, but he has certainly not shown them on such a regular basis to date that he can be said to have them on tap.

I think the main problem with players like Henderson is not the fact that people think he should be as good as Messi, Gerrard or whomever at a certain age, but rather that regardless of what form he shows at club level he will have a number of people who complain that others are expecting too much from him whilst at the same time talking up his talents as if he were a player who has been performing consistently well for a time, something he has not done. He is either this great prospect with very good current talents that he shows on the pitch on a regular basis now or he is not, people cannot have it both ways on the guy. People cannot claim he has all these great abilities and qualities and still trot out the young player still learning blah blah blah lines when the player does not show those qualities even on a semi regular basis.

For me personally, right now he is an unproven player who has time on his side to improve as a player, and with luck he will improve to a large degree, but he is also one who has had his abilities, potential, and price blown out of proportion thanks in no small part to both his nationality and the English media. I think anyone who comes out and makes claims of how he is currently a great prospect with very good present day attributes are just as misguided as those who come out and write the guy off totally.

noodler · 15-11-2011 03:23PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Henderson looks far to lightweight to play in the middle consistently for us. Another few years and hopefully getting stronger and he should be. He was always bought to play in the middle but like most young players then end up playing out of position simply to get game time.

And he's gay!

Kess73 · 15-11-2011 03:30PM

PaulieC wrote: »

TBQH - I've haven't heard him touted as the next Gerrard or overhyped atall - the most I've heard about Henderson was during his time at Sunderland that he was showing great promise for a young player in the premier league. Any LFC mates of mine have said that he's a future buy, he needs to develop still etc. yet I come on here and see people whining that he's not the complete package yet.

The players I've heard being touted as the next big thing coming through are Wilshire, Ramsey, Sterling is getting it - and also - I bigged up Pacheco on this thread quite a bit.

When they make the step up they're expected to slot right in and it doesn't happen straight away for them.

Henderson is a good prospect, and what I mean by that is he has the potential to be a very good player for Liverpool.

There's a difference in pointing out that a player has the potential to be very good and saying that he's definitely going to be good. I really don't think Hendersons ability has been exaggerated all that much barring when he got a call up by Capello last season and the media did what it does best - splooged about the future of English football.

I do agree with a lot of what you just said there, but I disagree on the bit about his ability, or at least his current ability, being exaggerated. Slick, just to use his opinion in this thread as it is similar to what I have seen elsewhere, has come out and said that Henderson has a good engine, has good technique, and has a very good passing range. Not has the potential for all of those things, but has them right now. If he had those three qualities to that degree then I think he would have looked much better on the pitch for Liverpool despite playing at RM. I think that he might go on to have those qualities, but I don't think he has them right now in terms of being able to use them at first team level on a regular basis.

I just think that Henderson is becoming a player that cannot be discussed without having somewhat extreme views about him surface. He is either this currently good to very good player who has the potential to be much better, or he is shyte and a waste of money.

He is not shyte in my eyes, but he is certainly not currently a good player either.

Kess73 · 15-11-2011 03:31PM

noodler wrote: »

And he's gay!

Did the "big news" about the player that was hinted at on here yesterday or the day before ever come out or was it just bullcrap?

Pun intended.

Kess73 · 15-11-2011 03:33PM

And thank you to the smartarse who sent me a PM saying that if a certain poster is agreeing with me on a topic then I must be wrong in my opinion.

15-11-2011 04:12PM

PaulieC wrote: »

This is the problem though, the pressure on young players coming through to be on the same growth and development curve as a world class player like Gerrard is hilarious.

We're living in an age where if you're not as good as Fabregas was at 16, as Gerrard was at 19 or as Messi was at 21 - you're not very good.

That's very true.

SlickRic · 15-11-2011 04:31PM

Kess73 wrote: »

You say that Henderson has a good engine, a very good passing range, good technique and an eye for goal. I say he has not shown that good technique in a red shirt. He has certainly not shown that good engine on a regular basis, and his very good passing range is debatable until he actually shows it in a Liverpool shirt.

i maintain that most times he has played centrally in a red shirt, either in pre-season, or against Man Utd coming on late, he's shown himself to have some promise.

yes, i have to concede he has not shown enough in a red shirt at all yet, but i don't think he's been quite given the chance to. i know it must be earned, but it can't be earned being played out of position constantly. he's obviously shown enough to continuously be picked in the team. IMO, he needs to be picked in the team, occasionally, instead of Adam; especially whenever we play 4-4-2 with Carroll and Suarez up top, as Adam really does flatter to deceive much of the time.

noodler · 15-11-2011 04:34PM

PaulieC wrote: »

This is the problem though, the pressure on young players coming through to be on the same growth and development curve as a world class player like Gerrard is hilarious.

We're living in an age where if you're not as good as Fabregas was at 16, as Gerrard was at 19 or as Messi was at 21 - you're not very good.

See I think you are obviously using hyperbole to make your point.

Moreover, spending 20m or 35m on players who are 20+ does necessitate some kind of instant return.

We aren't talking about some teenagers we got for free.

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

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