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More Student Protests Over Fees? Hmph.

245

Comments

  • #32
    avalon68
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 689 ✭✭✭avalon68


    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

    It's clear that the system needs reform to get rid of these wasters, and retain the good students, irrespective of their families wealth. I reckon a graded fees system could work. If you family earns under X, the 0% fees. If they earn under Y, then 50% fees, etc, etc, etc.

    I agree with your analysis up to this point - I dont see how a graded fee system would cut the wasters. I would much rather see a loan system put in place, but say the people with the top 10% marks in the course get a reduced interest rate, or reduced fee rate, or scholarship....that would be some incentive to bright students. Wasters come from all walks of life, rich and poor alike - we need to get away from the idea that only rich people should pay for college. Everyone receives the same degree at the end of the course, it should have equal cost to all. Its the fairest way. At the age of entering college most individuals are 18 yrs old, or nearly 18 at least.....That is, they are legally adults, choosing to further their education and future employment prospects. The onus should not be on the parents to provide for them any longer, but on the student to assess what course they wish to study, the future prospects of the course, and how they will pay for it. A loan system available to everyone who attains the grades to go to university would be the best solution in my opinion. It gives everyone an equal opportunity to attend college. Another area that could be looked at to reduce overall costs is student accommodation - I realize a lot of people live in private rented accommodation, but the university owned accommodations are ridiculously expensive, and perhaps some sort of subsidy could be applied in that area to help reduce overall costs....just a thought. I recall when I was in college accommodation was the biggest cost to me.


  • #33
    The Volt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭The Volt


    Whatever your stance is on third level funding, there's something disgusting about someone who earns that much money telling people to take their medicine. What's necessary is wiping that smug look off his face.



    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1112/breaking6.html


  • #34
    avalon68
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 689 ✭✭✭avalon68


    Voltwad wrote: »
    Whatever your stance is on third level funding, there's something disgusting about someone who earns that much money telling people to take their medicine. What's necessary is wiping that smug look off his face.



    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1112/breaking6.html


    +100%. His argument is that he would earn more as a doctor......off you go I say. Sad reality is we will be paying his wages either way!


  • #35
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    Voltwad wrote: »
    Whatever your stance is on third level funding, there's something disgusting about someone who earns that much money telling people to take their medicine. What's necessary is wiping that smug look off his face.

    For someone whoose dying for fees the fact that he won't even consider reducing his salary is just repugnant. Even €60,000 lobbed off his earnings could fund 3 students for 4 years of study if his hoped for dream comes off, absolutely disgusting.


  • #36
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Voltwad wrote: »
    Whatever your stance is on third level funding, there's something disgusting about someone who earns that much money telling people to take their medicine. What's necessary is wiping that smug look off his face.



    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1112/breaking6.html

    We want high level people to run universities. They have to be very well paid. 250K a year is really not that much money for these kinds of people. It's pretty unimaginable for 99% of the country that this can be the case but it bluntly is. They also deal with a large amount of crap due to having to manage the politics across the university in all the departments and have to deal with plenty of big egos and long running grudges between different heads of departments and all that.

    It's easy to take pot shots at these guys' pay but really, they exist in a different world financially to the rest of us and we just have to put up with that or accept lesser qualified people. Running a college is definitely not a trivial thing to do and really I can think of few more complicated things.


    If anything be bloody glad that college's pick their heads and they're not political appointees. That would just create an unholy mess.


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  • #37
    femur61
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭femur61


    nivekd wrote: »
    Care to give some examples?


    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/thirdlevel-colleges-paying-191-staff-over-euro150000-2880149.html

    Daniel Mc Connell wrote a piece highlighting the pay staff.


  • #38
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    As with any nominal grant system, a donation (yes, that's what it is) should only be given on a case-by-case basis following an application.

    My family pulled out every stop to pay my college fees in addition to the amount I paid by working (pub work etc).

    Why does Paddy Typical always expect everything for nothing? The state assists in primary and secondary education if need be. University or any other third-level education is an optional addition, not an obligation.
    If you want it, pay your own way.

    My view anyway.


  • #39
    DB21
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,715 ✭✭✭DB21


    Once again, I love how the "back in my day" crowd, and the usual anti-anytingbutmyowninterests crowd are saying get a job. THERE IS A 14.4% UNEMPLOYMENT RATE, AND THAT'S WITHOUT EMIGRATION. THERE ARE NO JOBS TO BE FOUND THAT CAN BE WORKED AROUND COLLEGE HOURS. I hope that was clear enough.


  • #40
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    southsiderosie wrote: »
    But at the time it seems they were overpaid relative to their UK and American counterparts, and I think that is the more accurate comparison, both in terms of university rankings, and in terms of the Anglophone job market.
    What has Anglophone got to do with anything? Do you really think Irish students are incapable of moving to non-English speaking countries? They do it all the time!
    I suppose you think the average wage in the Congo should be the same as in France then?


  • #41
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    JustinDee wrote: »
    My family pulled out every stop to pay my college fees in addition to the amount I paid by working (pub work etc).

    Why does Paddy Typical always expect everything for nothing?
    Right, so because your family could afford to put you through college every other family can afford likewise.
    Now I know why our TDs think everything in the country is fine.:D


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  • #42
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Voltwad wrote: »
    Whatever your stance is on third level funding, there's something disgusting about someone who earns that much money telling people to take their medicine. What's necessary is wiping that smug look off his face.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1112/breaking6.html
    Jaysus, so if Bill Gates took over as President of UCC we'd have to stump up €5 billion a year salary for him? What BS logic.


  • #43
    RMD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,662 ✭✭✭RMD


    One of the Scandinavian countries has the best system I've heard of. It's a loan based system spread of 4 years of education, but if you pass your exams with a 2.1 I think it's reduced by 25% for said year. Pass all 4 years with a 2.1 or better and you pay no fees, provides a serious incentive to work.


  • #44
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    RMD wrote: »
    One of the Scandinavian countries has the best system I've heard of. It's a loan based system spread of 4 years of education, but if you pass your exams with a 2.1 I think it's reduced by 25% for said year. Pass all 4 years with a 2.1 or better and you pay no fees, provides a serious incentive to work.
    But in Ireland that system would be shot to pieces with backhanders for grades.
    You know it.


  • #45
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Right, so because your family could afford to put you through college every other family can afford likewise.
    Now I know why our TDs think everything in the country is fine.:D
    You don't know what they can afford or not. I never said it was easy. Also take note that I worked too.


  • #46
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    DB21 wrote: »
    Once again, I love how the "back in my day" crowd, and the usual anti-anytingbutmyowninterests crowd are saying get a job. THERE IS A 14.4% UNEMPLOYMENT RATE, AND THAT'S WITHOUT EMIGRATION. THERE ARE NO JOBS TO BE FOUND THAT CAN BE WORKED AROUND COLLEGE HOURS. I hope that was clear enough.

    Unemployment rate the year I started University (1988) was according to the CSO, The Economist archives and The Irish Times more than 16%. In 1992 when I graduated it was around 15.5%.
    Emigration was also very high. I myself left in '92 to live abroad but came back in 2005.
    As for work, pubs and restaurants for example still opened "AROUND COLLEGE HOURS". In fact, thats when they were actually busiest, even in economic climes like then and now.


  • #47
    Ostrom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,483 ✭✭✭Ostrom


    southsiderosie wrote: »
    Apparently students are planning another protest against fees.

    I have to say, I think this is stupid and pointless.

    As laudable as the sentiment behind no-fees university was (in some quarters anyway), the lack of fees has not increased enrollment among working class and poor students, and has essentially been a subsidy to families who could afford to send their kids to uni already. Many of these families used the extra savings to enroll their children in grinds and prep schools, raising their likelihood of outperforming other students on placement exams. In the meantime, Ireland's top university rankings have stagnated or fallen on average. So it is hard to see how no-fees has had any kind of broader benefit, from either a social mobility perspective or from a competitiveness perspective.

    In addition, third-level faculty are quite overpaid compared to their counterparts in peer institutions outside of Ireland, and the administrative overhead is ridiculous. There is a lot of fat that could be cut out of the system, and this could help at least keep fees relatively low. Yet that does not seem to be on the table. Hm.

    Finally, if there is going to be investment in education, it should target primary and secondary level - many graduates are woefully under-prepared for university, much less the working world. And if people are really interested in the educational attainment of poor kids, there needs to be more resources put into high-quality early childhood education, since it is almost too late by the time children start school at age 5 or 6. The "pipeline" issues into university do not start at the leaving certificate, they are already in motion at age 2.

    Frankly, I don't think the introduction of fees is problematic, as long as there is a financial aid system in place to provide loans and means-tested grants for very low income students. I don't see why students should not have some 'skin in the game' and take on some of the financial risk of third-level education, especially since there are clear lifetime financial rewards for uni graduates.

    Ultimately, I think these no-fee protests are misguided and myopic. But if anyone can make a case for them, I'd love to hear it.

    Would most of these issues not be addressed through reform of the grant system?


  • #48
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    JustinDee wrote: »
    You don't know what they can afford or not. I never said it was easy. Also take note that I worked too.
    Wow, that didn't take long to convince you. Thank you for being so open-minded.
    So you agree that nobody knows what the financial circumstances of a postgrad student are and whether they can afford a PhD or not...


  • #49
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    JustinDee wrote: »
    As for work, pubs and restaurants for example still opened "AROUND COLLEGE HOURS". In fact, thats when they were actually busiest, even in economic climes like then and now.

    To be fair, getting work in pubs/restaurants these days is nearly non-existent unless you have 2-3 years experience in many cases, an 18 year simply won't have this. I know this is the case, I spent the guts of a year looking for some form of employment to support me through college as I wasn't entitled to any form of grant whatsoever. Eventually I got office work which I actually really enjoy and suits my hours perfectly but there wasn't a glut of bars etc. needing staff.

    I'm still a bit 50-50 on the fees issue ( I prefer a loan style form of repayment I think) but am pointing out that the mantra of 'get a job' is not as easy as most people make out.


  • #50
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Wow, that didn't take long to convince you. Thank you for being so open-minded.
    So you agree that nobody knows what the financial circumstances of a postgrad student are and whether they can afford a PhD or not...
    I said that grants should depend on each case. Not some blanket no-frills entitlement to any old duffer for just going to flippin' college.


  • #51
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    efla wrote: »
    Would most of these issues not be addressed through reform of the grant system?

    No, none of them would from my reading of it. The grant system is outdated and unfair and needs to be abolished. What we replace it with is what needs to be discussed.


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  • #52
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    HavingCrack wrote: »
    To be fair, getting work in pubs/restaurants these days is nearly non-existent unless you have 2-3 years experience in many cases, an 18 year simply won't have this. I know this is the case, I spent the guts of a year looking for some form of employment to support me through college as I wasn't entitled to any form of grant whatsoever. Eventually I got office work which I actually really enjoy and suits my hours perfectly but there wasn't a glut of bars etc. needing staff.

    I'm still a bit 50-50 on the fees issue ( I prefer a loan style form of repayment I think) but am pointing out that the mantra of 'get a job' is not as easy as most people make out.
    I know what you mean but nobody said it was easy. Ease doesn't come into anything. I myself found it quite hard.
    There are plenty out there who turn their noses up to the likes of working alongside a college stint however.
    It isn't mantric to say that a student should also look for work to supplement their college career. Its common sense. The nation doesn't owe a third-level student a degree.
    The sense of entitlement and never-ending victimhood that grows amongst some when times get difficult however is getting tiresome at this juncture.


  • #53
    DB21
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,715 ✭✭✭DB21


    I have spent 2 years in Maynooth now, and in those two years, I have been looking for work both in Maynooth town and back home. I've gotten just two responses, both no. As for this sense of entitlement idea that we supposedly have, there are students trying to get by on less than €1 per day. If this was a third world country, there'd be talks of debt write-offs. But I guess we're all a bunch of pampered little twats?


  • #54
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    DB21 wrote: »
    I have spent 2 years in Maynooth now, and in those two years, I have been looking for work both in Maynooth town and back home. I've gotten just two responses, both no. As for this sense of entitlement idea that we supposedly have, there are students trying to get by on less than 1 per day. If this was a third world country, there'd be talks of debt write-offs. But I guess we're all a bunch of pampered little twats?
    If you're in Maynooth, you can also look for work in Dublin. Easy to get back from by bus, Nitelink or train in around 50 mins tops if working late.


  • #55
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    JustinDee wrote: »
    If you're in Maynooth, you can also look for work in Dublin. Easy to get back from by bus, Nitelink or train in around 50 mins tops if working late.
    If you don't mind spending 90% of what you earned on the busfare in and out that is.


  • #56
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    If you don't mind spending 90% of what you earned on the busfare in and out that is.
    You're exaggerating. Commuting is something almost everyone has to do, even with student discount travel. What you seem to want is everything at your doorstep.


  • #57
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    JustinDee wrote: »
    You're exaggerating. Commuting is something almost everyone has to do, even with student discount travel. What you seem to want is everything at your doorstep.
    I don't want anything, I'm well past the need for a grant.
    Personally I think NUIM should be scrapped, along with half the ITs. Too many third level institutions per person in Ireland. This would save money.
    As to the entitlement to free third level, why is this even assessed based on your parents? At 18 you are supposed to be deemed as independent. Otherwise everybody in the country should be means tested on their parents' income until the day they die!


  • #58
    DB21
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,715 ✭✭✭DB21


    Why would you scrap NUIM??? It's consistently one of the top ranked 3rd level institutions in the country.

    Also, the title of the topic is fantastic. How dare we students exercise our democratic right to protest?


  • #59
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    DB21 wrote: »
    Why would you scrap NUIM??? It's consistently one of the top ranked 3rd level institutions in the country.
    Out of how many? Where is it on the world ranking compared to the other universities?
    Look, I like NUIM and I know people there, students and staff, but if (as I'm being told) it's within a commute of Dublin it's pointless. Why double up on staff when you could amalgamate with UCD and save a packet?


  • #60
    avalon68
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 689 ✭✭✭avalon68


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I don't want anything, I'm well past the need for a grant.
    Personally I think NUIM should be scrapped, along with half the ITs. Too many third level institutions per person in Ireland. This would save money.
    As to the entitlement to free third level, why is this even assessed based on your parents? At 18 you are supposed to be deemed as independent. Otherwise everybody in the country should be means tested on their parents' income until the day they die!

    I think reintroduction of fees would take care of your first point - if the college doesnt take in enough revenue to fund the course then it simply wont be offered - without subsidization many of the currently offered courses would not survive.

    Re your second point - This needs to become the mindset of the future. Third level education is an investment in your future - its optional. People need to evaluate the benefit of the degree they wish to do rather than tumbling into college for a few years and coming out no better equipped/employable. You really only get out what you put in to college, and I feel that fees would certainly help focus the mind when choosing courses. I think at 18 years of age people should be able to fend for themselves. Putting a loan system in place would allow them to be financially independent of their parents.


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  • #61
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    efla wrote: »
    Would most of these issues not be addressed through reform of the grant system?

    If by reform you mean making it means tested and/or highly restricted, then yes. But a loan program would need to be put into place concurrently so that people who did not qualify for a grant could still go to university.
    DB21 wrote: »
    Also, the title of the topic is fantastic. How dare we students exercise our democratic right to protest?

    Nobody is saying you don't have a right to protest. All I'm saying is that I think protesting to favor of a no-fees scheme is misguided. Free speech is also a democratic right...


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