Is Irish actually spoken in the Gealtachts?

conor.hogan.2 · 13-11-2011 03:09AM

General Michael Collins wrote: »

A Couple of issues, 2 million plus 1.5 million bilingual out of 5 million - ~70%.

Secondly, this info is very hard to verify because it's based on estimates - and the eastern part of the country was the most populated - Dublin alone could account for a large part of the imbalance.

Thirdly, Mr. Ó Cuív is undoubtedly an authority on these matters, but I think the telling of this issue would be the break down of sources + geographical position of the language.

All in all, I still contest the point - To my mind there can be no doubt that the vast majority of English speakers lived on the east coast up until the mid 19th century. Taking Dublin and other Urbanised areas into account, 30% of the population seems reasonable for the East Coast.

Yes, as I said Irish was dangling in around 50% (lower if you count just irish speakers, higher if you count bi-linguals) before the famine. The point is in was in decline before the famine.

Ó Cúiv and fitzgerald and a lot of other people agree on this.

40% only spoke Irish before the famine (ie, the most irish speakers ever) so 30% outside of the east had started to move to english and the percentage of young adults, teens and children was much lower too.

General Michael Collins wrote: »

Disregarding FitzGerald's work - (I haven't read it) I agree with you on this.

I have not read it all either.

General Michael Collins · 13-11-2011 03:09AM

Interesting Map I found here, not sure where the stats come from...

HugoBradyBrown · 13-11-2011 03:11AM

General Michael Collins wrote: »

Disregarding FitzGerald's work - (I haven't read it) I agree with you on this.

I would suggest to all readers here seeking that document out - I recall reading it in the RIA series. it is, typically of the author, appropriately numerical in origin, but it is rigidly logical in its approach. It is likely to prove, in retrospect, to be his most enduringly valuable published work, amid a morass of books and articles.

conor.hogan.2 · 13-11-2011 03:17AM

http://ria.metapress.com/content/442841jlm7734227/

That is FitzGeralds work, if I am not mistaken? But costs 30 euro, unless you get it from a library.

HugoBradyBrown · 13-11-2011 03:28AM

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

http://ria.metapress.com/content/442841jlm7734227/

That is FitzGeralds work, if I am not mistaken? But costs 30 euro, unless you get it from a library.

Yes, but I think it was also published as a monograph, and so might be available in this form on, say, Abebooks.

The RIA house on Dawson Street is open to the public quite freely, so I would encourage readers to pop in. It's just a matter of pushing the always open door. They are very happy to accommodate visitors and readers. (Academy membership is harder to come by, unfortunately!)

The library would probably supply a photocopy of the article at a nominal charge to any interested person.

An gal gréine · 13-11-2011 12:10PM

There is plenty of food for thought in this thread but having been among the estimated 10,000 people at the annual Oireachtas na Gaeilge festival in Cill Airne last weekend it did'nt feel like a "safari park specimen" to me.
With the Gaeltachtaí rapidly becoming more and more bi-lingual, the undoubted wealth of Gaelic that is in use is being eroded with every generation. However, that does'nt mean extinction is on the cards. This is where the Galltacht comes in, and comes in strongly as all the indications are going in the opposite direction here. Belfast is leading the way. You cant call it a (traditional) Gaeltacht but it's the next best thing, imo.
We have all the language infrastructure in Ireland to be alive in 100 years time, but with lessened quality, I feel. One final point is that there are many throughout the land who can speak Irish but wont...this mindset is a massive challenge to the rest of us!

An gal gréine · 13-11-2011 12:21PM

General Michael Collins wrote: »

Interesting Map I found here, not sure where the stats come from...

This could'nt be pertaining to language...if it did every Leinster county would have equal or more speakers than Donegal!!!

deirdremf · 13-11-2011 12:58PM

General Michael Collins wrote: »

Rath Cairn survived, and does to this day, as a genuine Gaeltacht, but it needed a wealth of support to do this. Baile Ghib is a shadow of a Gaeltacht, though it should be more because people from almost every Irish dialect were shoved into an area together. The differences in language making life difficult, they resorted to the thing they had in common - English. Anecdotal evidence maybe, but worth your consideration, I'll warrant, before creating that Irish language zoo you were talking about.

This claim has been made again and again, but it is false.
English speaking families were included in the Baile Ghib settlement. As they didn't speak Irish, the common language became English.
Nevertheless, Irish remains in use there today.

deirdremf · 13-11-2011 12:59PM

General Michael Collins wrote: »

Interesting Map I found here, not sure where the stats come from...

It looks as though it's based on the last census, where IIRC Clare was returned as having a higher percentage of Irish speakers than any other county except Galway.

HugoBradyBrown · 13-11-2011 01:28PM

deirdremf wrote: »

It looks as though it's based on the last census, where IIRC Clare was returned as having a higher percentage of Irish speakers than any other county except Galway.

The map makes one thing clear, though not that is not the surface meaning of the map: it shows the meaninglessness of self-reporting language ability and language use.

Self-delusion, a wish to give some form of cost-free sentimental support to the language by bulking up figures, a wishful thinking mentality: these are what produce such at best highly subjective and in reality completely worthless statistics. All they measure is the self-delusion of the population. Consequently, people in resolutely monolingual counties like Clare imagine themselves to be Gaelic speakers. (They got subsidies and grants around Black Head in Clare until the 1950's, on the basis of falsely claiming to be a Gaeltacht.)

Only a professional survey by interview (preferably in Gaelic) will elicit the real results.

The Scientician · 13-11-2011 01:41PM

Of the few times I've had extended conversations as gaeilge as an adult, most have been with people in Northern Ireland. Northern Irish Gaeilgóirí don't seem to have the hangups a lot of non-native speaking southerners, including myself, do. It might be partially a superficial thing but I was delighted to see all the shop signs as Gaeilge on a recent visit to West Belfast.

I did my stint in Irish college in An Cheathrú Rua years ago and at that time (mid '90s) the local teenagers would refuse to speak Irish to you unless their parents were in earshot. A few years later I visited as an adult and staff in a local store were speaking English until the students came in. Passing through the Gaeltacht these days it's very easy to get the (hopefully erroneous) impression that nobody speaks Irish day-to-day anymore. As an outsider who isn't fluent in Irish, and has the aforementioned hangups, it's very hard to engage in Irish with people there. And unless someone is being deliberately difficult or is elderly, they're likely to speak in English to you if you speak in English to them.

General Michael Collins · 13-11-2011 01:47PM

An gal gréine wrote: »

This could'nt be pertaining to language...if it did every Leinster county would have equal or more speakers than Donegal!!!

This is the url : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Cainteoir%C3%AD_Gaeilge_-_Irish_Speakers.svg/300px-Cainteoir%C3%AD_Gaeilge_-_Irish_Speakers.svg.png

Seems out of joint with reality, doesn't it?

HugoBradyBrown · 13-11-2011 01:50PM

The Scientician wrote: »

Of the few times I've had extended conversations as gaeilge as an adult, most have been with people in Northern Ireland. Northern Irish Gaeilgóirí don't seem to have the hangups a lot of non-native speaking southerners, including myself, do. It might be partially a superficial thing but I was delighted to see all the shop signs as Gaeilge on a recent visit to West Belfast.

I did my stint in Irish college in An Cheathrú Rua years ago and at that time (mid '90s) the local teenagers would refuse to speak Irish to you unless their parents were in earshot. A few years later I visited as an adult and staff in a local store were speaking English until the students came in. Passing through the Gaeltacht these days it's very easy to get the (hopefully erroneous) impression that nobody speaks Irish day-to-day anymore. As an outsider who isn't fluent in Irish, and has the aforementioned hangups, it's very hard to engage in Irish with people there. And unless someone is being deliberately difficult or is elderly, they're likely to speak in English to you if you speak in English to them.

And, indeed, many of them have quite functional English, when pressed. But, of course, spoken slowly and loudly enough, English is comprehensible to everyone the world over, since it is just the vocalization of commonsense. Indeed, I sometimes suspect that everyone everywhere speaks it at home, but, as it were, pretends to speak something else in public!

The Scientician · 13-11-2011 02:09PM

HugoBradyBrown wrote: »

And, indeed, many of them have quite functional English, when pressed. But, of course, spoken slowly and loudly enough, English is comprehensible to everyone the world over, since it is just the vocalization of commonsense. Indeed, I sometimes suspect that everyone everywhere speaks it at home, but, as it were, pretends to speak something else in public!

Your schtick is a tad tiresome.

HugoBradyBrown · 13-11-2011 02:21PM

The Scientician wrote: »

Your schtick is a tad tiresome.

I was not referring to the Irish there, but to people speaking supposedly living languages worldwide.

As an instrument for communicating thoughts with the finest degrees of nuance and discrimination, English has never been surpassed, because of its immense lexical range and the suppleness of its syntax. Small wonder that it is the lingua franca of all of humanity, as we strive to engage with each other across cultural and political boundaries. Such linguistic transparency is an objective support for human understanding, for the reduction in international tensions, and for the creation of a happier and economically more productive humanity.

It is the compartmentalization of humanity into exclusive and hermetically sealed linguistic cells that propels us to conflict, that reduces our economic activity and that puts us into the often self-seeking hands of translators and interpreters.

Floreat lingua Anglica!

The Scientician · 13-11-2011 03:07PM

Whereas a native German speaker can learn English happy in the knowledge their native tongue shan't be disappearing anytime soon, the same cannot be said for native speakers of endangered languages.

I think it'll be interesting to see the result of the current Gaelscoil movement in the next generation. Will kids who went to a gaelscoil send their kids to a gaelscoil?

Enkidu · 13-11-2011 03:42PM

HugoBradyBrown wrote: »

Small wonder that it is the lingua franca of all of humanity, as we strive to engage with each other across cultural and political boundaries.

English is the lingua franca because of the military power of the British Empire in the 19th Century, not because of some inherent superiority in the language itself. This kind of thinking, that English was "naturally" meant to be the language of humanity because it "makes the most sense", is imperialistic nonsense.

An gal gréine · 13-11-2011 04:09PM

The Scientician wrote: »

I did my stint in Irish college in An Cheathrú Rua years ago and at that time (mid '90s) the local teenagers would refuse to speak Irish to you unless their parents were in earshot. A few years later I visited as an adult and staff in a local store were speaking English until the students came in.

The teenagers were very keen to show you that they could speak English because in the past having only Irish there meant to others that they were backward and poor. As regards the store, I dont doubt that you heard those working there practising their English. How else will they master that language too? However, neither case shows that they are abandoning Irish.

HugoBradyBrown · 13-11-2011 04:16PM

An gal gréine wrote: »

The teenagers were very keen to show you that they could speak English because in the past having only Irish there meant to others that they were backward and poor. As regards the store, I dont doubt that you heard those working there practising their English. How else will they master that language too? However, neither case shows that they are abandoning Irish.

This is an important point. Gaelic-speaking children and teenagers should be encouraged at every opportunity to practice their English, since monolingualism could be mistaken in wider society as a sign of backwardness or of intellectual impairment.

When people have a major world language as well as a private or family language, they obviously have certain linguistic advantages, but it is crucial for their mental and career development that the greatest possible level of competence and fluency in the main medium of communication should be fostered.

This is why I have always been opposed to the prohibition of fluent English speakers from the East speaking English to the natives in the Gaeltacht, since what is possible if they do speak English is a mutually supporting two-way street of enhancement of language competence for both parties.

An gal gréine · 13-11-2011 04:25PM

dlofnep wrote: »

You'd be suprised in An Rinn. It's some of the blow ins that make the effort to speak Irish. I know a chap from Dublin who lives there, and he always uses Irish and has a real strong Blas na Rinne. "Thá" for example instead of "Tá".

Mooneys bar always has Irish speakers in it. There are of course stronger Gaeltachtaí than An Rinn, but the language isn't dead there at all.

I met said Dub there and he introduced me to all the Irish speakers in Mooney's which was many and I'll certainly be returning for more of the same.

An gal gréine · 13-11-2011 04:37PM

HugoBradyBrown wrote: »

This is why I have always been opposed to the prohibition of fluent English speakers from the East speaking English to the natives in the Gaeltacht, since what is possible if they do speak English is a mutually supporting two-way street of enhancement of language competence for both parties.

Is there or has there been such a prohibition outside of the Summer Colleges?
If it is really to be "two-way" then the Easterners going there will have some Irish I take it.

An gal gréine · 13-11-2011 04:53PM

HugoBradyBrown wrote: »

Was there once an urban Gaeltacht near Whitehall Cross, roughly behind the modern Viscount public house, stretching over towards St Aidan's School? It was reputed to be inhabited by civil servants. Perhaps it's an urban myth.

Dublin Corporation, now Dublin City Council, proposed such an estate decades ago but never followed through. They did give the roads Gaeltacht area names such as Iveragh Road, Falcarragh Road, Iveleary Road, Inishmaan Road, and Tourmakeady Road but it never otherwise got off the ground.

dlofnep · 13-11-2011 04:56PM

HugoBradyBrown wrote: »

This is why I have always been opposed to the prohibition of fluent English speakers from the East speaking English to the natives in the Gaeltacht, since what is possible if they do speak English is a mutually supporting two-way street of enhancement of language competence for both parties.

Nonsense. The Irish language is very rarely facilitated outside of An Ghaeltacht.

couldntthink · 13-11-2011 04:56PM

In my experience going to a Gaelscoil will never make you into a fluent, natural Irish speaker. All of my schooling was through Gaelscoils, and I've seen that no matter how good you are at Irish as a subject, the only way of becoming a natural speaker is by speaking and hearing it in ordinary everyday life, not in school. My secondary school was supposed to be a Gaelscoil but at least half of the teachers had little to no Irish. My primary school wasn't much better and both schools never enforced the "no english" rules that they had. The most fluent speakers were the ones who spoke Irish at home, and they were very few. My father is a good example, his mother had no Irish and his Dad died when he was very young. But in the 50's and 60's when he was growing up, everyone in my area spoke fluent Irish in everyday life so he learned it that way, as he had very little schooling. I wish he had spoken more Irish with me, I can't remember ever speaking irish with him. People using it everyday is the only way it will survive and that area is shrinking every year.

I live in what you could call the outskirts of the Gaeltacht. Most of the people from my area over 35 are fluent, and a lot of people's conversations are in Irish. But I can only think of a couple around my age (26) that are fluent. I'm not one of them, at most I would say I'm around the 60% level. I know a few people who have said they didn't speak any english until they were in their teens. It's only a matter of time before my area is no longer a Gaeltacht, and I think we should all be a little ashamed of what's happening. Like myself, most people my age going to school thought "what's the point". Only now do I appreciate it.

The Scientician · 13-11-2011 05:34PM

An gal gréine wrote: »

As regards the store, I dont doubt that you heard those working there practising their English. How else will they master that language too? However, neither case shows that they are abandoning Irish.

Having not quizzed them on the matter, I don't know if they were merely practicing their English or if it is typically their preferred mode of communicating amongst themselves. I think it is somewhat indicative that Irish is being abandoned if, all other things being equal, people born and bred in the Gaeltacht prefer to speak English amongst themselves.

An gal gréine · 13-11-2011 05:56PM

The Scientician wrote: »

Having not quizzed them on the matter, I don't know if they were merely practicing their English or if it is typically their preferred mode of communicating amongst themselves. I think it is somewhat indicative that Irish is being abandoned if, all other things being equal, people born and bred in the Gaeltacht prefer to speak English amongst themselves.

All other things being equal....that is what they want when they leave the area, to be as proficient in English as people in the rest of the country are. It is still recalled how Conamara people with no English were laughed at when they would venture into Galway city. The present generation wont have that.

General Michael Collins · 13-11-2011 06:35PM

Galway city is also a good place for Irish, come to think of it. Heard it spoken on two occasions while I was there last. Being bilingual doesn't necessarily make you less proficient in either tongue, if anything, the opposite is true.

deirdremf · 13-11-2011 06:35PM

The Scientician wrote: »

Whereas a native German speaker can learn English happy in the knowledge their native tongue shan't be disappearing anytime soon, the same cannot be said for native speakers of endangered languages.

I think it'll be interesting to see the result of the current Gaelscoil movement in the next generation. Will kids who went to a gaelscoil send their kids to a gaelscoil?

There are already loads of people who went through the Gaelscoil eanna in the 70s and 80s and have kids.
I have met many of them, and they send their kids to Gaelscoileanna.
Of course, there may be some out there who do not, but I get the impression that they are in the minority.
Not scientific, but for what it's worth ...

An gal gréine · 13-11-2011 06:44PM

General Michael Collins wrote: »

Galway city is also a good place for Irish, come to think of it. Heard it spoken on two occasions while I was there last. Being bilingual doesn't necessarily make you less proficient in either tongue, if anything, the opposite is true.

Agreed. Galway City has also changed a lot for the better in recent times with regard to positive reception of Irish.

deirdremf · 13-11-2011 06:52PM

HugoBradyBrown wrote: »

As an instrument for communicating thoughts with the finest degrees of nuance and discrimination, English has never been surpassed, because of its immense lexical range and the suppleness of its syntax. .....
Floreat lingua Anglica!

Probably (if true) because all languages are incredibly flexible etc.
One small question, though: where did it get "its immense lexical range" (to the extent that such exists)?
Mostly, I think from Latin, Greek and French - or in other words, it was lacking and rather than being able to develop it from its own resources, it went begging and robbing, with the result that in English we have hydrogen and oxygen, but in German they used their own resources and came up with wasserstoff and sauerstoff.
Now I'm not saying one is better than the other, but as you mentioned its lexical range, and supple syntax ...

Is Irish actually spoken in the Gealtachts?

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