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Is Irish actually spoken in the Gealtachts?

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  • #62
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,551 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    HugoBradyBrown wrote: »
    Well, no, not necessarily. One finds that, schoolteachers apart, the grammar and enunciation among the native speakers in the West often leaves a lot to be desired. The best Irish is in fact heard today in Glenageary, in Donnybrook and in Blackrock, counterintuitively.
    Enunciation to your ears perhaps,the best Irish is to be found with native speakers,of course.


  • #63
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    An gal gréine wrote: »
    On a recent short visit to An Rinn in Co. Waterford, I found Irish speakers sure enough but they have been surrounded by blow-ins who make no effort. In Ráth Cairn they have tight control of who moves in to their area.

    You'd be suprised in An Rinn. It's some of the blow ins that make the effort to speak Irish. I know a chap from Dublin who lives there, and he always uses Irish and has a real strong Blas na Rinne. "Thá" for example instead of "Tá".

    Mooneys bar always has Irish speakers in it. There are of course stronger Gaeltachtaí than An Rinn, but the language isn't dead there at all.


  • #64
    Fuinseog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    DeBrugha wrote: »
    Bearna isn't even in Connemara

    Bearna is Gaeltacht Cois Fharraige and part of South Conamara.


  • #65
    Fuinseog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Enunciation to your ears perhaps,the best Irish is to be found with native speakers,of course.

    what pray tell is a native speaker? These days there are urban Gaelatchtai.


  • #66
    Enkidu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    HugoBradyBrown wrote: »
    Well, no, not necessarily. One finds that, schoolteachers apart, the grammar and enunciation among the native speakers in the West often leaves a lot to be desired. The best Irish is in fact heard today in Glenageary, in Donnybrook and in Blackrock, counterintuitively.
    Are you sure? Can you give an example of such poor grammar and enunciation in native speakers from the West? Particularly the poor grammar?


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  • #67
    Rhedyn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54 ✭✭Rhedyn


    HugoBradyBrown wrote: »
    The best Irish is in fact heard today in Glenageary, in Donnybrook and in Blackrock.

    I won't be able to sleep tonight laughing.


  • #68
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,551 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Fuinseog wrote: »
    what pray tell is a native speaker? These days there are urban Gaelatchtai.
    Where?Our school is a Gaelscoil and many of our past pupils conduct part of their lives through Irish as much as possible, but we do not have an urban Gaeltacht.


  • #69
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Where?Our school is a Gaelscoil and many of our past pupils conduct part of their lives through Irish as much as possible, but we do not have an urban Gaeltacht.

    Belfast for one.


  • #70
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,551 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Define a Gaeltacht.To me it is where the vast majority of the people speak Irish as their everyday language and can conduct their lives for the most part through Irish.


  • #71
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Define a Gaeltacht.To me it is where the vast majority of the people speak Irish as their everyday language and can conduct their lives for the most part through Irish.

    That's pretty much what it is. But traditionally - Gaeltachtaí have been on the edges of nowhere, away from major cities and towns. An Urban Gaeltacht is an area within a large urban centre that does all of the above.

    There's one planned for Dublin, and 2 areas in Belfast which are very successful.


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  • #72
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,551 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Irish survived in poorer western areas that planters did not want to settle. I'm not sure if it is really possible to set up an urban Gaeltacht in this day and age, though I'd love to think it could be done, but not sure how it could work in reality.


  • #73
    HugoBradyBrown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 547 ✭✭✭HugoBradyBrown


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Irish survived in poorer western areas that planters did not want to settle. I'm not sure if it is really possible to set up an urban Gaeltacht in this day and age, though I'd love to think it could be done, but not sure how it could work in reality.

    Was there once an urban Gaeltacht near Whitehall Cross, roughly behind the modern Viscount public house, stretching over towards St Aidan's School? It was reputed to be inhabited by civil servants. Perhaps it's an urban myth.


  • #74
    Fuinseog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Where?Our school is a Gaelscoil and many of our past pupils conduct part of their lives through Irish as much as possible, but we do not have an urban Gaeltacht.

    Ballymun.
    A Gaeltacht doth be wher'er the langugae doth be spoken.


  • #75
    Fuinseog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Irish survived in poorer western areas that planters did not want to settle. I'm not sure if it is really possible to set up an urban Gaeltacht in this day and age, though I'd love to think it could be done, but not sure how it could work in reality.

    take a trip to west belfast


  • #76
    Enkidu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Belfast for one.
    Oh!, cool. What kind of Irish do they speak dlofnep? Has anybody been there?
    I'm really happy to hear Irish is doing well in Mayo, it's the next area I was going to visit as my granny was a native speaker from Erris.


  • #77
    Fuinseog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    Rhedyn wrote: »
    I won't be able to sleep tonight laughing.

    I believe it was Flann O Brien who said that good Irish was hard to understand , but the really good Irish was nigh on unintelligble. he meant it as a joke, but people still believe this is the way it should be.

    A Gaelgeoir does not have to be a fisherman living on the west coast in grey connemara clothes.

    This kind of linguistic intolerance is almost like saying someone who was born abroad to Irish parents is not really Irish


  • #78
    Enkidu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    Fuinseog wrote: »
    A Gaelgeoir does not have to be a fisherman living on the west coast in grey connemara clothes.
    True*, but I think a lot of people fall into the trap of thinking that people's Irish in the Gaeltachtaí is mumbled and hard to understand because it sounds weird or unlike the Irish they heard in school, when the "clear" Irish they're thinking of is only "clear" because it sounds like English and has grammar calqued from English.

    *Partially, you're also stereotyping people from Conamara.


  • #79
    HugoBradyBrown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 547 ✭✭✭HugoBradyBrown


    Enkidu wrote: »
    True, but I think a lot of people fall into the trap of thinking that people's Irish in the Gaeltachtaí is mumbled and hard to understand because it sounds weird or unlike the Irish the hard in school, when the "clear" Irish they're thinking of is only "clear" because it sounds like English and has grammar calqued from English.

    Yes, but, to be perfectly frank, there is a lot of suspicious muttering and mumbling, often through a stonehenge of distinctive dentition, and a sense that something is being kept from the "law braws'.


  • #80
    Enkidu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    HugoBradyBrown wrote: »
    Yes, but, to be perfectly frank, there is a lot of suspicious muttering and mumbling, often through a stonehenge of distinctive dentition, and a sense that something is being kept from the "law braws'.
    Isn't it more likely that that's just their pronunciation? I mean, why would you assume it's put on on purpose? Something I've read on boards before. I mean it's not really that different from the classical pronunciation.


  • #81
    HugoBradyBrown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 547 ✭✭✭HugoBradyBrown


    Enkidu wrote: »
    Isn't it more likely that that's just their pronunciation? I mean, why would you assume it's put on on purpose? Something I've read on boards before. I mean it's not really that different from the classical pronunciation.

    Sadly, my dear Enkidu, I think it at least plays into ill-informed perceptions of crafty, deceitful peasants, unwilling to articulate what they mean in the clear light of day. This may be wrong, and Connemara is clearly not Surrey, but we could do with a touch of clarity, even in a society with no tradition of elocution training or rhetoric.


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  • #82
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Irish survived in poorer western areas that planters did not want to settle. I'm not sure if it is really possible to set up an urban Gaeltacht in this day and age, though I'd love to think it could be done, but not sure how it could work in reality.

    It's not only possible, it's been done in Belfast and very successfully.


  • #83
    kilmac11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5 ✭kilmac11


    I'm from West Cork and I'd know Cape Clear well. Although still officially a Gaeltacht, in reality it isn't,all the children speak english on the island. Same can be said of the Mhuscraí Gaeltacht in Mid Cork, kinda sad really. On a brighter note I was in a pub last week in belfast and held a conversation with fellas from lennadoon as gaeilge, it was pidgin I admit. They said that it is increasing in use all the time in Belfast


  • #84
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Enkidu wrote: »
    Oh!, cool. What kind of Irish do they speak dlofnep? Has anybody been there?
    I'm really happy to hear Irish is doing well in Mayo, it's the next area I was going to visit as my granny was a native speaker from Erris.

    I've been there on a number of occasions. Mostly Ulster dialect. There's actually 2 gaeltacht areas in Belfast. Shaws Rd and Falls Rd. Shaws Road is alot of families that live on the same neighbourhood and operate completely through Irish. They have a Gaelscoil there also.

    The Fall's road Gaeltacht has a large Irish language centre (Culturlann) and is worth a visit!

    They are planning a development in Dublin for something similar to the Shaws Road Gaeltacht. It's supposed to be complete in the next year or so.


  • #85
    Enkidu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    HugoBradyBrown wrote: »
    This may be wrong, and Connemara is clearly not Surrey, but we could do with a touch of clarity, even in a society with no tradition of elocution training or rhetoric.
    Their Irish is native Irish, any study of the modern dialects shows that they have pretty much the same pronunciation as classical Irish. There's few differences, less R sounds, e.t.c., but it's proper Irish. If anybody is speaking without clarity it's us learners. I don't go to France and think people are being Anglophobic on purpose if they make "wierd sounds" I don't hear in English and are more difficult to understand than my French teachers at school.

    (Also Gaelic Ireland did have a tradition of rhetoric)


  • #86
    retalivity
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,034 ✭✭✭✭retalivity


    Ta neart daoine oga i gaoth dobhair a labharann gaeilge idir iad fhein (Dun na nGall)

    Its not dead yet!


  • #87
    deirdremf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    HugoBradyBrown wrote: »
    Well, no, not necessarily. One finds that, schoolteachers apart, the grammar and enunciation among the native speakers in the West often leaves a lot to be desired. The best Irish is in fact heard today in Glenageary, in Donnybrook and in Blackrock, counterintuitively.
    You are confusing "book Irish" and "school Irish" with good Irish.
    They might speak the caighdeán oifigiúil, but that's not really Irish, it's a sort of emasculated version of the language for writing official documents. Nobody in their right mind speaks like that.
    Then there is the question of pronunciation: most Dublin speakers cannot get their mouths around the phonetics of Irish. They say things like "taw mé", "cúig mé", "conaic mé", and so on.
    And then they do not have any of the proverbs, set phrases etc that a native speaker will have at the tip of his tongue at all times.


  • #88
    HugoBradyBrown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 547 ✭✭✭HugoBradyBrown


    deirdremf wrote: »
    You are confusing "book Irish" and "school Irish" with good Irish.
    They might speak the caighdeán oifigiúil, but that's not really Irish, it's a sort of emasculated version of the language for writing official documents. Nobody in their right mind speaks like that.
    Then there is the question of pronunciation: most Dublin speakers cannot get their mouths around the phonetics of Irish. They say things like "taw mé", "cúig mé", "conaic mé", and so on.
    And then they do not have any of the proverbs, set phrases etc that a native speaker will have at the tip of his tongue at all times.

    I appreciate the point that you make, but it does rather make Gaelic seem like a language of fixed collocations, an agglomeration of hackneyed phrases trotted out day and daily, a sequence of pastoral proverbs, with nothing like the spring, vim, vigour and limpidity of living English spoken by a man who has been to a public school and to one of the ancient universities.

    Perhaps the spoken language in Ireland is some form of remnant or fossil, inward-looking and lacking in linguistic energy. With such a tiny population of speakers with any measure of real competence, particularly in the depopulated Gaeltacht itself, it is not unlikely that it has become debased and degraded from some previous more authentically alive form. With such tiny language communities, it is inescapable that the richness of an active vocabulary that is sustained by a much larger community, with such resources as the huge OED, cannot be maintained. Perhaps in the past Gaelic had almost as large a corpus of lexical items as English; today, clearly, it is denuded, an eroded remnant, much as the hills of Connemara are the worn-down skeletons of once-great mountains.

    This is a matter of regret, but, like the African black rhinoceros, languages eventually go into reservations and then finally go extinct. Gaelic may, in fact, already be no more than a zoo and safari park specimen, ultimately only to be seen in virtual formaldehyde in glass jars.


  • #89
    Enkidu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    HugoBradyBrown wrote: »
    I appreciate the point that you make, but it does rather make Gaelic seem like a language of fixed collocations, an agglomeration of hackneyed phrases trotted out day and daily, a sequence of pastoral proverbs, with nothing like the spring, vim, vigour and limpidity of living English spoken by a man who has been to a public school and to one of the ancient universities.
    Isn't that a bit much to take from "Irish has set phrases that a lot of learners don't know". The same is true of most learners of most languages, even learners of English.


  • #90
    HugoBradyBrown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 547 ✭✭✭HugoBradyBrown


    Enkidu wrote: »
    Isn't that a bit much to take from "Irish has set phrases that a lot of learners don't know". The same is true of most learners of most languages, even learners of English.

    Yes, O Enkidu, but English is truly a living language, sprouting new variants worldwide, and unconfined to any linguistic straitjacket. Sadly, in coming off the worse in this comparison, Gaelic reveals the symptoms of a language in intensive care, with a notice on the bed reading 'do not resuscitate'.

    Sadly.


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  • #91
    Enkidu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    HugoBradyBrown wrote: »
    Yes, O Enkidu, but English is truly a living language, sprouting new variants worldwide, and unconfined to any linguistic straitjacket. Sadly, in coming off the worse in this comparison, Gaelic reveals the symptoms of a language in intensive care, with a notice on the bed reading 'do not resuscitate'.

    Sadly.
    English is a massive international language, Irish is a small one of one nation, you have to compare like with like. Irish has a few phrases, idioms and ways of phrasing things that don't roll of the tongue at first if you're learner. However this doesn't imply that Irish is moribund. Also none of this supports the original notion that the best Irish is in Foxrock.


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