I'm sorry, maybe too harsh but what the hell is going on in primary schools?

headmaster · 03-11-2011 10:34PM

The only people not being blamed at all, with regard to all of the problems, are, PARENTS. Then again, does that surprise anyone? Yeah, thought so.

golden virginia · 03-11-2011 10:57PM

There is one part here thats missing though... i find students can often not be communicative vebally. I get no communicative engagement from them beyond one or two words and gestures vocal expressive sounds. its like their capacity to form a sentence even verbally does not exist..... so its bigger problem than just literacy ... or have the irish just simply lost the gift of the gob?

happywithlife · 04-11-2011 01:28AM

haven't read all the replies but I was shocked last year when I substituted for a woman and part of her timetable was peer teaching with the english teacher - we had one class four days a week with a first year group and for the four weeks I was there all we did was basic sentence construction - put a capital letter at the beginning & places names etc also get capitals... the difference between their, they're and there. And so on.
I couldn't believe it !
I do know though from a primary school teacher neighbour, that one of her bug bears is the way their curriculum has broadened out so much in recent years and they are expected to cover so much, that no time is left for the basics.
Another secondary school I worked in last year, had a discussion within the English dept with regards to timetabling one class a week for all incoming first years that was to solely address literacy & spelling - not to cover curriculum content per say.
(please don't highlight how many mistakes I've probably made just typing this

)

khan86 · 04-11-2011 01:59AM

I'm a secondary school teacher of Religious Education and would agree with some of the posts on here about too much time being spent on Religion in primary schools. It is astonishing the amount of time spent on it, signing hymns and drawing doves. I know a couple of primary teachers who say a huge chunk of their term after Christmas is taken up with preparing for communion and confirmation in second and sixth class. The way it is taught is ridiculous for a start, it's indoctrination not education and should be left to the Church, Mosque, Synagogue or wherever you worship. At the very least it should be left for after school just like piano lessons or dance-classes. I would rather the time be spent on teaching kids how to read and spell properly as I'm sure many would agree

hudie mcmenamin · 05-11-2011 10:13AM

My kid has been in primary school for 3 years. They have only done numbers up to 10 ... Addition only. He seems to spend most of his maths 'homework' colouring in snakes. He hasn't done any subtraction or tables( the tables only go to 10x10 these days). Enough is enough. I'm just going to have to teach him myself. The NCCA has a LOT to answer for. By the way if anyone s interested, look up khan academy for tons of educational resources - everything from basic addition to credit derivatives in 10 minute videos!

Solair · 05-11-2011 10:39AM

They seem to have abandoned the mechanics of language teaching when it comes to English.

It's all very well to assume kids will pick things up, but as someone who has Cambridge English teaching qualifications for ESOL, I know these things have to be taught!

English orthography is not very phonetic and its highly irregular compared to many other languages. The grammar system is not always self explanatory either.

Blaming phones, texting or media consumption is a joke to be perfectly honest. Something is going wrong with the teaching.

Also, if kids aren't reading, did anyone ever consider a book club, doing book reports etc? Compare a book and a movie? Get your kids enthused about reading! As a teacher, that's your job!!

Clearly teachers are either incapable of teaching English or, do not understand what they're doing anymore.

This is a crisis situation and it need to be fixed fast! Failure to do so will have a very negative impact on hundreds of thousands of people's lives!

Incidentally, this was typed on a smart phone, proving that blaming texting is nonsense!

Also, I don't remember having any formal or even informal grammar classes in primary school either! I had to relearn the mechanics of writing in my teens and twenties. I learnt all of the finer points by teaching myself!

thewinner12345 · 05-11-2011 10:53AM

there are many problems in primary school, the biggest one in my opinion is that the curriculum is overloaded. Teachers in primary are expected to make room for more, more, more all the time. The basics of reading, writing and maths are simply not given enough time. There is not enough time to teach these subjects properly. While it may be wonderful to say swimming or French for example should be taught in school, each time something new is added the time is reduced for something else. The Minister has said he will increase the amount of time for these subjects and when I heard this first I thought, wonderful. I thought something else would be taken out to make room but this is not the case --- it seems it will have to be done through integration with other subjects which is a mistake and only paying lipservice to what he intended originally.
Of course there are other problems

disinterested parents and students, large class sizes, sen children who take up lots of teacher time as they have no SNA, disruptive students(the bane of every teacher) etc. etc. etc.
but I feel if more time had been allocated to the main subjects it would have been a huge step in the right direction. The perhaps spelling and all of the basics would improve.

rainbowtrout · 05-11-2011 11:23AM

Do children have these kind of books anymore? These were our bibles when I was in primary school in the late 80s. We learned all sorts of grammar, sentence structure etc from them. Plenty of exercises in them to teach and practice different elements of grammar. I have a feeling with the way things are going that if I ever have children I'll be investing in a copy of both so that they can write and speak English properly.

I'm amazed but not surprised to see they are still available

junior-english-revised-richards-w-haydn-paperback-cover-art.jpg

dring · 06-11-2011 12:52AM

Solair · 06-11-2011 05:15PM

The unfortunate result :

Brendan97 · 07-11-2011 07:09PM

When i was in primary school (not so long ago) we did irish every day, maths every day and english once a week

Shane L · 08-11-2011 06:07PM

Spelling improves with reading. I wouldn't be the best in the spelling department but thanks to all the reading I did when I was younger when something is misspelt it just looks "weird". Strangely enough I read much more when I was younger compared to now :pac: I'm in my second year of college and only last year I found about the i before e except after c rule!

whydoibother? · 08-11-2011 06:11PM

Shane L wrote: »

Spelling improves with reading. I wouldn't be the best in the spelling department but thanks to all the reading I did when I was younger when something is misspelt it just looks "weird". Strangely enough I read much more when I was younger compared to now :pac: I'm in my second year of college and only last year I found about the i before e except after c rule!

Don't worry about that one. According to QI, the rule fails more times than it's reliable.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 08-11-2011 07:42PM

khan86 wrote: »

I'm a secondary school teacher of Religious Education and would agree with some of the posts on here about too much time being spent on Religion in primary schools. It is astonishing the amount of time spent on it, signing hymns and drawing doves. I know a couple of primary teachers who say a huge chunk of their term after Christmas is taken up with preparing for communion and confirmation in second and sixth class. The way it is taught is ridiculous for a start, it's indoctrination not education and should be left to the Church, Mosque, Synagogue or wherever you worship. At the very least it should be left for after school just like piano lessons or dance-classes. I would rather the time be spent on teaching kids how to read and spell properly as I'm sure many would agree

I have to agree with you here. I'd say an entire year of primary school is spent focusing on Communion and Confirmation. I'm not a fan of this. Its not an anti religious thing since I'm religious my my self.

90% of kids see communion and confirmation as a way to get money rather than any relioug experience. It should be left for Religious parents and the Church to run outside school hours.

Fuinseog · 08-11-2011 08:43PM

Shane L wrote: »

Spelling improves with reading. I wouldn't be the best in the spelling department but thanks to all the reading I did when I was younger when something is misspelt it just looks "weird". Strangely enough I read much more when I was younger compared to now :pac: I'm in my second year of college and only last year I found about the i before e except after c rule!

even 16 year olds do not read newspapers or anything of substance. neither the department nor parents encourage reading of any kind. some kids come to secondary school and they can barely read or write which makes one wonder how they spent primary school.

RealJohn · 09-11-2011 01:04AM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I have to agree with you here. I'd say an entire year of primary school is spent focusing on Communion and Confirmation. I'm not a fan of this. Its not an anti religious thing since I'm religious my my self.

90% of kids see communion and confirmation as a way to get money rather than any relioug experience. It should be left for Religious parents and the Church to run outside school hours.

In fairness, it's not as though there used to be less time spent on religion. Spending time on religion isn't the reason the primary schools are doing a bad job, it's that they're not spending as much time as they used to on the "three Rs".

shayno90 · 09-11-2011 11:41AM

I had a principal in national school from the mid to late nineties who was incapable of teaching and spent most of her time speaking about her son who was abroad. Meanwhile, most of the basics we had learned in the main subjects in previous years had diminished due to her incompetence plus the inability by the board to remove to her from her post until she reached retirement age.

Some comments on the main subjects are:

Most students had to learn for themselves at home by attempting the work that was barely taught during the day. There was an answer book accompanying the maths text book which was used by her to give us the answers to all the math problems but not once were we shown how to solve any of the problems. Maths really was an issue for many maths teachers that we had regarding issues with an inability to teach it and not understanding the material either.

As for English, we mostly read at home as there was a mobile library to came every 1/2 weeks and we almost always brought a book home to read. There was no such thing as abbreviating most words to save time when writing so this was not an issue nor was the pronunciation or. We relearned most of the English grammar in secondary school again.

Then, a few days before the arrival of 'an cigire', she would attempt to teach us to say a few basic Irish sentences to respond to any of the inspectors questions in order to cover her own incompetence. Irish was not taught by her, you just attempted to do some of the exercises in the textbook at home. After learning other foreign languages, I realized how little was taught about verbs, grammar, vocabulary, tenses etc., and that an emphasis on oral speaking was non existent.

By the time secondary school arrived, most students who had remained and not gone to nearby schools had to catch up with other better taught students. There was a big jump from primary school to secondary which should not have been the case if there was a consistent learning pattern throughout primary school. For me, it was like a 'DIY' primary school!

RonMexico · 10-11-2011 04:27PM

It is not just a problem at primary or secondary level. It is a HUGE problem at third level, particularly with teacher training courses. Imagine 1st year college students who want to teach admitting that they "never read". Yeah, I am serious.

TonyStark · 10-11-2011 04:31PM

peanuthead wrote: »

I'm a secondary school teacher of English and languages.

Sorry, I don't mean to come across as overly harsh here, but what the hell is going on in primary schools today that means students can't spell??

I have bitten my tongue on this one for a long, long time because I wasn't sure who was at fault exactly. Having students come in to me not able to spell the most basic of words, even the ones who would be considered the more intelligent students, has both annoyed and frustrated me for a long time.

I often thought to myself, maybe it's harder than just repetition, spellings tests, games etc and that if the majority of students are having problems with it, it's not that primary schools are not approaching it, just maybe doing so in the wrong way.

But this year has been my first year to teach my language subject to first years and I am utterly appalled at my findings. After two months of doing this language, my students can spell better in a foreign language than they can in English!!

Can any primary school teacher (or anyone with a bit of insight into this) please explain to me what the hell is going on in primary schools that students don't know how to write things like "should of" and "we carrie are books in a schoolbag" correctly?

We are being asked to jump through hoops in secondary with relation to literacy and numeracy, but to be honest, after 6 years of doing it wrong, although I would never say it is too late to learn how to spell, it's a lot harder than if they had learned the right way in the first place.

As a secondary school English teacher I am losing my patience with students arriving into first year, having studied Junior certificate poetry, read junior cycle novels and completed huge chunks of junior cycle textbooks.

I also know from interviewing a 6th class teacher for a Curriculum research paper I wrote 2 years ago, that there is a heavy emphasis in 6th class on 1st year of secondary school, giving students extra homework, getting them to read more books.

With the greatest respect (and directed more at the system/powers that be/syllabus authors rather than the individual teachers) - can you not just stick to your own syllabus, focus on the basics/literacy and leave the secondary syllabus for the secondary teachers???

A big rant I know and hopefully not too OTT

I like your one sentence paragraphs and the usage of the comma in each sentence.

highly1111 · 10-11-2011 05:54PM

TonyStark wrote: »

I like your one sentence paragraphs and the usage of the comma in each sentence.

I seriously wonder what buzz you get out of posting useless comments such as the one above. Someone has a serious superiority complex .

Stick to the topic and if you've nothing to contribute, that's fair enough. Enough of the petty swiping on this site.

Toto Wolfcastle · 10-11-2011 05:56PM

TonyStark wrote: »

I like your one sentence paragraphs and the usage of the comma in each sentence.

Please do not comment on the grammar of other posters. It is against the charter. If you have nothing helpful to add, please don't post.

highly1111 wrote: »

I seriously wonder what buzz you get out of posting useless comments such as the one above. Someone has a serious superiority complex .

Stick to the topic and if you've nothing to contribute, that's fair enough. Enough of the petty swiping on this site.

If you have a problem with a post please report it. Backseat modding is against the charter.

Back on topic please.

Fuinseog · 10-11-2011 08:28PM

RonMexico wrote: »

It is not just a problem at primary or secondary level. It is a HUGE problem at third level, particularly with teacher training courses. Imagine 1st year college students who want to teach admitting that they "never read". Yeah, I am serious.

I can think of plenty of final college year students who never read a book or language teachers who could barely speak the language they were supposed to be teaching.
A lot of schools place a greater emphasis on extra curricular activities than on academic. Someone who can coach rugby or GAA gets the job, so long as they can read and write.

golden virginia · 10-11-2011 09:21PM

Fuinseog wrote: »

I can think of plenty of final college year students who never read a book or language teachers who could barely speak the language they were supposed to be teaching.
A lot of schools place a greater emphasis on extra curricular activities than on academic. Someone who can coach rugby or GAA gets the job, so long as they can read and write.

I agree, and I wish to add that there has not until recent years been a requriement, that teachers can even read and write. i have taught alongside an awful lot of unqualified teachers and under unqualified principals.

If youre in - you in, and if your out your out. We need a government that bothers to value qualification in the profession, as a way of real improvement.

rainbowtrout · 10-11-2011 10:12PM

Fuinseog wrote: »

I can think of plenty of final college year students who never read a book or language teachers who could barely speak the language they were supposed to be teaching.
A lot of schools place a greater emphasis on extra curricular activities than on academic. Someone who can coach rugby or GAA gets the job, so long as they can read and write.

I've seen this too and I can't understand the mentality. I remember a conversation with an English teacher where I work from a couple of years back; she said that there were a number of students in her Higher Level English class who wanted to do English in college, and one or two of them had suggested that they would go on to become English teachers. Instead of being delighted, she was horrified. These students seemed to have no interest in the subject, disliked reading and didn't read the novel that was on the course. They had no interest in reading in general. She couldn't work out what would possess them to want to study English at degree level, and then to teach it when they had no interest in the subject.

evolving_doors · 11-11-2011 12:08AM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I've seen this too and I can't understand the mentality. I remember a conversation with an English teacher where I work from a couple of years back; she said that there were a number of students in her Higher Level English class who wanted to do English in college, and one or two of them had suggested that they would go on to become English teachers. Instead of being delighted, she was horrified. These students seemed to have no interest in the subject, disliked reading and didn't read the novel that was on the course. They had no interest in reading in general. She couldn't work out what would possess them to want to study English at degree level, and then to teach it when they had no interest in the subject.

Probably when Dead Poets Society was out...

rainbowtrout · 11-11-2011 12:26AM

Armelodie wrote: »

Probably when Dead Poets Society was out...

No it's a bit more recent than that. Most of them weren't born when Dead Poets Society was out. I doubt most of them have ever seen it.

spurious · 11-11-2011 08:02AM

When you have a system that has allowed a culture of teaching to the exam to spread and infect schools, why would you need to read the book? Just read the notes, or better still, watch the film.

Tigerandahalf · 15-11-2011 02:29AM

Txtspeak is a big problem...
u c wen u reed n rite lik dis most of da time, da spelins dont stay in ur head!!

Lord TSC · 15-11-2011 11:15AM

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Txtspeak is a big problem...
u c wen u reed n rite lik dis most of da time, da spelins dont stay in ur head!!

Personally, I've never bought into that. I used text talk all the time growing up but it still didn't stop me from learning to spell. I know I can't use myself as the example, but there's too much blame placed on "those kids and their fancy text talking."

My primary school was great though; every Friday, from junior infants up to sixth class, we had a ten minute spelling test, going back over new words we learned that week. It never took much time, but it drove the proper spellings into our heads.

Tigerandahalf · 15-11-2011 05:01PM

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Txtspeak is a big problem...
u c wen u reed n rite lik dis most of da time, da spelins dont stay in ur head!!

Couple of other factors that have an effect:
Mothers no longer in the home. Parents now too knackered coming home from hr commute. No time for a proper family dinner and chat around the table.
Having the time to read and check children's homework.
Poor discipline, we've gone from too strict to too lenient.
Too much money. Poorer countries and families within them place a greater emphasis on education.
A lot could be done but the recession could be one of the better remedies.

I'm sorry, maybe too harsh but what the hell is going on in primary schools?

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