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NBA Lockout

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭padraig_f


    At this stage does it look like the NBA will be able to start on schedule this year?

    Looks very unlikely, the sides seem so far apart. My understanding is the owners have made an terrible offer (that salaries wouldn remain flat over the next 10 years, even as league revenue grew) but they have the players over a barrel because the league is losing money on average, so missed games isn't that big a deal to them.

    Missed games are a big deal to players though, because it means missed pay-cheques, so that will be a negotiating lever for the owners. This is different from the NFL lockout because the NFL was highly profitable, and both sides figured to lose out if games were missed (also a fixed salary amount wasn't on the table, it was just a question of what percentage-of-revenue salaries would be).

    My guess is there'll be a shortened season starting in january/february because the players have too much to lose by missing a whole season, more than they could gain back in future negotiations.

    Ric Bucher was talking about it yesterday and makes some interesting points:
    http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=6908831&s=espn


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭padraig_f


    I'd recommend following Tom Ziller for lockout news. He has a nice graphic in his latest article:

    Lockout-Negotiations-tz.jpg

    The red line is the existing deal, the green line is what the players have offered. The purple line is what the owners want. So you can see how far apart they are.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭padraig_f




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭Sea Devils


    padraig_f wrote: »

    He then went on to claim that his account was hacked with many people suspecting he intended to send a direct message rather then a status update instead.

    Still there are positive vibes coming out. The main principles have been negotiating over the course of this week, and they have asked larger groups of players & owners to join the next round of talks. Both sides have agreed to not speak to the media other than in very general terms, which I like.


  • Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭Jordans n Timbs


    i remember the last lockout in like 99.......torture everyday coming home from school checking aertel (lol) to see if any progress was made.....


    stern is such a wanker


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭Sea Devils


    Interesting quote from Simmons.
    There's a feeling within the NBA's labor negotiations — and not just from David Stern's side — that Billy Hunter has been dragging things along from his end because he's afraid of getting beaten like DeMaurice Smith just did.- Bill Simmons


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭Sea Devils


    It looks like the new CBA is going to include 1 or 2 amnesty clauses that teams can use on overpaid players. I'm sure they'd still have to pay them, but it wouldn't count against the cap.

    Also Training Camps and exhibition games were officially cancelled/postponed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,881 ✭✭✭WHIP IT!


    Lads, I purposely haven't read this thread or anything else really about the Lockout, preferring instead to adopt the tried and trusted 'Head in the Sand' technique of just hoping it works out... but I'm getting worried now - what're the chances we're going to have a season, any kind of a season?? :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,806 ✭✭✭Lafortezza


    Optimists would say half a season starting in January would be a good result looking at the way the talks are going right now. Most commmentators I've read would not be surprised if the whole season is a gonner.
    I think people underestimate how bad NBA players are with their finances. They might be millionaires but some of them aren't too careful how they spend their cash and I think some of the brokest players will eventually put pressure on the Players Association to cave on the demands/negotiate to let them get back to playing and making money.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭padraig_f


    The status is that games will almost certainly be missed. The season was due to start on Nov 1st, and it's expected to take about a month between agreeing to a deal & the start of the season (for concluding the deal, free-agency, shortened training camp). So unless a deal gets done in the next week (not gonna happen), regular-season games will be missed.

    The next stage is if the owners use missed games for leverage, which I think is likely, i.e. they don't agree to a deal until after Nov 1st. So then you're looking at more than a month of missed games.

    How much more? Depends on how much of a hard-line stance the owners take. I'm sure there will be some kind of season (because I'm in denial about the alternative). Bill Simmons puts the over/under for the season opener at Jan 15:
    We'll make this week's update quick: I was told by Someone Who Knows that we need one month from "finished deal" to "signings/trades/training camp" to "we're ready to start!" That means we're missing games. If you gave me an over/under of January 15, I'm taking the over. Expect words like "contraction" and "merger" to start getting thrown around. The owners aren't messing around. As Deep Throat once said, "Follow the money." The owners paid $2.1 billion in salaries last year. They want to knock that number down by $500 million to $600 million annually while creating a harder cap … and really, they don't care how they get there. If the players want a bigger share of revenue, fine — the league will dip from 30 to 27 teams, and with 45 fewer players getting paid, the players can have a bigger share of the revenue. The owners are chopping that $2.1 billion figure down one way or the other. Even if it means canceling the 2011-12 season.

    I initially wasn't too bothered about missing some regular season games, because I think the 82-game regular season is a bit on the long side, but Zach Lowe of SI had a good article the other day on why a shortened season is a bad thing.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭padraig_f


    A lot more optimism after yesterday's meetings. Sides are unofficially 2 percentage points apart in revenue share, which represents $80 million in the first year of the deal. If games were missed until December, players would lose $500 million. Stern has set a deadline of Monday before regular season games are missed, so looks like there will be a push to get something done by this weekend.

    Players, owners leave angry, but also leave close to a deal

    With nearly all of $8 billion gap closed, season can be saved


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭Sea Devils


    Larry Coon with some awesome quantitive analysis

    This same phenomenon is true on the owner's side too. After X amount of games lost, it doesn't make sense to continue with the lockout. Get it done, dammit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,504 ✭✭✭✭For Forks Sake




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,335 ✭✭✭conno16


    has kobe moved to italy yet?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭Sea Devils


    First two weeks of the season already cancelled. :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 534 ✭✭✭jimmay


    http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2011/10/11/20111011_chuck_reg_pt1.nba/?ls=iref:nbahpt1

    The main thing according to Charles Barkley in this interview appears to be the issue of megastars wanting to go to bigger markets...i.e. seems to me this whole thing is Lebron's fault for going to Miamai! :p


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭Sea Devils


    Both owners and players just finished 16 hours of negotiations with the mediator. I'm hoping that's good news.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,881 ✭✭✭WHIP IT!


    Sea Devils wrote: »
    Both owners and players just finished 16 hours of negotiations with the mediator. I'm hoping that's good news.

    I saw a headline on ESPN last night that suggested the season could get going within 30 days??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭Sea Devils


    WHIP IT! wrote: »
    I saw a headline on ESPN last night that suggested the season could get going within 30 days??

    Hmm I don't know tbh. Both sides are claiming there was very little progress in the timespan that they met but I don't know about that. . You don't sit through a 16 hour negotiation session and not get anything done. It becomes pretty apparent a couple of hours into the session if neither side is moving on anything. Maybe I'm just overly optimistic, but 16 hours and no progress seems illogical to me.

    -If nothing else, this shows me that the owners are serious about getting a deal done. Basic human nature suggests that if your goal is to break the union, you're not going to spend 16 hours in a negotiating session with a mediator before calling it a day.

    - On a lighter note, The owners sent a bunch of Cookies over to the players side, and a couple of hours later the players sent ice cream bars over to the owners. Both sides took turns buying meals for the media who was waiting outside :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,881 ✭✭✭WHIP IT!


    Sea Devils wrote: »
    Hmm I don't know tbh. Both sides are claiming there was very little progress in the timespan that they met but I don't know about that. . You don't sit through a 16 hour negotiation session and not get anything done. It becomes pretty apparent a couple of hours into the session if neither side is moving on anything. Maybe I'm just overly optimistic, but 16 hours and no progress seems illogical to me.

    -If nothing else, this shows me that the owners are serious about getting a deal done. Basic human nature suggests that if your goal is to break the union, you're not going to spend 16 hours in a negotiating session with a mediator before calling it a day.

    - On a lighter note, The owners sent a bunch of Cookies over to the players side, and a couple of hours later the players sent ice cream bars over to the owners. Both sides took turns buying meals for the media who was waiting outside :pac:

    I just saw it as I was passing a TV - but I'm sure it said something to the effect of "Stern eyes start to season in 30 days after talks breakthrough" or something??

    Jesus, it's quite possible I actually dreamt this though! :o


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭padraig_f


    **** hit the fan tonight, the mediator quit and Derek Fisher came out and called the other side liars. I thought there was a short window to get something done now, because the players had an incentive not to miss pay-cheques. The owners never cared about missing November/December, I think it only starts hurting them when a season is lost. So once the players miss some cheques, they might as well use whatever leverage they have, which is the threat of losing the season.

    With this window apparently gone now, I think it goes to the brink of a missed season and possibly beyond. It's all incredibly dumb. The owners seem to be using a scorched earth policy, I thought the players would be pragmatic enough to see that only they get hurt by missing these games. So they might as well accept the crappy deal now instead of the crappy deal they get later on.

    Where I see it going now: to the brink of losing a season in Jan/Feb. The owners stance is pretty much the same, and the players either realise how stupid they were, climb down and accept virtually the same deal, or they decide to stick it to the owners as well and the season is lost.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭padraig_f


    The frustrating thing about this is, the players want a deal, the fans want a deal, the big-market owners want a deal, the associated workers (stadium employees, journalists etc.) all want a deal. And it's guys like Dan Gilbert who manage their franchises terribly, and want someone else to pay for their mistakes, who are blocking things.

    Couple of good articles on last night's events and the fallout:

    War of Attrition - Doug Thonus
    NBA Lockout: The 50/50 Fallacy, And 10 Myths Driving The NBA To Armageddon - Andrew Sharp

    Andrew Sharp is on the side of the players and so am I morally, but think Thonus nails it when he says (and what the players seem to miss):

    "There is no right and wrong. There's only what can be negotiated."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭Sea Devils


    Looks like both sides have (very unexpectedly) agreed to meet today for a bargaining session, putting the announcement that two more weeks of the season were going to be cancelled on hold.

    Maybe these morons have decided to stop shrinking the pie for everyone and to get a deal done.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭Sea Devils


    Looks like it's all finally going to end soon. Teams started hiring video coordinators and scouts , and agents started calling teams regarding free agents yesterday. Both great signs. :D

    It could either be done tomorrow or Sunday/Monday depending on when the next bargaining session occurs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,881 ✭✭✭WHIP IT!


    Sea Devils wrote: »
    Looks like it's all finally going to end soon. Teams started hiring video coordinators and scouts , and agents started calling teams regarding free agents yesterday. Both great signs. :D

    It could either be done tomorrow or Sunday/Monday depending on when the next bargaining session occurs.

    Hallelujah!!

    The NBA really can't afford this to go on much longer. You have to wonder what kind of effect this has on fanbase. The Baseball World Series has just ended and it was a seven-game thriller for the ages... it's the height of football season - right now, the NBA must be losing fans hand over fist... nothing turns people off more than multi-millionaires squabbling over more millions of dollars.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Just when it looked like a deal was going to be done it looks like they're back to square one. The rest of Novembers games cancelled :(

    http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/28/friday-labor/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭Sea Devils


    It looks like the BRI is still the main stumbling block for both sides. Having said that I'd still be very surprised if this doesn't get done some time next week at the very latest.

    One month of the season = $400M in lost revenue
    Difference between 52% & 50% of BRI = $480M in lost revenue


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,881 ✭✭✭WHIP IT!


    Sea Devils wrote: »
    It looks like the BRI is still the main stumbling block for both sides. Having said that I'd still be very surprised if this doesn't get done some time next week at the very latest.

    One month of the season = $400M in lost revenue
    Difference between 52% & 50% of BRI = $480M in lost revenue

    You're completely right.... but never underestimate the power of stupidity...


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭#15


    I posted about this on the first page of the thread. Here is Larry Coon's latest article on the decertification threat.
    I find it really fascinating. The owners could take a huge hit but it could destroy the league for the forseeable future.
    As detailed by ESPN's Marc Stein and Chris Broussard, at least 50 dissatisfied NBA players had a conference call Thursday to lay the groundwork for potentially decertifying the players union. According to the New York Times, this group of players intends to push for the dissolution of their union if this weekend's talks fail to make satisfactory progress or result in an unacceptable deal.

    By decertifying, the players would be throwing a counterpunch after being on the ropes for many months. They already have conceded 4.5 percent of league revenues -- moving from 57 percent in the last agreement to a proposed 52.5 percent -- along with accepting many system changes that favor the owners. Meanwhile, the owners' hard-line stance has hardly swayed in the two-plus years the sides have negotiated.

    The mere threat of decertification would provide the players with much-needed leverage in the labor dispute. Anticipating such a move, the league filed a federal lawsuit, calling it an "impermissible pressure tactic," and saying it has had a "direct, immediate and harmful" effect on the negotiations. The suit seeks a declaration from the court that the lockout does not violate antitrust laws in the event the union decertifies.

    A hearing took place this week in Manhattan, N.Y., in which the union asked the judge to dismiss the suit. The judge has asked for additional briefs from both parties before rendering a decision.

    Decertification owes its power to the uneasy truce between labor laws and antitrust laws. The antitrust laws prevent employers from banding together to restrain competition. For example, if all the banks in a city agreed that they would not pay their tellers more than $30,000 per year, it would almost certainly be an illegal case of "price fixing." Likewise, if the banks laid off all their tellers and refused to rehire them unless they agreed to take a pay cut to $30,000, it would almost certainly be an illegal "group boycott." These types of agreements -- which restrain competition -- are addressed by the antitrust laws.

    However, collective bargaining encourages the very type of behavior that the antitrust laws make illegal. To resolve this inherent conflict, there is something called the "non-statutory labor exemption," which shields collective bargaining agreements from attack under antitrust law. This protection extends even after the agreement expires -- so long as a bargaining relationship continues to exist.

    Here's the key to the whole process: This bargaining relationship continues to exist as long as the union is in place. If the players dissolve the union, the bargaining relationship dissolves with it. Without the bargaining relationship, the league is no longer shielded from antitrust laws.

    Much of the economic structure of the NBA -- such as the salary cap, maximum salaries, rookie-scale salaries and the luxury tax -- could be challenged under the antitrust laws as a form of price fixing if there was no union. The lockout itself could be challenged as a group boycott.


    In many normal businesses, employers fight unionization and would be thrilled if the employees decided to get rid of their union. But in the sports world, employers benefit from the existence of the union -- so the employees can use the dissolution of the union as a threat.

    So far the NBA players have kept the dispute within the realm of labor law by continuing to negotiate as a union. If the players dissolve the union -- either by decertifying or through a related process called a disclaimer of interest -- they surrender their collective bargaining rights, lift the shield of protection provided by the non-statutory labor exemption, and shift the venue from labor law to antitrust law.

    After decertifying, the players could then bring an antitrust suit against the league, challenge any rules that constitute a restraint of trade, and ask the court to end the lockout. They could also seek treble (triple the amount) damages -- up to $6 billion per year. The odds of winning are not 100 percent certain (they never are), but the risk to the owners would be enormous. Such a case could take years to resolve.


    Once the union decertifies, the collective bargaining process would be over -- there literally would be no union with which the owners could negotiate. Billy Hunter, Derek Fisher and the other players on the executive committee would no longer be in charge -- as a practical matter, control would pass to attorneys. The players also could not reassemble the union for one year without the league's consent. However, such consent obviously would be granted if the two sides eventually cut a deal.

    Once the union decertifies, the owners could pursue one of three strategies:

    • They can end the lockout, open the doors to the players and start doing business without a salary cap or any of the other mechanisms that existed in the CBA. They would be abandoning the very protections for which they are locking out the players, and which they have enjoyed for decades.

    • They can end the lockout, open the doors to the players and unilaterally impose a new set of work rules without collective bargaining. This strategy would surely result in an antitrust challenge by the players. It would also implement an economic system the owners don't want, as the new rules would be designed to withstand such a challenge.

    • They can continue the lockout, hoping to wear down the players. This strategy would also be met with an antitrust suit, and the owners would be hoping that the players wear down before the hammer falls. This is the most likely of the three scenarios.

    The league's federal lawsuit would also become irrelevant if the union decertifies, because the league sued the union and its executive committee. Those bodies would no longer exist.

    In order to decertify the union, at last 30 percent of the players must sign a petition stating that they no longer wish to be represented by the players' association. This petition is filed with the National Labor Relations Board, the same organization that is overseeing both sides' unfair labor practice charges. The NLRB then verifies the petition and schedules an election. If a majority of players then vote for decertification, the union is dissolved.

    This process would take until at least after the new year before an election is scheduled. Union attorney Lawrence Katz also believes the NLRB would block any decertification petition until it rules on the earlier charges, which would cause further delays. "In my opinion, they could not process the petition for a vote because of the pending petition," he said.

    So why would the players explore decertification now? Such a move would be like throwing a grenade into the negotiating room. "We aren't talking about decertification as a negotiating tactic," said David Holmes, a corporate attorney based in Houston. "We're talking about war."

    If 50 players are involved, then this is clearly more than just hot air from a few hard-line players. It puts pressure on both sides. Faced with an increasing likelihood of a player revolt, the league may be more inclined to compromise in this weekend's scheduled negotiating sessions. Even if this is all just posturing from a group of dissatisfied players, it is not a development NBA commissioner David Stern and the owners want to see.

    It also puts pressure on Hunter, Fisher and the rest of the union negotiating committee. Amid rumors that Fisher was trying to find a way to sell the players on a 50-50 split of revenues, this threat sends a strong message: You need to hold the line, because we have other options.

    While this move is surprising, it is not an unprecedented step for NBA players, who filed antitrust lawsuits in 1970 and 1987, and nearly decertified in 1995. For better or worse, decertification would be a game-changer.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/decertification-111104/nba-decertification-threat-strong-message


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,337 ✭✭✭moneyman


    If decertification actually happened, the owners are in a much stronger position, not the players. I hope it doesn't come to that though.


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