Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

Chucky the tree · 07-11-2011 02:21PM

I think there is zero chance we sell Carroll back to Newcastle for anything less then £25m. If we did then Kenny jobs would be under serious pressure and I'd be surprised if FSG wanted to keep him on after such a huge mistake.

mike65 · 07-11-2011 02:23PM

Indeed, thats why it won't happen, not sure if Newcastle would want him back anyway.

Crazy Horse 6 · 07-11-2011 02:27PM

Either way something needs to done about Carrols form if it's at all possible. He is capable of so much better as witnessed last season at Newcastle but for whatever reason is'nt being shown at Liverpool.

07-11-2011 02:31PM

Hold on a sec, we'd be happy to take a 50% loss on a player after 9/10 months ?

No successful businessmen in here I presume

Give the lad a chance, jaysus. He's only young. I feel sorry for the lad tbh. He didn't set the fee. I'd say he hates the attention around it.

Liverpool don't win - Carroll gets the blame.(This is despite a handful of players having poorer games)

Kinda like Lucas's first year(or two for the real "fans"), when he was blamed for draws/defeats, and even booed by some knuckle draggers.

He was bought to score goals of course and will be ultimately judged on that, but writing him off so early in his career is silly. Same goes for Henderson btw.

Kess73 · 07-11-2011 02:31PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I think there is zero chance we sell Carroll back to Newcastle for anything less then £25m. If we did then Kenny jobs would be under serious pressure and I'd be surprised if FSG wanted to keep him on after such a huge mistake.

Funny that you mention that figure as £20m -£25m is the rumoured figure that is doing the rounds. The gossip is that Newcastle would get him back, and the remainder of what we would owed for him at that point would not have to be paid, which is meant to be in the £20m to £25m mark next year.

The other part of the rumour is that the player would go back to Newcastle for less money that what he is currently on in Liverpool, the same way the player offered to stay at Newcastle last January for less money per week than what Liverpool ended up paying for him.

Quite a few folk seem to think that he will be back at Newcastle within 18 months of when he signed for Liverpool.

tok9 · 07-11-2011 02:31PM

I think there is being a lot asked of Carroll. Fair enough he should have scored but other than that he didn't do much wrong. It's not his fault the other players aren't supporting him.

Kess73 · 07-11-2011 02:35PM

rarnes1 wrote: »

Hold on a sec, we'd be happy to take a 50% loss on a player after 9/10 months ?

No successful businessmen in here I presume

Give the lad a chance, jaysus. He's only young. I feel sorry for the lad tbh. He didn't set the fee. I'd say he hates the attention around it.

Liverpool don't win - Carroll gets the blame.(This is despite a handful of players having poorer games)

Kinda like Lucas's first year(or two for the real "fans"), when he was blamed for draws/defeats, and even booed by some knuckle draggers.

He was bought to score goals of course and will be ultimately judged on that, but writing him off so early in his career is silly. Same goes for Henderson btw.

The thing with Carroll is that it is meant to be the player himself that is unhappy with the move, and he has not settled at all in Liverpool and is still practically living and socialising in Newcastle.

Would like to see they guy get into a run of good form, but if there is truth in him being that homesick and that unable to settle, then things may not improve for the guy.

D'Agger · 07-11-2011 02:40PM

Kess73 wrote: »

if there is truth in him being that homesick and that unable to settle, then things may not improve for the guy.

I understand what you're saying here but at the same time it's not Australia he's moved to, Liverpool isn't that far away from Newcastle in the greater scheme of things.

If he was having trouble settling into the clubs ways, training, other team members then fine but I don't buy into the homesickness point.

07-11-2011 02:44PM

Kess73 wrote: »

The thing with Carroll is that it is meant to be the player himself that is unhappy with the move, and he has not settled at all in Liverpool and is still practically living and socialising in Newcastle.

Would like to see they guy get into a run of good form, but if there is truth in him being that homesick and that unable to settle, then things may not improve for the guy.

Homesick? At his age?

I could understand moving abroad and missing your family etc etc but Newcastle to Liverpool is hardly a world away.

Cartman78 · 07-11-2011 02:49PM

The main thing that struck me on Saturday watching the game was our complete lack of leadership on the pitch.

Agger hit the nail on the head with his headless chicken comment today - despite playing crap, a small bit of direction and composure against Swansea would have seen us over the line.

We have a decent enough squad, talented players on the pitch and potential match winners to spring from the bench but if there's mass panic every time we're not 2 up after 30 mins then that's gonna be a huge problem.

It's sickening watching ManYoo, consistently play absolute sh1t and still beating teams without breaking too much of a sweat. Sunderland and Norwich at Old Trafford are classic examples of this.

Maybe Gerrard will fill this void when he returns, but it's time for the likes of Lucas and Agger to man up and start leading this team

Boom_Bap · 07-11-2011 03:03PM

I think one of the main differences between the Carroll at Newcastle and at Liverpool is style of play.

At Newcastle, Carroll was the highest man up the pitch and dropped back to the halfway line rarely.
At liverpool, he his getting involved in the build up, laying off, out on the flanks, digging out the midfield etc.

I think that Newcastle used him to his strenghts whereas we are trying to use him as an all round forward player. If he improves in these areas, he will be a better all round player for us in the next few years.
We all said that when he was bought that we hoped it wasnt for him to be the big target man, which I believe he was at Newcastle. So far, he has been used by us as a target man rarely. It's a matter of Kenny to utilise him as a target man based on the opponents that we face and to continue to develop his all round game.

Kess73 · 07-11-2011 03:14PM

rarnes1 wrote: »

Homesick? At his age?

I could understand moving abroad and missing your family etc etc but Newcastle to Liverpool is hardly a world away.

Hey you are preaching to the converted when you talk to me about not being homesick. I have worked and lived in eight different countries, and lived in many different cities in each of them. Hell I have lived in the four main cities in Ireland (five if one wants to incluse N. Ireland and Belfast, and six if one wants to include spending months in Waterford when I had to come over to Ireland in relation to what I was doing back home in College) So for me travelling, learning new languages etc is the norm.

But a hell of a lot of people are not like that and struggle badly outside of the city they are from. Some people just cannot operate away from their comfort zone, and plenty of folk like that simply will not try to adapt to living somewhere new.

I find that Ireland and England seem to have a lot more of this attitude than some of the countries on mainland Europe. For some folk moving from Limerick to Cork or Galway is a huge burden, and they treat it like moving to another country, whereas on the mainland people seem to take to switching countries/language far more easily.

For me, being stuck in the one place my whole life would drive me nuts, but I accept that there will be others who have the opposite view to that.

Kess73 · 07-11-2011 03:17PM

Cartman78 wrote: »

The main thing that struck me on Saturday watching the game was our complete lack of leadership on the pitch.

Agger hit the nail on the head with his headless chicken comment today - despite playing crap, a small bit of direction and composure against Swansea would have seen us over the line.

We have a decent enough squad, talented players on the pitch and potential match winners to spring from the bench but if there's mass panic every time we're not 2 up after 30 mins then that's gonna be a huge problem.

It's sickening watching ManYoo, consistently play absolute sh1t and still beating teams without breaking too much of a sweat. Sunderland and Norwich at Old Trafford are classic examples of this.

Maybe Gerrard will fill this void when he returns, but it's time for the likes of Lucas and Agger to man up and start leading this team

The last two players that we had who I would have regarded as excellent leaders and/or organisers on the pitch both left in 2009. Since then I don't think we have had any consistent leaders or organisers on the pitch.

J. Marston · 07-11-2011 03:24PM

Cartman78 wrote: »

The main thing that struck me on Saturday watching the game was our complete lack of leadership on the pitch.

Agger hit the nail on the head with his headless chicken comment today - despite playing crap, a small bit of direction and composure against Swansea would have seen us over the line.

We have a decent enough squad, talented players on the pitch and potential match winners to spring from the bench but if there's mass panic every time we're not 2 up after 30 mins then that's gonna be a huge problem.

It's sickening watching ManYoo, consistently play absolute sh1t and still beating teams without breaking too much of a sweat. Sunderland and Norwich at Old Trafford are classic examples of this.

Maybe Gerrard will fill this void when he returns, but it's time for the likes of Lucas and Agger to man up and start leading this team

That's wrong though, isn't it? There's a difference between playing absolutely shít (United 1-6 City) and playing below par but winning (Everton 0-1 United, United 2-0 Norwich, United 1-0 Sunderland) and I doubt United didn't break a sweat. We were made work hard for those wins.

Cartman78 · 07-11-2011 03:29PM

Kess73 wrote: »

The last two players that we had who I would have regarded as excellent leaders and/or organisers on the pitch both left in 2009. Since then I don't think we have had any consistent leaders or organisers on the pitch.

2009? mmnnn....I'm guessing you're referring to Pennant and Dossena, or maybe Vornonin and Leto?

The loss of Alonso has been well mourned on here, but the loss of Hyypia and Hamann have also had huge impacts on the team.

When Andy Carroll cracked the crossbar on Saturday it would have been nice to see someone come up to him and put their arm around him/pat on the arse/peck on the cheek etc. and say 'Forget about it...get the next one'. Instead he was left wandering about waiting for a hole in the ground to open up

Cartman78 · 07-11-2011 03:33PM

J. Marston wrote: »

That's wrong though, isn't it? There's a difference between playing absolutely shít (United 1-6 City) and playing below par but winning (Everton 0-1 United, United 2-0 Norwich, United 1-0 Sunderland) and I doubt United didn't break a sweat. We were made work hard for those wins.

Maybe, but I was actually paying ManYoo a compliment, albeit a backhanded one.

Championship winning teams like ManYoo today and Liverpool in the 80's win those types of games almost from muscle memory

07-11-2011 03:34PM

Kess73 wrote: »

For some folk moving from Limerick to Cork or Galway is a huge burden, and they treat it like moving to another country, whereas on the mainland people seem to take to switching countries/language far more easily.

.

I'd have thought it would be a big relief

Chucky the tree · 07-11-2011 03:39PM

rarnes1 wrote: »

Hold on a sec, we'd be happy to take a 50% loss on a player after 9/10 months ?

No successful businessmen in here I presume

Give the lad a chance, jaysus. He's only young. I feel sorry for the lad tbh. He didn't set the fee. I'd say he hates the attention around it.

Liverpool don't win - Carroll gets the blame.(This is despite a handful of players having poorer games)

Kinda like Lucas's first year(or two for the real "fans"), when he was blamed for draws/defeats, and even booed by some knuckle draggers.

He was bought to score goals of course and will be ultimately judged on that, but writing him off so early in his career is silly. Same goes for Henderson btw.

I can't remember many players who were homesick who simply got used to it. I know of players who were homesick like Masch and Tevez but these lads have never let it affect their perfromance which is what worries me about Carroll. He isn't happy and it's showing in his play. Now either he'll man up and settle in Liverpool or he'll just let it eat away at him all the time, unfortunatly I don't expect him to man up as he doesn't seem to even want to try and settle in Liverpool which is the biggest worry.

amiable · 07-11-2011 04:03PM

rarnes1 wrote: »

I'd have thought it would be a big relief

Having done it myself i'd have to say no

BenEadir · 07-11-2011 04:03PM

I was at the match on Saturday and spent a lot of time watching Carroll. He just looks like a fish out of water and there appears to be no bond or understanding building up between himself and Suarez at all and to be frank he appears to be out of sync with the whole team as far as I can see. (or is the team out of sync with him???)

Suarez is all about passing, clever movement, speed and out and out physical effort. Carroll is almost the opposite. I'm not saying he's lazy or doesn't try but he's on a completely different wavelength to Suarez. He's a target man looking to get on the end of crosses and balls into the box to either shoot himself or knock down to another player, preferably his strike partner Suarez. Carroll has more skills and more to offer than other 'target' men like e.g. Kevin Davies, Carlton Cole or our own Niall Quin of old but ultimatley he's a target man and that's what he offers. Why should we expect anything else?

Suarez on the other hand doesn't seem interested in playing the Kevin Philips type role. He's got far more to offer and won't settle for being the guy who 'plays off' anyone else to get the knock downs. He's his own man and has the confidence and ability to receive the ball outside the box and do the things we love to see him do i.e. skin defenders alive with his trickery and score goals.

The problem therefore as I see it is we bought two key players at the same time who aren't compatible with each other. Suarez would probably love to be playing with Torres (and may have been thinking that in the run up to the transfer before it all changed on the last day??) but had committed to moving to LFC so is getting on with it. I don't want to start another "if we still had Torres" type discussion but nevertheless - hypotethically and all that

- I just feel with a fit Torres and Suarez up front we'd be running amok goal wise. Defenders wouldn't know what to do once the pair of them got going.

If we were going to invest heavily in a striker to replace Torres we should have made sure the other players coming in were compatible with the new guy and he would either fit into the existing system of play or we would adopt a new system which would utilise his strengths to their maximum. We haven't done that.

So where to from here?

I honestly think the club has to decide whether they want to keep Carroll or not and if they do they have to commit to a system which see's him playing to his strengths i.e. TWO proper wide men (Bellamy left and Downing right or Downing left and Gerrard right) with Carroll up front on his own supported by Adam/Gerrard + Lucas in the middle with Suarez in the hole or some similar system which sees the full backs having more responsibility for getting down the line to supply crosses.

IMO if we don't commit to a consistent formation which seeks to supply Carroll the ammunition he needs to be effective we're not only going to have more days like Swansea but we're going to devalue Carroll to such an extent that we'll be lucky to get €10m for him at the end of the year.

If he's not working out (for either footballing or personal/homesick reasons) we need to get rid of him a la Robbie Keane ASAP while the jury is still out and get someone in who is more compatible to the way Suarez plays.

Ben

SlickRic · 07-11-2011 04:11PM

BenEadir wrote: »

IMO if we don't commit to a consistent formation which seeks to supply Carroll the ammunition he needs to be effective we're not only going to have more days like Swansea but we're going to devalue Carroll to such an extent that we'll be lucky to get €10m for him at the end of the year.

never a truer word spoken on the forum.

the abuse Andy gets from some quarters is laughable.

1) the fee isn't his fault.
2) the team aren't playing to his strengths.

Kenny has decisions to make in terms of our team strategy. if Carroll is going to be persisted with, there must be people willing to burst from deep and get in and around him. plus we need consistent wing play.

or else, the guy is just being wasted.

opr · 07-11-2011 04:27PM

Reserves are playing Blackburn tonight at 7pm on LFCTV.

Opr

Leiva · 07-11-2011 04:30PM

BenEadir wrote: »

IMO if we don't commit to a consistent formation which seeks to supply Carroll the ammunition he needs to be effective we're not only going to have more days like Swansea but we're going to devalue Carroll to such an extent that we'll be lucky to get €10m for him at the end of the year.

Ben

Excellent post BenEadir

SlickRic wrote: »

Kenny has decisions to make in terms of our team strategy. if Carroll is going to be persisted with, there must be people willing to burst from deep and get in and around him. plus we need consistent wing play.

or else, the guy is just being wasted.

Question:
If Kenny does put in all the resources to make sure Carroll gets the supply and the off-the-ball support required , do you think he is capable of achieving what you would expect , and why ?

Admittedly maybe it has been hit and hope up to Carroll without the proper support play , but i still have my doubts and think he cant cut the mustard

Tusky · 07-11-2011 04:32PM

SlickRic wrote: »

never a truer word spoken on the forum.

the abuse Andy gets from some quarters is laughable.

1) the fee isn't his fault.
2) the team aren't playing to his strengths.

Both of the above may be true.

But Is finishing one of his strengths? Because the ball was put on a plate for him at the weekend and he hit the crossbar from about 6 yards out. And from all of our corners I dont remember him really standing out as a goal threat, despite his supposed prowess in the air. The management deserve criticism for signing him at the price they did, and he deserves criticism for playing well below his ability.

SlickRic wrote: »

the least of our problems is Carroll by the way. what an easy scapegoat he is going to be.

How is he the least of our problems? We have scored 14 goals from 11 games, a terrible return and one that has cost us points.

On the other hand, our centre forward is not scoring goals. Those two problems are linked. Many people are posting up the amount of chances we are creating but not scoring - Carroll is meant to be the one getting on the end of those chances. If not, then what is he? Hes not creative, hes not going to provide assists. Hes there to convert chances into goals.

1) our complete reliance on Suarez for creativity.

We dont just rely on him for creativity, we are overly reliant on him for goals, because Carroll and the wingers aren't scoring.

I'm not turning Carroll into a scapegoal - there are many problems with the team, CB, CM, on the wings and at CF. But the fact that we dont have a goal scoring centre forward IS a glaring problem in the team.

Sgt Pepper 64 · 07-11-2011 04:48PM

SlickRic wrote: »

never a truer word spoken on the forum.

the abuse Andy gets from some quarters is laughable.

1) the fee isn't his fault.
2) the team aren't playing to his strengths.

Kenny has decisions to make in terms of our team strategy. if Carroll is going to be persisted with, there must be people willing to burst from deep and get in and around him. plus we need consistent wing play.

or else, the guy is just being wasted.

Funny thing is, you could easily delete "Carroll" and insert "Torres"
Same abuse\excuses\proposed solutions apply.
IMO, both players are simply not good enough for the teams they respectively play for and yes, I blame Roman for fecking up both our teams with his vanity - no sense pursuit and purchase of Torres.

Mr Alan · 07-11-2011 04:51PM

Both criticisms should not be anywhere near as extreme as they are though. But hey...this is the same fanbase who seemingly wanted to string our Champions League winning manager up when we were on course for our best ever finish in the PL. So it's not really surprising.

Personally I can kinda see the positives in cursing the fact we're not able to turn the occassional draws into wins against lesser teams despite all the chances we create. That's where we were 4/5 years ago & is a hell of a lot nicer place to be than where we were this time last year when those same teams were comfortably outplaying & indeed beating us.

Tusky · 07-11-2011 04:57PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

Both criticisms should not be anywhere near as extreme as they are though. But hey...this is the same fanbase who seemingly wanted to string our Champions League winning manager up when we were on course for our best ever finish in the PL. So it's not really surprising.

Personally I can kinda see the positives in cursing the fact we're not able to turn the occassional draws into wins against lesser teams despite all the chances we create. That's where we were 4/5 years ago & is a hell of a lot nicer place to be than where we were this time last year when those same teams were comfortably outplaying & indeed beating us.

2 things.

1. Stop lumping any fans who have criticisms in with the idiots who were calling for Rafas head. I never called for his head and neither did many others.

2. People need to stop using last season as a barometre for success. That was one of the darkest hours the club has ever seen, on and off the pitch. Kenny showed that the squad was much better than that and has invested heavily. Our sights need to be set much much higher. We should be looking for a significant improvement on last seasons 7th place finish - but if anything, we have gone backwards.

Leiva · 07-11-2011 05:03PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

Both criticisms should not be anywhere near as extreme as they are though. But hey...this is the same fanbase who seemingly wanted to string our Champions League winning manager up when we were on course for our best ever finish in the PL. So it's not really surprising.

.

You have said this now in the past few posts ...who are you referring to ?

SlickRic · 07-11-2011 05:45PM

If Kenny does put in all the resources to make sure Carroll gets the supply and the off-the-ball support required , do you think he is capable of achieving what you would expect , and why ?

mixednuts...

it depends what's expected of him.

if you expect Torres-like incisiveness with speed and skill, then you'll be disappointed. but if you expect a target man, with great strength, more than capable of scoring with his head or feet, who can score 15+ goals this season, then hopefully kick on for the next year, 2 or 5...then you have him.

we shouldn't have paid the amount we did, but if that continues to be the expectation on him from some, we're not going to be a happy bunch.

Tusky wrote: »

How is he the least of our problems? We have scored 14 goals from 11 games, a terrible return and one that has cost us points.

because he hasn't had a run of games even to get into the team, plus his general play has been decent IMO.

if Carroll had started almost every game this year, and played poorly in all of them, and not scored, then i'd agree. but it's a team issue IMO. our midfield has absolutely no goal threat in it right now. our only goal threat consistently is Suarez because, invariably, he can almost do it on his own.

Adam isn't getting to support like he should, Downing has been meh-poor, and Henderson has been verging on terrible; while Dirk hasn't been much better.

Kenny also doesn't seem to know his best team, which is an issue.

my only point was that lumping the majority of our issues on Andy Carroll is extremely simplistic.

it's frightening the amount of people who want rid (speaking generally here). there is literally no patience in fans at all anymore. it's all "now, now, now". i mean FFS, some Arsenal fans wanted Wenger out. there was a time a couple of seasons ago some Utd fans wanted Fergie out.

it's pathetic.

just because Chelsea and Man City have the money to accelerate to the top at a rate of knots, does not mean we can do the same. we have to take a different approach, and if we're to take this approach we need a modicum of patience from the support.

Devilman40k · 07-11-2011 06:04PM

SlickRic wrote: »

just because Chelsea and Man City have the money to accelerate to the top at a rate of knots, does not mean we can do the same. we have to take a different approach, and if we're to take this approach we need a modicum of patience from the support.

We're not aiming for these 2 yet though....my problem is that the teams we are aiming for, Arsenal and Spurs BOTH have strikers who will guarantee more than 15 goals a season and have better chance/conversion ratios as a result.

Nothing I have seen from Carroll suggests he has the ability or attitude to become a 20/25 goals a season striker which a £35m fee should buy you.

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

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