Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

janeyb · 04-11-2011 03:45PM

I didn't mean it to sound daunting at all!! Sorry, just aware that its pretty much a pain in the ass, and people are busy enough. The best thing I have to offer is good karma!

Cheers.

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 03:46PM

Deleted User wrote: »

18 months of injuries for 7 players? Not one bar Archer managing to even kit out more than 20 times in 18months.

Don't worry, shouldn't let a little bit of rationality get in the way of a good old bid of blind nonsense though.

I don't think you are being rational though. Murray and Sherry really only came through in the latter half of last season. It's fictional to say we could have been starting either 18 months ago, for example. Zebo is still very raw, etc.

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 03:53PM

MaryKing wrote: »

As for the B+I Cup - doesn't matter what level it is - it is a challenge for those players (if it wasn't they would be winning it easily). Its good mental preparation for cup rugby.

That's an interesting perspective.

Tbh, we've had a great A team for the last two or three seasons but I think they'll be poor this year. Saw them against Connacht at one of the preseasons and they were quite poor.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 04-11-2011 04:01PM

MaryKing wrote: »

Personally think he is better off learning from one of the best locks in the world. If he is not able to displace any of the Munster encumbents, he is not that good anyway.

Games are an important part of development. If he got 40 professional caps in two years somewhere it would be really positive for his development.

04-11-2011 04:04PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I don't think you are being rational though. Murray and Sherry really only came through in the latter half of last season. It's fictional to say we could have been starting either 18 months ago, for example. Zebo is still very raw, etc.

You have completely missed my point in a way that I'm quite surprised by. I'm not arguing for specific players to be included week in week out etc, I'm arguing for any evidence of squad building that hasn't been due fully to injuries, of which there simply hasn't been any useful examples.

Nobody has amassed significant gametime outside of "the golden 22" and perhaps 5 other players in the past 18 months. Eddie O'Sullivan was pillored for this on a national scale, yet McGahan has genuinely continued in exactly the same vein as Kidney had before, by rigidly sticking to the players that have been around unless he has been absolutely forced to.

It doesn't matter whether or not you guys even have an academy if that continues. That is the crux of the argument.

GerM · 04-11-2011 04:08PM

Nagle would learn much more playing regularly in a top side that play a forward geared game against international players each week than he would training with anyone at this point. At Northampton, if he got his game, he would have been alongside some of the top rated forwards in Europe. He's not going to learn more off POC from sitting in the stands or from the couple of days each week the Cork and Limerick lads train together.

MaryKing · 04-11-2011 04:08PM

Deleted User wrote: »

18 months of injuries for 7 players? Not one bar Archer managing to even kit out more than 20 times in 18months.

Don't worry, shouldn't let a little bit of rationality get in the way of a good old bid of blind nonsense though.

Archer was playing plenty for Cork Con, along with Scanlon, Dineen, Zebo, Deasy, Nagle, Holland & P O'Mahony. So, along with the 9 Munster A games, they were kept busy.

04-11-2011 04:10PM

MaryKing wrote: »

Archer was playing plenty for Cork Con, along with Scanlon, Dineen, Zebo, Deasy, Nagle, Holland & P O'Mahony. So, along with the 9 Munster A games, they were kept busy.

so what you're saying is, that none of them were actually injured. So that Amazo's hypothesis on their inability for selection is bogus?

And that instead, McGahan simply didn't select them, because he's not bothered building a squad?

Thanks Mary.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 04-11-2011 04:13PM

MaryKing wrote: »

Archer was playing plenty for Cork Con, along with Scanlon, Dineen, Zebo, Deasy, Nagle, Holland & P O'Mahony. So, along with the 9 Munster A games, they were kept busy.

and only two of them can play together for Cork Con now since they are on full contracts now

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 04:14PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You have completely missed my point in a way that I'm quite surprised by. I'm not arguing for specific players to be included week in week out etc, I'm arguing for any evidence of squad building that hasn't been due fully to injuries, of which there simply hasn't been any useful examples.

Nobody has amassed significant gametime outside of "the golden 22" and perhaps 5 other players in the past 18 months. Eddie O'Sullivan was pillored for this on a national scale, yet McGahan has genuinely continued in exactly the same vein as Kidney had before, by rigidly sticking to the players that have been around unless he has been absolutely forced to.

It doesn't matter whether or not you guys even have an academy if that continues. That is the crux of the argument.

But the two forwards who would have amassed more gametime last season were injured. it's not like we've got loads of guys ready to step into the ML even, it just so happened that those that were got injured. If McGahan's hand was forced it was forced into not picking them due to injury.

MaryKing · 04-11-2011 04:15PM

GerM wrote: »

Nagle would learn much more playing regularly in a top side that play a forward geared game against international players each week than he would training with anyone at this point. At Northampton, if he got his game, he would have been alongside some of the top rated forwards in Europe. He's not going to learn more off POC from sitting in the stands or from the couple of days each week the Cork and Limerick lads train together.

He could also be just sitting in the stands as well.

Eoin Reddan said in an interview that he regretted not hanging on in Munster. According to an interview in the Irish Times he said that Gaffney told him around Christmas that he could not guarantee he could give him a contract and to wait until the spring. As it happened someone from Wasps rang and he was so disappointed by Gaffneys news he took Wasps offer.

Now, considering Reddan did fairly well with Wasps, its a bit surprising that he regrets not hanging on in Munster (and displacing Peter Stringer as first choice).

I would also say that Cronin probably regrets not staying with Munster - the way injuries have worked out for Flannery, he would now be starting hooker for his home team rather than competing with a fairly good South African for Leinster.

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 04:17PM

GerM wrote: »

Nagle would learn much more playing regularly in a top side that play a forward geared game against international players each week than he would training with anyone at this point. At Northampton, if he got his game, he would have been alongside some of the top rated forwards in Europe. He's not going to learn more off POC from sitting in the stands or from the couple of days each week the Cork and Limerick lads train together.

Conversely, Nagle would have expected to get a lot of time during the RWC but again, he got injured.

MaryKing · 04-11-2011 04:18PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

and only two of them can play together for Cork Con now since they are on full contracts now

I was replying to the point that Archer was not getting any gametime over the last 18 months.. Since THs are in rather short supply this season with Munster, Archer will get plenty of game time.

MaryKing · 04-11-2011 04:27PM

Deleted User wrote: »

so what you're saying is, that none of them were actually injured. So that Amazo's hypothesis on their inability for selection is bogus?

And that instead, McGahan simply didn't select them, because he's not bothered building a squad?

Thanks Mary.

Those mentioned above were all fit for the AIL Final against Belevedere. Peter O'Mahony was just back from his injury and played on the wing I think because he had lost his place in the backrow in the knockout stages.

I also remember hearing that Sherry played a B+I cup game on the Friday and an AIL game for Garryown on the Saturday. As you can see, all of them were kept very busy - at the very least, they will get 9 'A' Cup games (B+I plus interpros) during the season.

04-11-2011 04:30PM

MaryKing wrote: »

Those mentioned above were all fit for the AIL Final against Belevedere. Peter O'Mahony was just back from his injury and played on the wing I think because he had lost his place in the backrow in the knockout stages.

I also remember hearing that Sherry played a B+I cup game on the Friday and an AIL game for Garryown on the Saturday. As you can see, all of them were kept very busy - at the very least, they will get 9 'A' Cup games (B+I plus interpros) during the season.

I doubt anyone would compare the standards and intensities of B&I cup, AIL and 'A' games to anything near a HEC game.

You learn best by doing, they need Pro12 time, not B&I time.

You don't become a "HEC player" by toiling around in the AIL for seasons...

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 04:34PM

MaryKing wrote: »

Those mentioned above were all fit for the AIL Final against Belevedere. Peter O'Mahony was just back from his injury and played on the wing I think because he had lost his place in the backrow in the knockout stages.

I also remember hearing that Sherry played a B+I cup game on the Friday and an AIL game for Garryown on the Saturday. As you can see, all of them were kept very busy - at the very least, they will get 9 'A' Cup games (B+I plus interpros) during the season.

O'Mahony was back for the semi-final and played wing (quite well too), he was dropped for the final for reasons best known to Con, because he was class when he came on but the game was already going against them.

MaryKing · 04-11-2011 04:46PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I doubt anyone would compare the standards and intensities of B&I cup, AIL and 'A' games to anything near a HEC game.

You learn best by doing, they need Pro12 time, not B&I time.

You don't become a "HEC player" by toiling around in the AIL for seasons...

James Coughlan seems to have found it good preparation - he has been toiling away in the AIL for years.

I don't recall claiming that they were as intense as a HC game. I was pointing out that they were getting gametime every week (and learning to win and lose). When added up with the Pro12 games they get, its not too bad.

EDIT: Before writing off the AIL + B+I Cup, bear in mind that Nagle (MOTM against Australia), Murray (capped), POM (youngest ever Munster captain) & Sherry (called up to the world cup) seemed to have made the transition easily enough, might be working.

04-11-2011 04:50PM

MaryKing wrote: »

I was pointing out that they were getting gametime every week (and learning to win and lose). When added up with the Pro12 games they get, its not too bad.

but completely and utterly incomparable to the situations at Leinster and Ulster which was what the article read as and which was the point that I was refuting from the off.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 04-11-2011 04:51PM

MaryKing wrote: »

James Coughlan seems to have found it good preparation - he has been toiling away in the AIL for years.

I don't recall claiming that they were as intense as a HC game. I was pointing out that they were getting gametime every week (and learning to win and lose). When added up with the Pro12 games they get, its not too bad.

Coghlan has been improving big time over the last few years but he is 10 times the player now than he was 2 years ago. It took him till he was 30ish to be a good HEC player and that is after a decade the AIL

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 04:52PM

MaryKing wrote: »

James Coughlan seems to have found it good preparation - he has been toiling away in the AIL for years.

I don't recall claiming that they were as intense as a HC game. I was pointing out that they were getting gametime every week (and learning to win and lose). When added up with the Pro12 games they get, its not too bad.

I can see both sides to this, yes AIL and B&I gametime is important, but only to a point. It's not going to give Holland the potential Nagle has, for example, or Cusack the potential Keatley has. At a certain point guys like Nagle and Keatley would get very little return for playing in AIL, and should be ahead of players with less potential.

MaryKing · 04-11-2011 04:56PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

O'Mahony was back for the semi-final and played wing (quite well too), he was dropped for the final for reasons best known to Con, because he was class when he came on but the game was already going against them.

That is what I meant to say. I knew he had played in the semi final and had been dropped. Thanks for putting it coherently.

phog · 04-11-2011 04:59PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Where are you getting those stats from phog? They're way off what the Munster Rugby site has...
Season Appearances (Sub in Brackets)
Archer 2010/2011 3+6
2011/2012 3+2

Barnes 2010/2011 4+3
2011/2012 5+1

Nagle 2010/2011 8+1
2011/2012 0+2

POM 2010/2011 1+6
2011/2012 6+1

Sherry 2010/2011 5+14
2011/2012 3+1

Zebo 2010/2011 5+4
2011/2012 1+4

Paints a very very different picture

I used the stats from Munster rugby player profiles for last season and games this season but actually counted game time during friendlies and Munster A games.

So the table now with game time to start of season and RPD12 games is as follows:

Name Age Caps at Start of Season Total Caps
Stephen Archer 24 12 17
Danny Barnes 22 9 16
Scott Deasy 23 21 27
Conor Murray 23 13 15
Ian Nagle 23 11 13
Peter O'Mahony 22 11 19
Mike Sherry 23 21 25
Simon Zebo 22 10 15

MaryKing · 04-11-2011 04:59PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Coghlan has been improving big time over the last few years but he is 10 times the player now than he was 2 years ago. It took him till he was 30ish to be a good HEC player and that is after a decade the AIL

So Coghlan was a slow learner then! There was I thinking it was Quinlan, Leamy, Foley and Wallace keeping him out.

wixfjord · 04-11-2011 05:01PM

phog wrote: »

I used the stats from last season and games this season but actually counted game time during friendlies and Munster A games.

So the table now with game time to start of season and RPD12 games is as follows:

Name Age Caps at Start of Season Total Caps
Stephen Archer 24 12 17
Danny Barnes 22 9 16
Scott Deasy 23 21 27
Conor Murray 23 13 15
Ian Nagle 23 11 13
Peter O'Mahony 22 11 19
Mike Sherry 23 21 25
Simon Zebo 22 10 15

Sub appearances are a little misleading there. Sherry has 15 from 25 caps for eg.

MaryKing · 04-11-2011 05:04PM

Deleted User wrote: »

but completely and utterly incomparable to the situations at Leinster and Ulster which was what the article read as and which was the point that I was refuting from the off.

Or McGahan speaking to a journalist who only thinks there is one kind of academy and that the situation is the same for Leinster & Ulster (mainly school based) as it is for Munster which is mainly club based.

Did you know that Donncha Ryan didn't start playing rugby until he was 18 (he was spotted by a Shannon 'scout' at a GAA game?)

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 05:05PM

wixfjord wrote: »

Sub appearances are a little misleading there. Sherry has 15 from 25 caps for eg.

Tbf, Leinster do along minutes played, which gives a better indication I guess. That being said, I think guys like Zebo can learn a lot coming off the bench. It's when you can never gets starts that you encounter difficulties.

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 05:05PM

MaryKing wrote: »

Or McGahan speaking to a journalist who only thinks there is one kind of academy and that the situation is the same for Leinster & Ulster (mainly school based) as it is for Munster which is mainly club based.

Did you know that Donncha Ryan didn't start playing rugby until he was 18 (he was spotted by a Shannon 'scout' at a GAA game?)

Ormond is going to kill you over that!

MaryKing · 04-11-2011 05:08PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I can see both sides to this, yes AIL and B&I gametime is important, but only to a point. It's not going to give Holland the potential Nagle has, for example, or Cusack the potential Keatley has. At a certain point guys like Nagle and Keatley would get very little return for playing in AIL, and should be ahead of players with less potential.

I edited my post above to include this point:

EDIT: Before writing off the AIL + B+I Cup, bear in mind that Nagle (MOTM against Australia), Murray (capped), POM (youngest ever Munster captain) & Sherry (called up to the world cup) seemed to have made the transition easily enough, might be working.

There is a point when most of them will know whether they've got it or not. The Ryan brothers could still be playing here, but they were moved on.

phog · 04-11-2011 05:10PM

wixfjord wrote: »

Sub appearances are a little misleading there. Sherry has 15 from 25 caps for eg.

Maybe so but were all Eoin O'Malley's caps for the full 80? he was the example of Leinster giving gametime earlier to their future stars.

MaryKing · 04-11-2011 05:11PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Ormond is going to kill you over that!

I presume Donncha Ryan was playing both for Ormond and Gaa and Shannon poached him!

Ormond can kill the interviewer for that, not me!

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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