I'm sorry, maybe too harsh but what the hell is going on in primary schools?

BrensBenz · 02-11-2011 03:43PM

It may be of some consolation to know that this is not just an Irish phenomenon. Earlier in my career, I had occasion to review job applications in the UK. Never was my gob so smacked!

Then, I spent time in the US. OMG it’s like totally coming here??? like soon???

For decades, UK governments have meddled with teaching methods and subject matter to be delivered by their well-trained teachers! I don’t know if Irish governments copied but some of the UK educational psycho-babble and acceptance of the almost right (which probably originated in the US) has somehow leaked into Irish classrooms.

Language (and communications) and teaching methods evolve. This evolution is evitable but is too fast for some of us; too slow for others and (totally IMO???) always downwards. I doubt if Charles Dickens’ or Emily Brontё’s gobs would go unsmacked if given a sample of, for instance, today’s “Quality” newspaper or a transcript of a Dáil speech. We may have to return to the 1960’s for an example of crafted oratory.

But isn’t it scary to think that, because of this evolution, in a few years time, rap music will be played on golden oldies shows?

spurious · 02-11-2011 04:44PM

I suppose there are a number of factors involved in creating the current mess.
In no particular order and not at all an exhaustive list:

Free Education - a great idea, but without supports (pre-school, after school, parenting classes, you name it) for those who come from families who for generations never availed of formal education, it is worse than useless.

Educational businesses - when did they last ask a grammar question in an English exam? The Dark Ages, that's when. So, let's just 'teach' what comes up in exam, not the subject. Let's produce armies of note and essay rememberers with very little in-depth understanding of any subject. Better still, let's watch our insidious influence spread as our creations play the exam game better and force real schools to join the disgusting sham.

The SEC - for not having the balls to set exam papers that could cripple the 'educational' business approach to examinations.

Better care for premature babies - it may sound awful, but 50 years ago many of the children in our classrooms, the ones with F.A.S., the ones suffering from the effects of being addicted to drugs of all sorts before birth would not have survived the first few weeks and would never have ended up in any classroom. Combine this with no effective support within the classroom and it is a recipe for disaster.

Automatic progression - some children are moving from 2nd to 3rd, from 6th class to secondary without having achieved the standard required to do so.

The educational background of civil servants - middle class, literate, educated folk making decisions for children and schools about which they know absolutely nothing. People who should know better saying things like 'they can read it at home with their parents'. Unbelievable.

Slavish following of the UK - we pretend we don't but we do and we are especially good at paying no notice when they announce they have made a hames of something. We learn nothing from their messes and less from our own.

Everything boils down to money - no idea or strategy, no matter how great will ever be introduced if it costs.

I have been teaching in inner city Dublin for over 25 years. If there was going to be any improvement in that time, I was well placed to see it. What I see is children arriving in reading even below what those I taught in the 1980s did. It's not the foreign children. It's the homegrown variety.

I remember being surprised when I started teaching that so many children left school before (then) the Inter.. I didn't know that was possible, as no-one in my school had, but here there were schools where 80 and 90 percent of the children did.

In the 80s I was teaching kids who were the first in their family to sit a State examination. I still do - almost 30 years later and there are still families where no-one has progressed educationally past what is sometimes seen as a 'joke' exam by those fortunate enough to be able to compare it with any other exam. Where was the Celtic Tiger for those families? Where was the 'free education'?

I've gone on a semi-rant, sorry. I find it so frustrating at times.

amacachi · 02-11-2011 05:07PM

spurious wrote: »

Educational businesses - when did they last ask a grammar question in an English exam? The Dark Ages, that's when. So, let's just 'teach' what comes up in exam, not the subject. Let's produce armies of note and essay rememberers with very little in-depth understanding of any subject. Better still, let's watch our insidious influence spread as our creations play the exam game better and force real schools to join the disgusting sham.

The SEC - for not having the balls to set exam papers that could cripple the 'educational' business approach to examinations.

Massive issue right there. I'd love to see exam papers having a much, much looser structure than they have now. As you say though, an entire industry would disappear overnight.
Even Higher Level maths should be extremely passable if someone can just spend an hour a night doing the questions. Each question of three parts is drawn from 4-7 possibilities. There's nothing complicated at all. The alternative now seems to be in Project Maths where they've made the questions more "relevant" but also made them much easier so that results don't fall.

Automatic progression - some children are moving from 2nd to 3rd, from 6th class to secondary without having achieved the standard required to do so.

What would you say about some streaming? Seems to be a dirty word in educational circles.

I have been teaching in inner city Dublin for over 25 years. If there was going to be any improvement in that time, I was well placed to see it. What I see is children arriving in reading even below what those I taught in the 1980s did. It's not the foreign children. It's the homegrown variety.

I remember being surprised when I started teaching that so many children left school before (then) the Inter.. I didn't know that was possible, as no-one in my school had, but here there were schools where 80 and 90 percent of the children did.

In the 80s I was teaching kids who were the first in their family to sit a State examination. I still do - almost 30 years later and there are still families where no-one has progressed educationally past what is sometimes seen as a 'joke' exam by those fortunate enough to be able to compare it with any other exam. Where was the Celtic Tiger for those families? Where was the 'free education'?

I've gone on a semi-rant, sorry. I find it so frustrating at times.

I'm fairly sure I've pissed you off in the past with saying things about teachers and the educational system but I do empathise a lot with the teachers who give a fcuk. The whole way through school I couldn't understand why anyone would want to do the job. Though I then found out that most people worked proper hours. :pac:

I think the main issue starts in the home though. Kids should be at least able to read simple books before starting primary school. There's a segment of society that has be left behind over the last 30-40 years. I've over 30 first-cousins all older than me on one side of my family and yet was the first to go to third-level. I think only 3 even did the leaving cert, and this is all in the last 20-25 years. There's a huge amount of societal issues that need to be addressed that get parents to raise their kids properly. When I was in primary school I'm sure the teachers could tell with a very high rate of accuracy which kids' parents were working.
With that background where do teachers start? Even a small class-size of say 20, if 5 (and it's a higher proportion in some schools) come in and have no idea how to read and counting to 10 is a challenge, how much time should be spent with them? It's going to take a lot of time and effort while the other kids are held back massively and spend the next 2 years doing what they already know or even less. Is that going to give them a lifelong love of learning?

spurious · 02-11-2011 05:25PM

amacachi wrote: »

What would you say about some streaming? Seems to be a dirty word in educational circles.

Another triumph of non-joined up thinking.

Mixed ability teaching (the new mantra) is about you and me sitting side by side in a class, or you, me and any of our literate colleagues. Yes of course there will be differences in how easily we understand or absorb information, but at least we are all in with a chance. In such a classroom, we can learn from each other and at different paces.

Mixed ability is not myself and yourself sitting in a room with fourteen people reading at the level of a seven year old, three Stephen Hawkings and a few non-English speakers for the craic. That's a recipe for regression, early school leavers, lots of business for the grind 'schools' and an unholy mess.

peanuthead · 02-11-2011 05:31PM

amacachi wrote: »

What would you say about some streaming? Seems to be a dirty word in educational circles.

It is a necessary evil (depending on your view of streaming of course) if you are playing the points race.

Vicious circle

But streaming is pointless if there is automatic progression anyway.

amacachi · 02-11-2011 05:55PM

spurious wrote: »

Another triumph of non-joined up thinking.

Mixed ability teaching (the new mantra) is about you and me sitting side by side in a class, or you, me and any of our literate colleagues. Yes of course there will be differences in how easily we understand or absorb information, but at least we are all in with a chance. In such a classroom, we can learn from each other and at different paces.

Mixed ability is not myself and yourself sitting in a room with fourteen people reading at the level of a seven year old, three Stephen Hawkings and a few non-English speakers for the craic. That's a recipe for regression, early school leavers, lots of business for the grind 'schools' and an unholy mess.

So other than the ideal-world version of mixed ability you don't think it works too often?

whiteandlight · 02-11-2011 06:05PM

This is a great debate!

Just a few things, as a teacher of project Maths you should hear the amount of complaining and borderline abuse in cases that we have to put up with because students won't know what exactly is in each question! The questions may seem easier to us but trust me even our best and brightest 6th year students despise the new course because of the aforementioned difficulties with interpretation and English. I think personally it's brilliant in addressing the issue of rote learning. I went looking for exam questions on Simpsons rule that I could convert into the trapezoidal rule for OL LC last year, for 11 years straight Q1b was a straightforward Simpsons rule plug into the formula question and it was only on e 12th year that I looked at it even came up in reverse looking for a height. If our papers were this predictable how can we expect students to bother learning things properly.

I agree on the mixed ability. It is a wonderful ambition to have no segregation but it is next nigh near impossible in our system primarily I would feel because of class sizes. Any class of 30 students is going to have at least 1-2 exceptionally good students and probably 3-4 mainstreamed sen pupils (or at least in my school anyways). No matter how you split the work up with different sets of homework etc those 7-8 students are so far away from each other in ability it is completely unfair. Those of the weaker ability are envious and angry with themselves for needing different easier work and the top 2 are inevitably bored at the pace the class is setting but don't want to be seen to be a swot doing extra work either. While I do my best as a teacher to not teach to the middle ground of mixed ability classes I still feel that students are just not getting the best out of it. Then again maybe I just am not god enough at it! Personally I had one experience of strict mixed ability in Maths in TY (not even OL and hl banding) and I nearly went insane as one of the top students so maybe my opinion is coloured by this

spurious · 02-11-2011 06:13PM

amacachi wrote: »

So other than the ideal-world version of mixed ability you don't think it works too often?

I haven't found it works when the gap between 'top and bottom' is more than about 3-4 years in reading ages. It frustrates both ends of the ability spectrum, especially if there are non-readers in the mix.

On the other hand, I do not think old-style streaming works either. Children who see themselves as 'the smart/not quite as smart/dumb class' will perform to that level and it's a really difficult mindset to get them out of.

Somewhere there must be a happy medium, though as a priority we need smaller class groups where children struggle with basic skills (let's not even mention behavioural issues).

who the fug · 02-11-2011 06:17PM

spurious wrote: »

I haven't found it works when the gap between 'top and bottom' is more than about 3-4 years in reading ages. It frustrates both ends of the ability spectrum, especially if there are non-readers in the mix.

On the other hand, I do not think old-style streaming works either. Children who see themselves as 'the smart/not quite as smart/dumb class' will perform to that level and it's a really difficult mindset to get them out of.

Somewhere there must be a happy medium, though as a priority we need smaller class groups where children struggle with basic skills (let's not even mention behavioural issues).

Why can't there be streaming by subject , we all have different interests and abilities why can't the system reflect this.

peanuthead · 02-11-2011 06:24PM

amacachi wrote: »

So other than the ideal-world version of mixed ability you don't think it works too often?

I know you're not asking me, but if I may come in on this:

I think mixed ability is great if it exists under the correct conditions. I also think it is great (from a secondary school perspective)from 1st to 3rd year as the junior certificate is not as competitive as the Leaving Certificate.

I do not believe it is possible, if you teach in a school where students have aspirations to go to college and do medicine/veterinary etc.. that you can do the best for those students in a mixed ability classroom.

The way in which we are being asked to teach does not represent what we are aiming for - it is a sad way to look at it, but it is also realistic.

Back to mixed ability. It does not work if you have , to quote spurious "myself and yourself sitting in a room with fourteen people reading at the level of a seven year old, three Stephen Hawkings and a few non-English speakers for the craic. "

It's not a mixture of ability. Well, it is, but it's missing the point.

How can I explain this better....

(It's actually really hard!!!)

Okay I have a 2nd year class who are mixed ability and due to the relatively small gaps between each student it works well. Those who need to be challenged can be, those who are constantly challenged are encouraged to work a bit harder to keep up and will generally pass exams and the majority or average students are at a pace that is comfortable but occasionally challenging for them. Everyone is happy and the class, being like that from day one, have adjusted really well.

However, I've a 3rd year class where the gap between the average students and the brighter ones is about 2 grades and the weaker students are failing and this is impossible to work with. No doubt about it the weaker ones are not getting the attention they need and the stronger ones will definitely not do as well as they could have under different circumstances, because the only differentiation that would work here would be 3 entirely different lessons.

Hopefully that makes sense.

peanuthead · 02-11-2011 06:25PM

who the fug wrote: »

Why can't there be streaming by subject , we all have different interests and abilities why can't the system reflect this.

There is in a lot of schools. AFAIK streaming/mixed ability is less of a whole school approach and more of a subject department decision nowadays

whydoibother? · 02-11-2011 06:26PM

Could it be anything to do with the number of subjects that children study in primary school now? When I was in sixth class, most of the morning was devoted to Irish and maths, and English would get about 40 minutes to an hour later on in the day. Things like History, Geography, Nature Studies etc. would get about an hour every two weeks if I remember correctly. I'll admit that I can't remember a single thing that I learned in these latter classes, but I went to secondary school well able to read anything put in front of me, and with good numerical skills. I think that is the point of primary school. You gain the skills for serious learning of information later. There is no point pretending that we can make scientists out of 10 year olds. They won't remember any of it anyway. Teach them relevant skills that will be reinforced from then on.

peanuthead · 02-11-2011 06:28PM

whydoibother? wrote: »

Could it be anything to do with the number of subjects that children study in primary school now? When I was in sixth class, most of the morning was devoted to Irish and maths, and English would get about 40 minutes to an hour later on in the day. Things like History, Geography, Nature Studies etc. would get about an hour every two weeks if I remember correctly. I'll admit that I can't remember a single thing that I learned in these latter classes, but I went to secondary school well able to read anything put in front of me, and with good numerical skills. I think that is the point of primary school. You gain the skills for serious learning of information later. There is no point pretending that we can make scientists out of 10 year olds. They won't remember any of it anyway. Teach them relevant skills that will be reinforced from then on.

Some primary schools teach French

meemeep · 02-11-2011 06:30PM

I have children in primary and secondary and I can't help feeling that the best place to be in a class, is in the middle. It seems that the middle is where the teaching is aimed. Those struggling, may get some (pathetic) resource hours if they are lucky, but the really bright ones get nothing except maybe an extra meaningless worksheet. I've one child who was extremely good at maths all the way through, but now I reckon that he has joined the middle ranks - there was no way the teacher could keep him interested - it was down to us. His homework is so easy it's laughable. And that's what he does - he laughs. On the other hand his reading is only OK, but OK seems to be just fine.

On the original topic though- I must say their spelling and grammar is quite good. I left school in the dark ages, have a degree in English and their grammar is better than mine - I honestly don't remember learning any English grammar. I suppose it comes down to individual teachers.

amacachi · 02-11-2011 06:31PM

spurious wrote: »

I haven't found it works when the gap between 'top and bottom' is more than about 3-4 years in reading ages. It frustrates both ends of the ability spectrum, especially if there are non-readers in the mix.

On the other hand, I do not think old-style streaming works either. Children who see themselves as 'the smart/not quite as smart/dumb class' will perform to that level and it's a really difficult mindset to get them out of.

Somewhere there must be a happy medium, though as a priority we need smaller class groups where children struggle with basic skills (let's not even mention behavioural issues).

Obviously I'm asking this as someone from the "outside" so forgive me if some questions come across as nitpicking, they're not meant to. I've found when streaming is mentioned that the idea of "labelling" kids too early is seen as a negative, but as you said kids do that even without streaming. When teaching a large mixed-ability class surely the not as smart kids know where they are in the pecking order and perform to that anyway? At least with streaming the kids in each class are in the same boat so some teaching can actually get done.

Also as a personal observation, and coming back to what I said earlier about parents, I imagine behaviour is becoming more of an issue over time. I'm not talking about violence or even "proper" disruptive behaviour but I've noticed that amongst my younger cousins and friends' brothers and sisters that it seems like they just can't concentrate or settle on one thing. I hate when video games etc. are blamed for ills but I'm starting to wonder if there's something to it.

amacachi · 02-11-2011 06:36PM

peanuthead wrote: »

However, I've a 3rd year class where the gap between the average students and the brighter ones is about 2 grades and the weaker students are failing and this is impossible to work with. No doubt about it the weaker ones are not getting the attention they need and the stronger ones will definitely not do as well as they could have under different circumstances, because the only differentiation that would work here would be 3 entirely different lessons.

Hopefully that makes sense.

Obviously there's a difference between secondary and primary school but I wonder if the relatively small school sizes we have compared to elsewhere makes it harder to make ideal classes. If there's only one class for each year (as in the school I went to) there's obviously little chance of doing anything other than having a huge gap between the kids in each class.

meemeep wrote: »

I have children in primary and secondary and I can't help feeling that the best place to be in a class, is in the middle. It seems that the middle is where the teaching is aimed. Those struggling, may get some (pathetic) resource hours if they are lucky, but the really bright ones get nothing except maybe an extra meaningless worksheet. I've one child who was extremely good at maths all the way through, but now I reckon that he has joined the middle ranks - there was no way the teacher could keep him interested - it was down to us. His homework is so easy it's laughable. And that's what he does - he laughs. On the other hand his reading is only OK, but OK seems to be just fine.

Get a secondary school maths book for him. The worst thing that happened to me in school was letting myself stall with what was being done in school.

professore · 02-11-2011 06:36PM

jimstir wrote: »

They spell better in the foreign language because they DON'T txt (text) in foreign languages. Texting is the reason why spelling in English has become so poor.

Of course people text in their own language???? This makes no sense whatsoever.

whydoibother? · 02-11-2011 06:36PM

peanuthead wrote: »

Some primary schools teach French

Yes, that is one of the subjects I was thinking of that has been introduced recently. I know people say it's good to start learning languages young, but is two new ones along with your native language before you're 12 really a good idea? I think a choice should be made between a European language or Irish personally, but that's a different debate.

There are much more questionable things than French taking up hours upon hours in the primary school day. There can be hours and hours of singing/art/Irish dancing etc. I know kids need a childhood too, and I don't want to see them studying "hard" at that age, but there needs to be a dedicated amount of time devoted to things like English grammar and maths (and more than at present).

freire · 02-11-2011 06:44PM

professore wrote: »

Of course people text in their own language???? This makes no sense whatsoever.

I think the idea is they (Irish nationals in the main) don't text in a second language e.g. French, Spanish.

implausible · 02-11-2011 06:46PM

spurious wrote: »

I haven't found it works when the gap between 'top and bottom' is more than about 3-4 years in reading ages. It frustrates both ends of the ability spectrum, especially if there are non-readers in the mix.

Spot on.

The problem I have with mixed ability is that entrance into schools isn't mixed ability. I'll give an example from the town I teach in - there are four schools - a gaelcholáiste where the fluent, brightest and best go, a convent school, a boys' college and a 'tech'. The first three take the brightest, the well-behaved and a disproportionate amount of middle-class students (the parents of whom can manage the enrolment fee, voluntary contributions and the full whack for schoolbooks). The vocational school ends up with the less able student, the special needs students (due to our 'wonderful' facilities), those whose first language isn't English, children coming from disadvantaged homes, those who have been 'asked' to leave other schools and a lot of traveller boys. In a fair system, 3 special needs students, 4 traveller boys and a smattering of Polish students wouldn't be an issue as they would be absorbed into the student body, mixed among different classes and be better able to conform and/or work harder. However, when you put the students I've mentioned into a class of twenty, the standard drops, the good student suffers and the below average student doesn't reach his/her potential.

Our school is falling over itself to promote mixed ability, while the other schools, where this would be far more feasible, carry on streaming as usual.

storker · 02-11-2011 07:07PM

trashcan wrote: »

Not a teacher, but this subject is a particular bugbear of mine. I'm in my forties and the poor standard of grammar among even people in their twenties, just astounds me. Should of, could of, would of, really gets my goat in particular (I've even seen a solicitor use this in official correspondence). Also the mis-use of their, they're and there. Shocking. How is it possible to go through at least two levels of education and not know this stuff ? And if you correct this kind of thing on Internet message boards you're just a grammar Nazi. It absolutely does matter, and to pretend it doesn't is just pandering to ignorance and laziness. I know there is a view that language develops and that common usage someone legitimises certain words/phrases. Somethings however are just wrong, wrong, wrong.

Where I notice this most is in the media, radio in particular. I remember being told in school (Leaving Cert 1984) that anyone who was interested in a career in journalism would need to have honours English as a basic requirement. Yet listening to the radio these days I can't help think of how wrong this was as the mispronunciations, incorrect prepositions, could-ofs, should-ofs, instances of non-agreeement between verb and subject come flying through the ether.

Honours English? Semi-literate will do fine, it seems...

Stork

amacachi · 02-11-2011 07:36PM

storker wrote: »

Where I notice this most is in the media, radio in particular. I remember being told in school (Leaving Cert 1984) that anyone who was interested in a career in journalism would need to have honours English as a basic requirement. Yet listening to the radio these days I can't help think of how wrong this was as the mispronunciations, incorrect prepositions, could-ofs, should-ofs, instances of non-agreeement between verb and subject come flying through the ether.

Honours English? Semi-literate will do fine, it seems...

Stork

The way the marking scheme for English works is that 10% goes for mechanics. However if the essay is worth 70% then only 7/10% of the mechanics marks are given. Unless there's a huge discrepency in the quality of the mechanics compared to the quality of the other components of the answer there may as well be no marks going for spelling/punctuation at all.

E.T. · 02-11-2011 08:30PM

amacachi wrote: »

Kids should be at least able to read simple books before starting primary school.

amacachi wrote: »

With that background where do teachers start? Even a small class-size of say 20, if 5 (and it's a higher proportion in some schools) come in and have no idea how to read and counting to 10 is a challenge, how much time should be spent with them? It's going to take a lot of time and effort while the other kids are held back massively and spend the next 2 years doing what they already know or even less. Is that going to give them a lifelong love of learning?

Have to say, as an infant teacher, it would make my life a million times easier if all children could read starting school, but it's not realistic. Children learn to read at different paces, some just pick it up and read from a very early age. Others may not learn how to read simple books until they're 6 or 7 at the earliest. I'm not even including children with SEN, this is referring solely to children of average ability, and above.

Ireland and the UK are some of the only countries in the EU where children start school so young. In many other countries they don't start formal schooling until the age of 7. They do have very structured playschools/preschools though.

lily09 · 02-11-2011 08:51PM

Read before coming to school...A huge amount of the children I have taught in infants have never heard a nursery rhyme. One poor child brought in an instruction manual for a washing machine on World Book Day because he had no books at home.

E.T. · 02-11-2011 09:02PM

That's really sad lily09. Do you ever think that the idea of teaching/education is becoming more removed from real life?

Loads of the kids I've taught have educational toys, games, dvds etc but very few of them play with things like jigsaws, beads, threading. Things that we used in school that encouraged fine-motor development, co-ordination and patience. Counting things in the environment, children using money in shops (ie parents letting them pay) - these don't seem to happen any more.

golden virginia · 02-11-2011 09:23PM

About literacy, i dont know if people here about the JCSP library. Several Deis (disadvantaged) second level schools have them - A fully stocked library with a librarian.

Its much more important to give this to primary schools. Most students come to second level at 13 years of age. it would be far more productive to give them a book when the are first learning to read!

E.T. · 02-11-2011 09:27PM

There was a scheme where a grant was given for each student for class/school libraries. It was around €2 per child as far as I can remember, and teachers got to choose books from the county library for schools. That was stopped a few years ago, no more money to replace books or purchase more since.

whydoibother? · 02-11-2011 09:30PM

E.T. wrote: »

There was a scheme where a grant was given for each student for class/school libraries. It was around €2 per child as far as I can remember, and teachers got to choose books from the county library for schools. That was stopped a few years ago, no more money to replace books or purchase more since.

I remember that. The library van used to go around to the schools. I got to go pick the books!:D

golden virginia · 02-11-2011 09:39PM

ET thats fairly sad. If as a county we want the next generation to be literate then we need to provide reading material. As half the county is on the dole we cant expect parents to forgo food for the children in order to give them books at mealtime. The government needs to seriously rethink its priorities towards primary level education.

amacachi · 02-11-2011 10:02PM

lily09 wrote: »

Read before coming to school...A huge amount of the children I have taught in infants have never heard a nursery rhyme. One poor child brought in an instruction manual for a washing machine on World Book Day because he had no books at home.

As I said, it comes back to the parents.

EDIT: Actually mentioned this thread to my dad earlier and was saying what I found primary school like and how imagined the teachers felt. He compared it a bit to when he managed an under-8s football team in a council estate back in the day. Not one parent went along and he was responsible for around 30 kids every week they had a match. He'd try to let everyone get 10 minutes instead of having half of them get no time at all. Every week from a pool of 10 kids there'd be up to 5 whose parents wouldn't be home and he'd have to look after the lads til the parents came home then to our house. After a couple of incidents where these feckless parents left then came back giving out that their son only got 10 minutes on the pitch he gave it up. As with teachers a lot of people saw him as a babysitter and didn't care what happened unless they got a chance to complain at him once in a while.

I'm sorry, maybe too harsh but what the hell is going on in primary schools?

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