I'm sorry, maybe too harsh but what the hell is going on in primary schools?

whiteandlight · 01-11-2011 11:11PM

As an interesting aside on the Maths by the way at my project Maths inservice on fractions, we were flabbergasted to be told to assume that students in first year have never, I repeat never, heard of fractions? When questioned as to why given it is on the syllabus for primary schools, they said during the research for project maths they found that the majority of students do not know what a fraction is or how to use it on entering first year. And they also said it was outside their remit to follow up on this glaring finding! With a syllabus to cover and one that is ever more 'wordy' as the students describe it we don't have time to teach fractions from the beginning?

Oh and just to point out I am by no means blaming the primary teachers. It seems to be an overall failing of the system including society expectations and parents.

tsoparno · 01-11-2011 11:12PM

My Tupence:
Started college after 17yrs out of school, really struggling with grammar and spellings(god bless google) but some of this txt speak is encouraged for note taking, which it does come in handy for, instead of totally getting away from it.

P.S. did anyone else search OP's original post for spelling mistakes:)

E.T. · 01-11-2011 11:26PM

Musicmental85 wrote: »

As an interesting aside on the Maths by the way at my project Maths inservice on fractions, we were flabbergasted to be told to assume that students in first year have never, I repeat never, heard of fractions? When questioned as to why given it is on the syllabus for primary schools, they said during the research for project maths they found that the majority of students do not know what a fraction is or how to use it on entering first year. And they also said it was outside their remit to follow up on this glaring finding! With a syllabus to cover and one that is ever more 'wordy' as the students describe it we don't have time to teach fractions from the beginning?

Oh and just to point out I am by no means blaming the primary teachers. It seems to be an overall failing of the system including society expectations and parents.

That's crazy - fractions are on the curriculum from Second class on. I usually introduce the concept of "half" informally with infants - folding shapes in half, dividing sets of beads/counters in half etc. It's not on the curriculum but "half" is a word they do hear and I don't want them to go on with the idea that it just means "some".

whiteandlight · 01-11-2011 11:33PM

That's what we said, I mean obviously we will teach addition, subtraction, multiplication and division of fractions but they really should know what a fraction is by the age of twelve,even for life!

trebormurf · 01-11-2011 11:38PM

Finger painting & singing - primary school education in Ireland in a nutshell.

roe_cat · 01-11-2011 11:40PM

just doing my pgde - was quite shocked at the start at the homework being handed up

But - I expect that many of the people complaining on this thread were good students who never saw what the weaker students in their own classes were handing up.

Literacy probably has disimproved, but I'd be wary of looking back at the good old days with rose-tinted glasses. Plenty of those weaker students probably wouldn't have made it to secondary school in years gone by

Permabear · 01-11-2011 11:40PM

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E.T. · 01-11-2011 11:48PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I don't know where you got this information, but it's incorrect. Primary teachers are not required to produce lesson plans for every subject every day. It's absolutely not a basic job requirement. Most teachers plan their lessons, but unless you're a student on teaching practice, you don't need to write down every single detail of the lesson plan.

Strange that you didn't quote this piece, from the same report:

"Teachers’ practice in the majority of the English lessons evaluated was broadly positive. In 94.6% of lessons the teachers’ classroom management skills were satisfactory. Pupils’ work was appropriately corrected in almost 90% of lessons. Similarly, in almost 90% of lessons the pupils were engaged appropriately in their learning. The majority of teachers were found to have made satisfactory preparation for the English lesson taught (76.5%), to have used appropriate teaching approaches in the lesson (83.5%) and to have provided appropriate learning activities for the pupils (83.8%). Effective use of resources was evident in almost 82% of lessons."

trashcan · 01-11-2011 11:53PM

Not a teacher, but this subject is a particular bugbear of mine. I'm in my forties and the poor standard of grammar among even people in their twenties, just astounds me. Should of, could of, would of, really gets my goat in particular (I've even seen a solicitor use this in official correspondence). Also the mis-use of their, they're and there. Shocking. How is it possible to go through at least two levels of education and not know this stuff ? And if you correct this kind of thing on Internet message boards you're just a grammar Nazi. It absolutely does matter, and to pretend it doesn't is just pandering to ignorance and laziness. I know there is a view that language develops and that common usage someone legitimises certain words/phrases. Somethings however are just wrong, wrong, wrong.

RealJohn · 01-11-2011 11:55PM

E.T. wrote: »

I don't know where you got this information, but it's incorrect. Primary teachers are not required to produce lesson plans for every subject every day. It's absolutely not a basic job requirement. Most teachers plan their lessons, but unless you're a student on teaching practice, you don't need to write down every single detail of the lesson plan.

Strange that you didn't quote this piece, from the same report:

"Teachers’ practice in the majority of the English lessons evaluated was broadly positive. In 94.6% of lessons the teachers’ classroom management skills were satisfactory. Pupils’ work was appropriately corrected in almost 90% of lessons. Similarly, in almost 90% of lessons the pupils were engaged appropriately in their learning. The majority of teachers were found to have made satisfactory preparation for the English lesson taught (76.5%), to have used appropriate teaching approaches in the lesson (83.5%) and to have provided appropriate learning activities for the pupils (83.8%). Effective use of resources was evident in almost 82% of lessons."

"Satisfactory" is hardly what we're aiming for here but I think the more important point is that if only 76.5% of teachers were satisfactorily prepared then 23.5% weren't. Which is nearly one out of every four. That is not a positive statistic in my book.

amacachi · 01-11-2011 11:59PM

Musicmental85 wrote: »

As an interesting aside on the Maths by the way at my project Maths inservice on fractions, we were flabbergasted to be told to assume that students in first year have never, I repeat never, heard of fractions?

I still say that this attitude of taking the lowest expectations that apply to less than 10% of kids and applying it to a whole class is completely ridiculous and when applied year after year it becomes true.

E.T. · 02-11-2011 12:05AM

RealJohn wrote: »

"Satisfactory" is hardly what we're aiming for here but I think the more important point is that if only 76.5% of teachers were satisfactorily prepared then 23.5% weren't. Which is nearly one out of every four. That is not a positive statistic in my book.

"Satisfactory" is the word the Inspectorate use in general for reports. When you pass your Dip year, you're deemed "satisfactory". That's it.

The report doesn't state what preparation was looked for or asked for. Different inspectors ask for different amounts of paperwork. In our school we do long term schemes, and then fortnightly schemes with more detailed plans for all subjects, with linkage, integration, resources, assessment etc.

We have a column to tick off what has been covered, or write in an explanation if something isn't covered. Some inspectors require that teachers rewrite their fortnightly schemes in the form of a full cúntas míosiúil, and won't accept the tick off/explanation. There is no official requirement for this. It's a waste of time and paper to rewrite the exact same thing again.

RealJohn · 02-11-2011 12:05AM

amacachi wrote: »

I still say that this attitude of taking the lowest expectations that apply to less than 10% of kids and applying it to a whole class is completely ridiculous and when applied year after year it becomes true.

I've been saying that for years. The less there is on the syllabus, the less they're going to learn.

E.T. · 02-11-2011 12:07AM

RealJohn wrote: »

I've been saying that for years. The less there is on the syllabus, the less they're going to learn.

I definitely agree with this, but I was given out to by an inspector before for teaching to an average level and then giving extra individual work to more able children, and helping weaker children. They said I should be teaching to the weakest level. I wouldn't have been "satisfactory" in their report!

RealJohn · 02-11-2011 12:08AM

E.T. wrote: »

"Satisfactory" is the word the Inspectorate use in general for reports. When you pass your Dip year, you're deemed "satisfactory". That's it.

The report doesn't state what preparation was looked for or asked for. Different inspectors ask for different amounts of paperwork. In our school we do long term schemes, and then fortnightly schemes with more detailed plans for all subjects, with linkage, integration, resources, assessment etc.

We have a column to tick off what has been covered, or write in an explanation if something isn't covered. Some inspectors require that teachers rewrite their fortnightly schemes in the form of a full cúntas míosiúil, and won't accept the tick off/explanation. There is no official requirement for this. It's a waste of time and paper to rewrite the exact same thing again.

Fair enough on the use of the word satisfactory (and I suppose, depending on the standard, satisfactory should be satisfactory). That still doesn't change the fact that according to that report nearly a quarter of those inspected were not satisfactory.

byhookorbycrook · 02-11-2011 12:11AM

Primary learning support teacher here,on my phone so won't do a full answer.I am teaching 25 years.Year on year,there is a huge gulf widening between children from homes where education is valued and homes where children have never even seen a book.

implausible · 02-11-2011 12:12AM

trashcan wrote: »

Should of, could of, would of, really gets my goat in particular (I've even seen a solicitor use this in official correspondence). Also the mis-use of their, they're and there. Shocking. How is it possible to go through at least two levels of education and not know this stuff ? And if you correct this kind of thing on Internet message boards you're just a grammar Nazi. It absolutely does matter, and to pretend it doesn't is just pandering to ignorance and laziness. I know there is a view that language develops and that common usage someone legitimises certain words/phrases. Somethings however are just wrong, wrong, wrong.

I totally agree, especially on the grammar nazi thing. I have read posts that I genuinely could not understand, due to lack of punctuation, excessive use of capital letters and poor spelling. You post on a computer or similar device, there are tools at hand to help, if people would only use them!

And that brings me to another point - these grammatical points are being taught. I start every term with a recap of how to use capital lessons and their/they're/there comes up regularly throughout the year and I find myself spending a class teaching it to everyone from 1st year through to PLC Communications students. The problem is, as I see it, that they are not seeing what they learn in class in practice in real life. Most of my students DO NOT READ, so they are not seeing how it is put into practice. It's like learning a Maths formula and never seeing it being used to solve a problem.

I think we may be teaching kids to run before they can walk. Creative writing and analysis of texts is being prioritised over accuracy in spelling or grammar. A Junior Certificate English Personal Essay allows 5 marks (out of 70) for 'mechanics' i.e. spelling and grammar, while at Leaving Certificate level, 'mechanics' counts for 10% of each long answer. When marking a LC essay worth 100 marks, you only deduct marks for every fourth spelling mistake!

E.T. · 02-11-2011 12:16AM

RealJohn wrote: »

Fair enough on the use of the word satisfactory (and I suppose, depending on the standard, satisfactory should be satisfactory). That still doesn't change the fact that according to that report nearly a quarter of those inspected were not satisfactory.

If you read the rest of my post, I outlined how one inspector might find one set of notes "satisfactory", while the same notes wouldn't do at all for the inspector down the road. There are no set criteria for what exactly is officially required in an individual teacher's planning. I do accept that there are teachers who don't pull their weight, but I really don't believe that it's almost a quarter of the primary teachers in Ireland.

byhookorbycrook · 02-11-2011 12:17AM

And don't get me started on inspectors... A young teacher I know was 'marked down' because her class clock wasn't the 'right kind.' Of course he didn't explain what the clock was supposed to be like and she was too afraid to ask.So,was she unsatisfactory or was he?

E.T. · 02-11-2011 12:19AM

Well as I said above, I'd probably have been deemed unsatisfactory for planning and teaching different levels in English and Maths instead of aiming at the weaker children. I had one year where I had 6 different levels of Maths between 2 classes, I'd have probably been given worst teacher in Ireland by that inspector for not just aiming at the weakest level!

Permabear · 02-11-2011 01:14AM

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dambarude · 02-11-2011 01:36AM

The problem is only going to get worse if the touted PTR increases become a reality.

It's no wonder. Being blunt about it, adding children with little or no English and children with special needs into an already large class was always going to have a negative effect.

gaeilgebeo · 02-11-2011 02:28AM

E.T. wrote: »

I'm not even sure how to respond to this! Let's start with the fact that it's not true at all.

For someone to go through primary school and "come out without a single verb in Irish" is absolutely shocking, and seems completely exaggerated.

It's hard to take a post seriously when it's so completely exaggerated and full of generalisations.

Believe me, as an Irish teacher, this not uncommon.

Cat Melodeon · 02-11-2011 12:18PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I think I was clear that my comments only represent those teachers I have worked with. They happen to pertain to schools where there is a strong ethos of inclusive education and community outreach. I don't claim that all primary school teachers are amazing. Clearly there are serious problems within the system, but blame cannot entirely be laid at the feet of teachers.

Thank you for the link, that report makes interesting reading.

golden virginia · 02-11-2011 01:45PM

I think the whole question of teachers competent practice is relative. I dont believe that any worker in similar situation where there are such variables and responsibility such as teaching is 100% competent in all areas of practice all of the time.

In my experience - a Good teacher mostly teach good but some lessons are definitely not as good as other one it its preparation, delivery and evaluation.

its stands to reason with the demands of the Job - sometimes the nurse is attentive and other times the patient is ringing and ringing the bell and just has to wait for a hassled nurse to arrive and to try to deal with you in a rushed and haphazard way, that will just have to do for now.

The incidental inspections are just snap shots. These show just how well the whole system is functioning as opposed to a proper teacher inspection.

i teach second level. I dont get my timetable until the school year starts. i then have to spend weeks trying to compile who exactly is in my class, their ability level and trying to do up a scheme of work for them for the year. it really takes me until about this time of year to have a full scheme as i would have 8-9 class groups all doing different programmes. Then I have to souce or make teaching aids and materials to deliever the lessons. meanwhile to this preparation I have actually prepare, teach and evaluate in real time.

Then , when i think I am all prepared, the game changes - for example seven more students arrive - with their own issues and what I thought i would teach with this class now has to change. Or I'm teaching my class a section of sequential work that i have planed for - taking maybe three to four weeks to complete but the lads get into a semi final and are whisked out of class for extra training and miss half the time, or the Music teachers puts on a show and its dress rehersals all the time, while I'm sent to supervise for other teachers. Or a whole load of other variables...anyway,,I suppose my point is that we shouldnt knock primary teachers... lets wait and see the inspectors reports of incidental inspections at post primary.... this is gonna be a real eye opener!

Permabear · 02-11-2011 01:53PM

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peanuthead · 02-11-2011 02:12PM

It's great to see such discussion, but just to refer back to my original post, I'm not even talking about the demands of PGDEs, lesson plans etc...

All of that is of course a factor in how we teach, and lately I have been left very disillusioned by the fact that my teaching seems to be taking a back seat to the amount of admin work I have to do. I hate it. If I wanted an admin role I'd have gone for one.

But to be honest, what I am talking about is so much more basic than that. Primary schools seem in a rush to get so many books read, so many stories read, so many poems studied - this is just with English - but what about writing? And what about correcting them when they write?

A previous poster hit the nail on the head when they earlier mentioned that we have gone from a system that punished the smallest of errors to one who is afraid to point out any problem at all.

Personally - I think this is a societal issue - I have long thought that amongst the racism in Ireland, we have been far too PC for our own good at times, but that's another argument completely.

What I'm about to say may offend and may also not be true but it seems that primary school children write a story, read it out, everyone claps and it's all about fostering the individuality of the student and their inquisitiveness for the subject - the junior cert syllabus is similar in its approach - but that is just not good enough!

Maybe I'm a perfectionist, but I could not allow students to go on making such basic mistakes, mistakes that will follow them around for life - every time they type up a CV, fill out an application form, send a birthday card.

This is not all about the exams for me - it's about life skills too.

#15 · 02-11-2011 02:32PM

Permabear wrote: »

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This really gets to the heart of the issue.

The system was designed in the 19th century, to deal with the issues of the 19th century.

Reforms of the system still leave us with a 19th century system.

There needs to be a complete rethinking of how education systems are structured.

Wrt the literacy issue, I believe the English curriculum is being redesigned at present. The current dog's dinner of a document looks like it will finally be thrown out.
Hopefully the new one will get back to basics and focus on the fundamentals.

BluntGuy · 02-11-2011 02:45PM

Whilst I don't teach English, I tutor mathematics and physics and speak with teachers on a regular basis, and much of what has been said here is corroborated by my personal experience.

It seems to me, that an element which would appear to be in play is a kind of compartmental mentality. It's as if paragraphs are only required for English, and most likely only in certain essays at that. That as there's no marks for it, you're free to leave apostrophes and punctuation at the door, and write either lumps of barely intelligible text or short, stringy incomplete sentences.

While I doubt any teacher would encourage this, I think more needs to be done to emphasize the use of English as a necessary tool for life, rather than just a subject to be passed. Indeed, a poster above me excellently summed this up:

This is not all about the exams for me - it's about life skills too.

Of course this applies to more than just English. Mathematics, the small amount of critical thinking you get in the sciences and philosophy and foreign languages are all fundamentally important life skills and should be emphasised as such, rather than treated as merely vehicles for racking up points.

rocketchick · 02-11-2011 02:55PM

Im the mother of a fourth class child, who was read to every night of her life, I do her homework with her, and she is helped constantly, but her level of spelling is shocking , we go through it and through it with her but she makes the same mistakes consistently , her Irish is at a level of Junior Infant.. she is not alone..her standard of education is much much lower than mine was at her age in the 80's...
you can't blame the parents in all cases...
even the relatively "smart " kids in her class aren't particulary clever...they just can't see beyond whats its front of them

its very worrying

I'm sorry, maybe too harsh but what the hell is going on in primary schools?

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