HELP Translation needed please!

saerynsun · 25-10-2011 8:05pm #1

Hi
I want to get a tattoo of a few sentences that mean something to me, in Irish. I used an on-line translator but I would't trust them. I'm not fluent in Irish and therefore wouldn't trust my own translation either. If anyone could help I'd really appreciate it!

I'll post it in English and what I got as the Irish translation;

In English:

If you never try,
You will never know,
What you are Worth.

As Gaeilge:

Riamh má tá tú iarracht,
Ní bheidh a fhios agat,
Cad tá tú ag fiú.

The translator placed riamh at the end instead of the beginning, but I thought that meant ever but when placed at the start means never, so I changed it? Is this a correct translation into Irish, does it still maintain its meaning?!

Krusader · 25-10-2011 8:36pm

Mura dhéanann tú iarracht riamh,
Ní bheidh a fhios agat riamh,
cén fiúntas atá ort

Wait for more confirmation on it

Insect Overlord · 25-10-2011 10:22pm

Crosáidí wrote: »

Mura dhéanann tú iarracht riamh,
Ní bheidh a fhios agat choíche,
cén fiúntas atá ort

One little change there, but I'd agree with the rest of it.

Krusader · 25-10-2011 10:25pm

Insect Overlord wrote: »

One little change there, but I'd agree with the rest of it.

yeah your right, well spotted

saerynsun · 26-10-2011 12:27am

Thank you Crosáidí and Insect Overlord for your translations! I really appreciate it

Insect Overlord · 26-10-2011 12:41am

saerynsun wrote: »

Thank you Crosáidí and Insect Overlord for your translations! I really appreciate it

It was no trouble at all.

Don't take the above translation as the final word yet though. Give it another few days in case someone offers a better suggestion.

mr chips · 26-10-2011 12:15pm

Interesting one. I think I'd be inclined to use "luach" rather than "fiúntas" - to me, it indicates the less tangible meaning, i.e. a person's worth or value in terms of moral fibre, rather than indicating something monetary. Having said that, I've heard someone described as "duine gan fiúntas" in terms of how crap they were at their job!

On reflection, I'm not sure how well this will work if done as a direct translation. Sayings and aphorisms in Irish don't often include "your/you" etc, but (when not involving metaphors built around rural life or religious faith!) tend to use a form that's less personal and more generalised. I'm thinking of the format used in examples such as "níl saoi gan locht", which literally means "no wise man is without fault". Sounds a bit clumsy - but in English the simple equivalent is "nobody's perfect". Similarly, "is binn béal ina thost" literally means "a silent mouth is sweet", but of course in English we say "silence is golden".

Sorry if that seems to be going off on a tangent, I guess I'm just trying to point out that what works well in one language mightn't be as poetic or profound when directly translated into another. I suppose it depends how "classic" you want this to be.

One option could be to condense it a little:
"Fríd croídhícheall, taibhrítear luach an duine."
The closest literal English translation I can give you for that is "Through great endeavour is a person's worth revealed." The word "croí" means "heart", and "dícheall" more or less means "best effort", so "croídhícheall" roughly means a great effort or endeavour that comes from the heart. "Taibhrítear" comes from the verb taibhrigh, meaning to manifest or show.

If you want to keep to a more literal translation of your original in English, then you could also try "Ní aithneoidh tú do luach gan triail". The nice thing about the word "triail" is that as well as meaning "to try", it can also mean "test" or indeed "trial". But there's something niggling at me about that and I'm just not 100% sure that it's can be used in this format. I'll have to think about it!

As the others have said, it'd be a good idea to wait and see what other responses you might get on here. Since this is a tattoo, it's worth giving it time to get the most consensus on the best version for what you want. I'd certainly welcome other opinions on my efforts!

An gal gréine · 26-10-2011 2:53pm

Another possibility:
Ní thuigfidh tú leath do luach gan cur chuige.

Mongarra · 26-10-2011 3:03pm

mr chips wrote: »

"Fríd croídhícheall, taibhrítear luach an duine."

Just wondering if the first word should be "Tríd' " as in "Trí do" or maybe just "Tríd" without the apostrophe. Not sure but, in any event, it's a nice short version mr chips.

An gal gréine · 26-10-2011 3:05pm

Fríd is the Northern version of tríd, same meaning.

saerynsun · 26-10-2011 8:25pm

mr chips wrote: »

Interesting one. I think I'd be inclined to use "luach" rather than "fiúntas" - to me, it indicates the less tangible meaning, i.e. a person's worth or value in terms of moral fibre, rather than indicating something monetary. Having said that, I've heard someone described as "duine gan fiúntas" in terms of how crap they were at their job!

On reflection, I'm not sure how well this will work if done as a direct translation. Sayings and aphorisms in Irish don't often include "your/you" etc, but (when not involving metaphors built around rural life or religious faith!) tend to use a form that's less personal and more generalised. I'm thinking of the format used in examples such as "níl saoi gan locht", which literally means "no wise man is without fault". Sounds a bit clumsy - but in English the simple equivalent is "nobody's perfect". Similarly, "is binn béal ina thost" literally means "a silent mouth is sweet", but of course in English we say "silence is golden".

Sorry if that seems to be going off on a tangent, I guess I'm just trying to point out that what works well in one language mightn't be as poetic or profound when directly translated into another. I suppose it depends how "classic" you want this to be.

One option could be to condense it a little:
"Fríd croídhícheall, taibhrítear luach an duine."
The closest literal English translation I can give you for that is "Through great endeavour is a person's worth revealed." The word "croí" means "heart", and "dícheall" more or less means "best effort", so "croídhícheall" roughly means a great effort or endeavour that comes from the heart. "Taibhrítear" comes from the verb taibhrigh, meaning to manifest or show.

If you want to keep to a more literal translation of your original in English, then you could also try "Ní aithneoidh tú do luach gan triail". The nice thing about the word "triail" is that as well as meaning "to try", it can also mean "test" or indeed "trial". But there's something niggling at me about that and I'm just not 100% sure that it's can be used in this format. I'll have to think about it!

As the others have said, it'd be a good idea to wait and see what other responses you might get on here. Since this is a tattoo, it's worth giving it time to get the most consensus on the best version for what you want. I'd certainly welcome other opinions on my efforts!

Thank you for your reply, this is why I asked because I understand that a specific meaning can be lost when translating from one language directly into another. I really wanted to respect the meaning it has to mean but in Irish.

If I explain the meaning for me maybe I could get a more meaningful translation so to speak. I have a tendency to over think things, and not take a chance on things I want for fear that I won't be deserving or worthy, or that I will fail if I do try. I want to change this about myself and have started but it's a slow process and the meaning of this particular quote keeps me trying to better myself.

So by worth I mean, my significance, virtue or usefulness. So even the most relevant Irish saying would be welcomed.

I hope this in some way helps with your kind help and translations.

mr chips · 26-10-2011 9:57pm

Ah, that gives a bit more insight into your thinking. There's actually a saying, "Tapaidh an deis", which is almost a direct equivalent of Carpe Diem / Seize The Day. It might be worth starting with that. What do others think of putting that with the second half of my previous suggestion, e.g. "Tapaidh an deis agus taibhrigh do luach"?

Mongarra - yep, I'm a speaker of the Ulster dialect.;)

Krusader · 26-10-2011 11:08pm

Maybe

Tapaigh an deis agus léirigh do luach

mr chips · 26-10-2011 11:55pm

Ooh, ooh ... what about "Tapaigh an deis agus aimsigh do luach"? Aimsigh can mean to find, to determine, to hit the mark, to aim and to make an attempt at something. So it could be seize the day and "aimsigh" your worth. Would that encompass what you're looking for OP?

saerynsun · 27-10-2011 10:38am

mr chips wrote: »

Ooh, ooh ... what about "Tapaigh an deis agus aimsigh do luach"? Aimsigh can mean to find, to determine, to hit the mark, to aim and to make an attempt at something. So it could be seize the day and "aimsigh" your worth. Would that encompass what you're looking for OP?

I like that one, thank you so much for your help, and the fact that it's succinct is even better!

Thank you.

ardri12345 · 28-10-2011 7:09pm

hi all helping my daughter with her bun go barr and came accross this sentence-cad ata ag teastail uait?, now i think that uait means from you so is the sentence saying -what is it you want from you???? sorry for hi-jacking the thread

Insect Overlord · 28-10-2011 7:49pm

ardri12345 wrote: »

hi all helping my daughter with her bun go barr and came accross this sentence-cad ata ag teastail uait?, now i think that uait means from you so is the sentence saying -what is it you want from you???? sorry for hi-jacking the thread

"Cad atá ag teastáil uait?" = What do you want.

Literal translation: "What is it that's wanting from you"

ardri12345 · 28-10-2011 10:07pm

thank you ,and how do you say --*what do you want from me??* i am sure i have have a lot more questions to ask in the days an months ahead as my daughter is being home educated this year so i am trying to teach her with my very basic irish and am beginning to enjoy it.

deirdremf · 28-10-2011 11:05pm

ardri12345 wrote: »

thank you ,and how do you say --*what do you want from me??* i am sure i have have a lot more questions to ask in the days an months ahead as my daughter is being home educated this year so i am trying to teach her with my very basic irish and am beginning to enjoy it.

I'd change the structure slightly for that.
"Cad is mian leat uaim"
or
"Cad atá tú ag iarraidh uaim"

If you are teaching your daughter at home, how is your pronunciation?
I ask because a great many learners pronounce "cad" as though it was the English word "cod", forgetting that the "d" is like the "th" in "the" or "that" as opposed to Bertie Ahern's "de" and "dat".
Ditto, the "t" in "atá" and "tú" is like the "th" in "thin" or "think" rather than in "tin" or "tinkle"

Su Campu · 28-10-2011 11:55pm

deirdremf wrote: »

I'd change the structure slightly for that.
"Cad is mian leat uaim"
or
"Cad atá tú ag iarraidh uaim"

If you are teaching your daughter at home, how is your pronunciation?
I ask because a great many learners pronounce "cad" as though it was the English word "cod", forgetting that the "d" is like the "th" in "the" or "that" as opposed to Bertie Ahern's "de" and "dat".
Ditto, the "t" in "atá" and "tú" is like the "th" in "thin" or "think" rather than in "tin" or "tinkle"

I never heard that before? I knew there are hard and soft consonants, and I would have though that cad would be hard as it has a preceding a,as opposed to an e or i? Does it depend on dialect too? I'm no expert, though, and am just trying to refresh what little Irish I used to have.

ardri12345 · 29-10-2011 12:23am

my pronunciation is not great but we have the cd that goes with the bun go barr books and my daughters pronunciation is way better than mine,and yes i do say cad the same as cod,this might be a west cork way of saying it???

An gal gréine · 29-10-2011 11:27am

deirdremf wrote: »

If you are teaching your daughter at home, how is your pronunciation?
I ask because a great many learners pronounce "cad" as though it was the English word "cod", forgetting that the "d" is like the "th" in "the" or "that" as opposed to Bertie Ahern's "de" and "dat".
Ditto, the "t" in "atá" and "tú" is like the "th" in "thin" or "think" rather than in "tin" or "tinkle"

Deirdre, I'm wondering if this is ever taught?
I hear so many fluent Galltacht speakers who dont appear to know about it.

deirdremf · 29-10-2011 3:34pm

Su Campu wrote: »

I never heard that before? I knew there are hard and soft consonants, and I would have though that cad would be hard as it has a preceding a,as opposed to an e or i? Does it depend on dialect too? I'm no expert, though, and am just trying to refresh what little Irish I used to have.

The terminology for Irish is "broad" and "narrow" (leathan, caol), and the "t" and "d" I am talking about are broad.

ardri12345 wrote: »

my pronunciation is not great but we have the cd that goes with the bun go barr books and my daughters pronunciation is way better than mine,and yes i do say cad the same as cod,this might be a west cork way of saying it???

No, this is the same for all dialects. There is variation for "narrow" "t"s and "d"s, but the broad ones are much the same everywhere.
If you pronounce it as the English word "cod", you are using English pronunciation!

An gal gréine wrote: »

Deirdre, I'm wondering if this is ever taught?
I hear so many fluent Galltacht speakers who dont appear to know about it.

Rarely taught and even more rarely learned.
I even know a principal in a Gaelscoil who is incapable of pronouncing these sounds. She simply uses English pronunciation.

Other sounds people have particular difficulty with are "ch" and "gh".

People who will not or cannot pronounce broad "t" or "ch" are called "octaws", because you often hear them say "ock taw ..." instead of "ach tá ..."

Su Campu · 29-10-2011 6:52pm

Well I think it's typical that if such a rule exists then why were none of us (except you deirdre) ever taught it. Another sign that Irish is taught as a subject and not a language at school. My Foclóir Póca from An Roinn Oideachais makes no mention of this rule for a broad d or t at the end of a word.

I've learnt Irish all my life and also speak five other languages, but Irish is the one I've learnt the least! I was only told in 5th year that nouns in Irish are masculine or feminine! :rolleyes:

deirdremf · 30-10-2011 10:19pm

Su Campu wrote: »

Well I think it's typical that if such a rule exists then why were none of us (except you deirdre) ever taught it.

I wasn't taught this at school: a friend of mine at Irish college got sick of listening to me saying "taw mé" and screamed at me : "It's not TAW, it´s TÁ, like in the English word THAW". I was 14 at the time, and it was my introduction to the phonetics of Irish consonants.
Strangely enough, the vowels - long vs short - were (are?) taught at school, but not the consonants, broad/narrow/lenited (i.e. with a séimhiú: ch and gh/dh, particularly).

Another sign that Irish is taught as a subject and not a language at school. My Foclóir Póca from An Roinn Oideachais makes no mention of this rule for a broad d or t at the end of a word.

The rule isn't for broad d or t at the end of a word - it's broad d or t in any position in a word.
My version of An Foclóir Póca, the 2006 printing, on page xi, it says: "In the notation used in this dictionary broad consonants are left unmarked and the slender consonants are marked by placing /'/ after them."
In the preceding paragraph, it specifically mentions consonants in initial position (cad and cead), but from the above, you can see that the same is true of consonants in other positions, too.

I've learnt Irish all my life and also speak five other languages, but Irish is the one I've learnt the least! I was only told in 5th year that nouns in Irish are masculine or feminine! :rolleyes:

I have also learnt a couple of other languages, and special attention was always given to pronunciation in other languages; but in Irish it is generally the blind leading the blind - or the deaf leading the ignorant, maybe.

Enkidu · 30-10-2011 10:52pm

deirdremf wrote: »

Ditto, the "t" in "atá" and "tú" is like the "th" in "thin" or "think" rather than in "tin" or "tinkle"

Tell me if I'm just being an anal linguist, but the broad t in Irish is a voiceless dental plosive, where as the th in English is a voicless dental frictive, so they are different sounds. (Although closer to eachother than the t in tin) The English th sound hasn't been in Irish since the 13th century.

Unless you mean the way people in southern Ireland pronounce English th, then yes they are identical.

Su Campu · 30-10-2011 11:02pm

Yes, the fact that the l in "leabhar" should be pronounced more like the "ll" in Spanish or the "lh" in Portuguese is something that will never be explained to anyone learning Irish in school. We learn Irish too slowly and over too much time, with too many different teachers. In the end we learn feic ál!

Enkidu · 30-10-2011 11:08pm

Su Campu wrote: »

Yes, the fact that the l in "leabhar" should be pronounced more like the "ll" in Spanish or the "lh" in Portuguese is something that will never be explained to anyone learning Irish in school. We learn Irish too slowly and over too much time, with too many different teachers. In the end we learn feic ál!

Usually for most letters one of the versions (broad/slender) is in English, but the other isn't. Although for some neither are, like r, and others both are, like s.

deirdremf · 31-10-2011 4:19pm

Enkidu wrote: »

Tell me if I'm just being an anal linguist, but the broad t in Irish is a voiceless dental plosive, where as the th in English is a voicless dental frictive, so they are different sounds. (Although closer to eachother than the t in tin) The English th sound hasn't been in Irish since the 13th century.

Unless you mean the way people in southern Ireland pronounce English th, then yes they are identical.

Yes, you're being anal, or worse!!!
I'm trying to explain things to people in a way they might understand. I assume I am communicating with an Irish person (although I accept that I may be wrong), and am trying to use knowledge held in common.
So yes, I mean th as used by many people in Connaught, Leinster and Munster - but not all of them as many people, particularly in Dublin and Cork do not distinguish between th and t, saying "ting" for "thing", etc.

deirdremf · 31-10-2011 4:23pm

Su Campu wrote: »

Yes, the fact that the l in "leabhar" should be pronounced more like the "ll" in Spanish or the "lh" in Portuguese is something that will never be explained to anyone learning Irish in school. We learn Irish too slowly and over too much time, with too many different teachers. In the end we learn feic ál!

But not so pronounced in Munster, or by speakers influenced by Munster Irish.
i.e. most learners outside of Ulster.

An gal gréine · 31-10-2011 4:46pm

Enkidu wrote: »

Tell me if I'm just being an anal linguist, but the broad t in Irish is a voiceless dental plosive, where as the th in English is a voicless dental frictive, so they are different sounds. (Although closer to eachother than the t in tin) The English th sound hasn't been in Irish since the 13th century.

Unless you mean the way people in southern Ireland pronounce English th, then yes they are identical.

In an English "th" your tongue should come through your teeth.
In the Gaelic "t" and "d" we are talking about the tongue should hit the back of your teeth. That's how it works for me anyway.

HELP Translation needed please!

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