Should there be a cap on social welfare payments?

Greaney · 20-10-2011 02:39PM

I'm a lone parent who was in receipt of social welfare for some years, I was very grateful for it and aware that when it wasn't there girls like me ended up in the Magdalene laundries. I was very grateful that the department relaxed the laws on how much a lone parent could work because it meant I was able to work (freelance), pay some tax back, and I'm now no longer on social welfare and yes, I still pay tax.

I always thought, however, that childrens allowance was pretty huge and that perhaps generous tax relief for the parents/guardians of children, per child, would be wiser. Then those who earn can afford their children and those who don't earn would not be tempted have more as an income stream by claiming more benifits (not unheard of).

60k is the average wage in this country. Taking into account that some families genuinely fall on hard times and may have disability and special needs, I think the poster who suggested the cap at the average (or perhaps just below average) was fairly on the ball. It's prudent to cap it near an average wage, and mercyfull to assist those in genuine need.

fliball123 · 20-10-2011 03:40PM

liammur wrote: »

That's why most wouldn't rate fliball123's analysis.

He is talking about those on the dole ... I have been talking about cuts to the PS...So you think it prudent to tax working people who are coming into the poverty trap ..Like this poor person? I have sympathy for all but it yet still boils down to simple maths 3 into 5 doesnt work ... We are borrowing too much we all have sad stories but sad stories do not pay the bills

El Weirdo · 20-10-2011 05:59PM

Greaney wrote: »

60k is the average wage in this country.

Are you sure? I was under the impression it was in or around the 35k mark.

Godge · 20-10-2011 06:20PM

harr wrote: »

Hi
well my situation is that i am on carers allowance,i get 170 euro a week my wife works full time,we have 2 cars, which we need because our young lad has so many hospital appointments i need a car and my wife needs to get to work so she needs a car.
My wife's wages cover the cost of her car and the mortgage every month so that leaves my 170 to cover the cost of my car all bills and all food shopping for the week,twice last month we had to go without a proper dinner so the kids could have a good dinner and twice last month i ran out of fuel for the car and had to borrow money so i could get the child to his appointments.
If we ask the social for help they refuse because my wife has a full time job so we don't qualify for any extra help.Would i like to work dame right i would, i had been working since i was 15 and was never out of work till the young lad was born.So when people start labelling everybody on social payments as lazy god for nothing it pisses me off,have a child with special needs is a full time job 24 hours a day so i dont get much of a chance to be lazy and sit on my hole all day.
The worst thing is i live be side a unmarried mother,who gets her rent paid,dole and money from the childs father,now she sits on her hole all day drives a decent car and gets a holiday every year and is still able to go out every weekend.
So folks before you label all of us on social payments good for nothings think about us that are barely able to survive from week to week.
I have had my payments cut 3 times in the last 3 years and another cut would probable send us under.

I think of the couple near me who have two kids finishing second-level education. They both work long tiring jobs, they are just about keeping one car on the road. I noticed they have just taken up cycling, probably preparing for the next few years when they will have to sell the car to fund third-level education for their kids.

No matter your situation, these days two cars are a luxury.

harr · 20-10-2011 09:30PM

Godge wrote: »

harr wrote: »

Hi
well my situation is that i am on carers allowance,i get 170 euro a week my wife works full time,we have 2 cars, which we need because our young lad has so many hospital appointments i need a car and my wife needs to get to work so she needs a car.
My wife's wages cover the cost of her car and the mortgage every month so that leaves my 170 to cover the cost of my car all bills and all food shopping for the week,twice last month we had to go without a proper dinner so the kids could have a good dinner and twice last month i ran out of fuel for the car and had to borrow money so i could get the child to his appointments.
If we ask the social for help they refuse because my wife has a full time job so we don't qualify for any extra help.Would i like to work dame right i would, i had been working since i was 15 and was never out of work till the young lad was born.So when people start labelling everybody on social payments as lazy god for nothing it pisses me off,have a child with special needs is a full time job 24 hours a day so i dont get much of a chance to be lazy and sit on my hole all day.
The worst thing is i live be side a unmarried mother,who gets her rent paid,dole and money from the childs father,now she sits on her hole all day drives a decent car and gets a holiday every year and is still able to go out every weekend.
So folks before you label all of us on social payments good for nothings think about us that are barely able to survive from week to week.
I have had my payments cut 3 times in the last 3 years and another cut would probable send us under.

I think of the couple near me who have two kids finishing second-level education. They both work long tiring jobs, they are just about keeping one car on the road. I noticed they have just taken up cycling, probably preparing for the next few years when they will have to sell the car to fund third-level education for their kids.

No matter your situation, these days two cars are a luxury.

I wish we did not need two cars but we do, I can't really stick the young lad on the back of a bike and head up to our lady's, and my wife works 35 miles away from home. So we have no option, it's not a luxury to us its a necessity, i would get rid of both cars if I could.

Greaney · 20-10-2011 10:06PM

El Weirdo wrote: »

Are you sure? I was under the impression it was in or around the 35k mark.

Oops, you I've just looked up some an article and they fall between the two!!:o Okay, sorry, the average 'household income' is between 35-60k depending whether the 'head of the household' is employed or not. Unemployed, it says 35k, and employed it's 60k, but I totally take your point, house hold income and wage are not the same thing.

Geuze · 21-10-2011 10:43AM

Here is household income data from the CSO's SILC

Gross household income = 56,522

Disposable, after paying tax and receiving transfers = 45,959

Much more here:

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/silc/2009/silc_2009.pdf

NB: figures are per household.

The disp income figure per person (equivalised) is 23,326.

waffleman · 21-10-2011 11:40AM

harr wrote: »

Hi
well my situation is that i am on carers allowance,i get 170 euro a week my wife works full time,we have 2 cars, which we need because our young lad has so many hospital appointments i need a car and my wife needs to get to work so she needs a car.
My wife's wages cover the cost of her car and the mortgage every month so that leaves my 170 to cover the cost of my car all bills and all food shopping for the week,twice last month we had to go without a proper dinner so the kids could have a good dinner and twice last month i ran out of fuel for the car and had to borrow money so i could get the child to his appointments.
If we ask the social for help they refuse because my wife has a full time job so we don't qualify for any extra help.Would i like to work dame right i would, i had been working since i was 15 and was never out of work till the young lad was born.So when people start labelling everybody on social payments as lazy god for nothing it pisses me off,have a child with special needs is a full time job 24 hours a day so i dont get much of a chance to be lazy and sit on my hole all day.
The worst thing is i live be side a unmarried mother,who gets her rent paid,dole and money from the childs father,now she sits on her hole all day drives a decent car and gets a holiday every year and is still able to go out every weekend.
So folks before you label all of us on social payments good for nothings think about us that are barely able to survive from week to week.
I have had my payments cut 3 times in the last 3 years and another cut would probable send us under.

Become 'estranged' in the eyes of the government and rent a room a few doors away - you'll collect a whole raft of other benefits on top of your carers allowance. People will say it's a crooked thing to do but it's the crooked state that's put a lot of people in this situation so i'm not surprised when i see people doing this. You need to feed your family at the end of the day

Sudsy86 · 21-10-2011 12:32PM

Geuze wrote: »

Here is household income data from the CSO's SILC

Gross household income = 56,522

Disposable, after paying tax and receiving transfers = 45,959

Much more here:

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/silc/2009/silc_2009.pdf

NB: figures are per household.

The disp income figure per person (equivalised) is 23,326.

I cant access the link in work so I appologise if this is in the Link

Are these figured in relation to households where there are 2 or more ppl in perminent employement?

Secondly the document stats this was in 2009, would you say that this are accurate concidering cuts that have been made since 2009 and the introcution of the USC?

Geuze · 21-10-2011 02:24PM

Data is for all households, based on survey.

Yes, data is for 2009, so gross incomes have likely fallen since than, and disp income fallen faster.

In 2009, average gross household income was €56,522, a decrease of almost 7% from 2008.

Average net disposable household income was €45,959 in 2009, a decrease of more than 6% from
€49,043 in 2008.

Average annual equivalised disposable income decreased by 4.3% in 2009, falling from €24,380 in
2008 to €23,326 in 2009.

Geuze · 21-10-2011 02:27PM

2006 2007 2008 2009
Annual average income

Gross household income (per household) 55,075 59,820 60,581 56,522

Disposable household income (per household) 43,646 47,988 49,043 45,959

Equivalised disposable income (per individual) 21,229 23,610 24,380 23,326

At risk of poverty threshold (60% of median income) 10,566 11,890 12,455 12,064

Sudsy86 · 21-10-2011 04:01PM

Geuze wrote: »

Data is for all households, based on survey.

Yes, data is for 2009, so gross incomes have likely fallen since than, and disp income fallen faster.

In 2009, average gross household income was €56,522, a decrease of almost 7% from 2008.

Average net disposable household income was €45,959 in 2009, a decrease of more than 6% from
€49,043 in 2008.

Average annual equivalised disposable income decreased by 4.3% in 2009, falling from €24,380 in
2008 to €23,326 in 2009.

Thanks, the second post made thinks alot clearer for me

Reason I asked was, we are lucky as we have 2 earners in the house but with both our incomes we are less than the average for 2009 and we both have fairly secure jobs...

Just goes to show that even for the minority who are lucky enough to be in steady jobs the drop in income due to taxation is quite severe...I have never had a comparison to the extent of above to work with (from lack of research on my own part) and compare to my own salary...

Its amazing to think that this is the value for that period as I am the only person in my Immediate family earning 30K+ before tax and at that i'm earning nearly 10k more than my partner per annum...

I can genuinly say that we where earning far less than the average in 2009 but have been lucky to date working in the private sector...

Thanks again for clarifying...

Should there be a cap on social welfare payments?

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