Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 19-10-2011 05:28PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Munster A:
S Scanlon; L O'Dea, W Chambers, T Gleeson, S Zebo; S Deasy, T O'Leary; M Horan, D Varley, BJ Botha; I Nagle, D Foley; D O'Callaghan, T O'Donnell, J Coughlan capt.

Replacements: D Kilcoyne, D Fogarty, J Ryan, P Donnellan, B O'Hara, D Williams, D Cusack, JJ Hanrahan.

Very strong side, not far off a Pro12 lineup there.

I don't know how to feel about the lineup really. Its great to see some youth being introduced but, there is too much experience there that it souring what could be an exciting lineup.

I can understand the frontrow needing gametime but, I would still liked to see some of the younger props get a runout. Similarily with Coughlan, he is coming back from injury but, Butler needs gametime.

I really can't see the reasoning behind starting Gleeson and Deasy; neither will ever make it above decent Pro12 players so why not give the gametime to Cusack or Hanrahan? Maybe Hanrahan is too young and needs to be introduced slowly but, Cusack needs a chance to prove himself at 10 without someone holding his hand.

All eyes will be on Chambers. He is nearly a complete unknown; a decent rating in the high 70s in Rugby Challenge is about all I know :P. Hopefully he'll be the next Tipoki/Nacewa.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 19-10-2011 06:04PM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I don't know how to feel about the lineup really. Its great to see some youth being introduced but, there is too much experience there that it souring what could be an exciting lineup.

I can understand the frontrow needing gametime but, I would still liked to see some of the younger props get a runout. Similarily with Coughlan, he is coming back from injury but, Butler needs gametime.

I really can't see the reasoning behind starting Gleeson and Deasy; neither will ever make it above decent Pro12 players so why not give the gametime to Cusack or Hanrahan? Maybe Hanrahan is too young and needs to be introduced slowly but, Cusack needs a chance to prove himself at 10 without someone holding his hand.

All eyes will be on Chambers. He is nearly a complete unknown; a decent rating in the high 70s in Rugby Challenge is about all I know :P. Hopefully he'll be the next Tipoki/Nacewa.

Coghlan will be playing the HEC and after injury needs the gametime imo so I agree with that decision.

Is Cusack fully fit Deasy was on the bench ahead of him all season due to Cusack's injury. If he is fit fair enough but I don't think he is.

If Chambers is the next Nacewa hopefully he will take Borlase's spot as Munster's project player

PhatPiggins · 19-10-2011 07:11PM

SomeFool wrote: »

Chambers is only there for 3 months afaik. There is a possability we could finish the season with Keatley at 12 and Barnes at 13. I do agree with you on the NIQ issue though. I think it should be reduced to 4 players - 2 backs and 2 forwards, with one of them being a project player.

I hate the entire notion of the 'project player' you're either from country or your not. Being essentially paid to paid for a country is taking the mick.

I've no issue with guy live Avua (spelling) for Leinster who comes over to make a living in Ireland, gains residency and can now play for Ireland if he proves good enough. Same thing you see with the odd islander playing for NZ after moving over as a kid, again no problem.

This whole thing off attracting a professional player to Ireland to essentially backdoor his way into the international setup completely cheapens the jersey.

[Jackass] · 19-10-2011 07:21PM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I don't know how to feel about the lineup really. Its great to see some youth being introduced but, there is too much experience there that it souring what could be an exciting lineup.

Could be a very wise move though, mixing first teamers with players coming through, and see who looks the part in that kind of team.

Plenty of developing talent there though.

wixfjord · 19-10-2011 07:27PM

PhatPiggins wrote: »

I hate the entire notion of the 'project player' you're either from country or your not. Being essentially paid to paid for a country is taking the mick.

I've no issue with guy live Avua (spelling) for Leinster who comes over to make a living in Ireland, gains residency and can now play for Ireland if he proves good enough. Same thing you see with the odd islander playing for NZ after moving over as a kid, again no problem.

This whole thing off attracting a professional player to Ireland to essentially backdoor his way into the international setup completely cheapens the jersey.

Not the thread for it, but the point has to be made, that if other countries are doing it, why should we be left behind?

CIARAN_BOYLE · 19-10-2011 07:32PM

[Jackass] wrote: »

Could be a very wise move though, mixing first teamers with players coming through, and see who looks the part in that kind of team.

Plenty of developing talent there though.

I like a mix but it should be mixed units not three experienced frontrowers and two young locks.

Sean Henry at Hooker and Billy Holland partnering Nagle would probably be a better mix imo

Amazotheamazing · 19-10-2011 07:40PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Coghlan will be playing the HEC and after injury needs the gametime imo so I agree with that decision.

Is Cusack fully fit Deasy was on the bench ahead of him all season due to Cusack's injury. If he is fit fair enough but I don't think he is.

If Chambers is the next Nacewa hopefully he will take Borlase's spot as Munster's project player

Cusack has been playing for Garryowen for the last month, he's fit alright.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 19-10-2011 07:42PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Cusack has been playing for Garryowen for the last month, he's fit alright.

My mistake then there was a report a few weeks ago that he was injured

Amazotheamazing · 19-10-2011 07:53PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

My mistake then there was a report a few weeks ago that he was injured

He was injured but he's been back a good while now. Hate writing off players but can't see Deasy or Gleeson making it, nor tbh, will Cusack most likely.

Hope O'Hara comes on.

PhatPiggins · 19-10-2011 08:12PM

wixfjord wrote: »

Not the thread for it, but the point has to be made, that if other countries are doing it, why should we be left behind?

Name 3 examples in recent history where its made a national team stronger?

I don't mean second and third tier nations importing players in positions that they have a deficit in. I think the likes of Ireland/England/France have a big enough playing pool to fill all positions internally without resorting to brining in mercenaries.

Amazotheamazing · 19-10-2011 08:28PM

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Name 3 examples in recent history where its made a national team stronger?

I don't mean second and third tier nations importing players in positions that they have a deficit in. I think the likes of Ireland/England/France have a big enough playing pool to fill all positions internally without resorting to brining in mercenaries.

Quade Cooper, David Pocock, Genia and add in Johnny O'Connor too.

Risteard · 19-10-2011 08:33PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Quade Cooper, David Pocock, Genia and add in Johnny O'Connor too.

Pretty sure the first three you mentioned move to Australia as kids/early teens. Big difference to bringing over an established professional to play for another country.

Amazotheamazing · 19-10-2011 08:37PM

Risteard wrote: »

Pretty sure the first three you mentioned move to Australia as kids/early teens. Big difference to bringing over an established professional to play for another country.

Just showing how vague it is, are they less Australian (say) than a guy who grows in England to Australian parents? We have no problem saying guys like Touhy or Court are Irish.

Risteard · 19-10-2011 08:41PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Just showing how vague it is, are they less Australian (say) than a guy who grows in England to Australian parents? We have no problem saying guys like Touhy or Court are Irish.

But those guys still have something that ties them to Ireland, tenuous as it may be in some cases. For example, my preference would be to change the rule to parent from the country as opposed to grandparent.

I get what your saying, but I still don't like the idea of an active policy of trying to bring in players ahead of guys that have grown up in Ireland/come through the Irish system, to play them for the Irish team. It defeats the purpose of International rugby.

Amazotheamazing · 19-10-2011 08:44PM

Risteard wrote: »

But those guys still have something that ties them to Ireland, tenuous as it may be in some cases. For example, my preference would be to change the rule to parent from the country as opposed to grandparent.

I get what your saying, but I still don't like the idea of an active policy of trying to bring in players ahead of guys that have grown up in Ireland/come through the Irish system, to play them for the Irish team. It defeats the purpose of International rugby.

I agree, but why should one guy, Court, be more feted than a guy who needs to spend time here to play for Ireland?

Risteard · 19-10-2011 08:52PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I agree, but why should one guy, Court, be more feted than a guy who needs to spend time here to play for Ireland?

There is no reason frankly. Tbh, if someone like Court popped up tomorrow who found he had an Irish granny and came up was picked, I wouldn't be mad about it, if I'm honest. But you could end up in a situation with Waldrom where he found out he had an English granny a few months ago and was in the frame for a WC spot for England immediately, pushing out an English player Narraway who had captained the Saxons I think. That's pretty ridiculous IMO.

It's a tricky subject to handle, especially with regard to players with grandparents as some may feel varying degrees of connection to Ireland, or in Waldrom's case, England.

But the idea of project player contracts annoys me no end as there really isn't a grey area. They're from another country and have only to stay three years and can change teams. It's not long enough IMO.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 19-10-2011 08:54PM

There's a pretty easy fix tbh. If you eligible for an Irish or Northern Irish passport, you should be allowed play for the country.

I don't care if other countries are doing it and neglecting to pick players like Strauss would make our team less competitive. I support Ireland; a team of Irish players. I do not support a team that consists of the best Irish-qualified professionals, an Irish select XV per se.

Amazotheamazing · 19-10-2011 09:20PM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

There's a pretty easy fix tbh. If you eligible for an Irish or Northern Irish passport, you should be allowed play for the country.

I don't care if other countries are doing it and neglecting to pick players like Strauss would make our team less competitive. I support Ireland; a team of Irish players. I do not support a team that consists of the best Irish-qualified professionals, an Irish select XV per se.

What about someone like Warwick, who marries an Irish girl, has an Irish kid, lives here for the best part of a decade etc.

Monty Burnz · 19-10-2011 09:26PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

What about someone like Warwick, who marries an Irish girl, has an Irish kid, lives here for the best part of a decade etc.

...and then boots off to France...

phog · 19-10-2011 09:44PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

...and then boots off to France...

I hope that's not a dig at him, I think most people that follow rugby knows full well why he "booted off to France".

I'm sure if he could have played for Ireland he'd still be playing with an Irish Province.

profitius · 19-10-2011 09:48PM

wixfjord wrote: »

Not the thread for it, but the point has to be made, that if other countries are doing it, why should we be left behind?

I think its great that all the Irish players are from Ireland or at least have Irish blood. It represents Irish people.

English people are complaining now that theres too many mercenaries in their squad. They are not proud Englishmen and will certainly not give their all for the jersey.

Amazotheamazing · 19-10-2011 09:50PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

...and then boots off to France...

His daughter has CF (afaik), when Munster weren't allowed give him a deal it made sense for him to move to civilised country that actually gives proper care to CF patients.

SomeFool · 19-10-2011 10:37PM

PhatPiggins wrote: »

I hate the entire notion of the 'project player' you're either from country or your not. Being essentially paid to paid for a country is taking the mick.

I've no issue with guy live Avua (spelling) for Leinster who comes over to make a living in Ireland, gains residency and can now play for Ireland if he proves good enough. Same thing you see with the odd islander playing for NZ after moving over as a kid, again no problem.

This whole thing off attracting a professional player to Ireland to essentially backdoor his way into the international setup completely cheapens the jersey.

I agree to a point but I'd prefer if the provinces are going to invest in a player who has no future somewhere else that the national side should reap some reward too if it's possible.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

What about someone like Warwick, who marries an Irish girl, has an Irish kid, lives here for the best part of a decade etc.

Capped by the Aussies, like Mafi was capped by the kiwis, of no benifit to the Irish team however well (or poor) they played for Munster or would like to repesent us.

Amazotheamazing · 19-10-2011 11:01PM

SomeFool wrote: »

Capped by the Aussies, like Mafi was capped by the kiwis, of no benifit to the Irish team however well (or poor) they played for Munster or would like to repesent us.

Why is that any more important than building a life in a new country?

SomeFool · 19-10-2011 11:13PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Why is that any more important than building a life in a new country?

Nothing against any fella wanting a new life but I personally feel that unless a NIQ is a marquee player - Howlett, Nacewa etc, they should at least have the potential to be available to the national side.

PhatPiggins · 19-10-2011 11:20PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Why is that any more important than building a life in a new country?

Are you deliberately trying to blur the lines between the project player/mercenary category and the emigrated/parental ties category?

Amazotheamazing · 19-10-2011 11:23PM

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Are you deliberately trying to blur the lines between the project player/mercenary category and the emigrated/parental ties category?

I think the current situation is a joke.

PhatPiggins · 19-10-2011 11:28PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I think the current situation is a joke.

I agree whole heartedly

Fireball07 · 20-10-2011 01:10PM

SomeFool wrote: »

Nothing against any fella wanting a new life but I personally feel that unless a NIQ is a marquee player - Howlett, Nacewa etc, they should at least have the potential to be available to the national side.

Warwick was very good for Munster. For what he offered and the role he was required to play, I don't think there were many people better than him. He was out-half cover and a versatile back....a marquee player wouldn't have been content playing 2nd fiddle to O'Gara.

SomeFool · 20-10-2011 01:32PM

Fireball07 wrote: »

Warwick was very good for Munster. For what he offered and the role he was required to play, I don't think there were many people better than him. He was out-half cover and a versatile back....a marquee player wouldn't have been content playing 2nd fiddle to O'Gara.

Then why not chase Staunton to come home? I think there are plenty Irish players capable of filling these kind of roles. It's the lazy way out in some ways. Better player movement between the provinces might help too.

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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