Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

thomond2006 · 18-10-2011 12:00PM

word on MFs is Botha got off.

Amazotheamazing · 18-10-2011 12:32PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

I think if Botha gets banned for a significant period, we should keep Hayes on.

Take the Heineken Cup games for example, would you want a academy/sub academy player coming on for an early injury and have to face Tonga'uiha or Mujati for 70 minutes? Also Archer hasn't looked great this season, looked how the scrum situation turned against Ospreys when Botha replaced him.

I think we should try youngsters against Aironi, who have good scrummagers themselves. Cotter or John Ryan at tighthead maybe?

Every young prop gets done over, there's no shame in it as long as they can learn from it. Archer has to start the next day, imo. I have my doubts Archer will ever be good enough but we'll only find out by giving him games.

Risteard · 18-10-2011 01:26PM

Disappointed Hayes has been signed on again. You could make a case if he was scrummaging well, but realistically at HC level it's as likely he'd do as bad as anyone else at this stage IMO. Are we ever going to bite the bullet and start developing props?

budhabob · 18-10-2011 01:33PM

Risteard wrote: »

Disappointed Hayes has been signed on again. You could make a case if he was scrummaging well, but realistically at HC level it's as likely he'd do as bad as anyone else at this stage IMO. Are we ever going to bite the bullet and start developing props?

It depends how he is used. If he is kept on the cards as back up in case of an emergency then I think its a shrewd move. Saying that, I hope he is kept in the background and not used unless some crisis occurs.

Also, confirmed that Botha got off.
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/9538.php

Risteard · 18-10-2011 01:48PM

budhabob wrote: »

It depends how he is used. If he is kept on the cards as back up in case of an emergency then I think its a shrewd move. Saying that, I hope he is kept in the background and not used unless some crisis occurs.

Also, confirmed that Botha got off.
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/9538.php

I can see that argument. I would really hope that Archer is ahead if him, though tbf, I think that has been the case so far this season,so I don't see why it should change. But I would like to see some academy props get some sort of gametime, because we'll need them next year if either of Botha/Archer get injured.

profitius · 18-10-2011 01:52PM

Well, if people want to see why we're very slow at developing players in this country look no further than Munster signing John Hayes on. There are academy props, Ulster Banks league props and a few props on development contracts that could be called upon. Hayes has been getting destroyed in the scrums for 2 years now. The man is past it and should be left retire.

No wonder we're so badly off with props in this country. Irish props have to be given a chance. Its a tough position and players need time there to toughen up and learn the tricks of the trade. They're not given a chance and then when a position comes up the chequebook comes out and signs up foreign props.

The worst thing of all is we have an abundance of people in the country who are the perfect proping size! Only tall props or athletic props have been picked in the past few years but then we sign Wian Du Preez who is a good prop but very limited.

Only for Dean Richards taking a chance on Mike Ross (who was rejected by Munster) the national side would really be up the creek.

GerM · 18-10-2011 02:10PM

Alan Cotter must really not be rated by the coaching staff. He has looked decent when I've seen him but I don't think he has ever come into the equation for the senior side. At 26 there's only a certain amount of developing he has left to do and most of that will only come with top level experience. As Jerry Cronin and Simon Shawe have shown, the AIL can provide players capable of stepping up to the plate and not looking out of place.

thomond2006 · 18-10-2011 04:45PM

du Preez, Sherry, Botha, DOC, POC, Ryan, POM, Coughlan;
Murray, ROG, Earls, Mafi, Chambers/Barnes, Howlett, Murphy

Bench: Varley, Horan, Archer, Nagle, Leamy, Stringer, Keatley, Chambers/Barnes

with Bull, Micko, Ronan, O'Donnell, O'Leary, Hurley and Zebo to come in if required

Amazotheamazing · 18-10-2011 06:45PM

GerM wrote: »

Alan Cotter must really not be rated by the coaching staff. He has looked decent when I've seen him but I don't think he has ever come into the equation for the senior side. At 26 there's only a certain amount of developing he has left to do and most of that will only come with top level experience. As Jerry Cronin and Simon Shawe have shown, the AIL can provide players capable of stepping up to the plate and not looking out of place.

26 isn't that old for a prop. They could be working on his fitness or general skills. What I've seen of him he's a better scrummager than Archer.

Amazotheamazing · 18-10-2011 06:47PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

du Preez, Sherry, Botha, DOC, POC, Ryan, POM, Coughlan;
Murray, ROG, Earls, Mafi, Chambers/Barnes, Howlett, Murphy

Bench: Varley, Horan, Archer, Nagle, Leamy, Stringer, Keatley, Chambers/Barnes

with Bull, Micko, Ronan, O'Donnell, O'Leary, Hurley and Zebo to come in if required

I'd play Chambers at 12 if he's anyway half decent there, Mafi is just too headless. I thought he was back to his best but he's gone back to his old ways. Would be tempted to start Leamy at 6 and give DOC a fright by playing Ryan in the second row.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 18-10-2011 07:00PM

I'd be tempted to give Keatley a run a run at 12 outside ROG he could be a very good 2nd 5/8s

thomond2006 · 18-10-2011 07:01PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I'd play Chambers at 12 if he's anyway half decent there, Mafi is just too headless. I thought he was back to his best but he's gone back to his old ways. Would be tempted to start Leamy at 6 and give DOC a fright by playing Ryan in the second row.

Well as usual we'll have a good idea of the 23 from the Leinster game.

Amazotheamazing · 18-10-2011 07:06PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Well as usual we'll have a good idea of the 23 from the Leinster game.

Not really, we've stupidly rested players for the Leinster away game in recent years.

In a lot of ways, I think McGahan doesn't or didn't fully grasp the importance of interpro games.

Amazotheamazing · 18-10-2011 07:08PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I'd be tempted to give Keatley a run a run at 12 outside ROG he could be a very good 2nd 5/8s

He could but he'll have to work on his tackling. I've seen some games where he's a great tackler so I know he can do it, but other games he just can't tackle at all. Keatley has all the physical attributes needed, and a fair few of the skills needed, but does he have the mindset to be a top player?

thomond2006 · 18-10-2011 07:14PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Not really, we've stupidly rested players for the Leinster away game in recent years.

In a lot of ways, I think McGahan doesn't or didn't fully grasp the importance of interpro games.

Really? I have to disagree there. McGahan has always played a close to strongest hand away to Leinster.

Munster (vs Leinster at Aviva, October 2010):
P Warwick; D Howlett, L Mafi (yc 45-55), S Tuitupou, J Murphy; R O'Gara, T O'Leary;
W du Preez (M Horan 64), D Varley, J Hayes; D O'Callaghan, D Ryan (M O'Driscoll 65), A Quinlan (D Wallace 55), D Leamy (capt), N Ronan.

Flannery, Buckley, O'Connell, Earls and Jones were all injured, Wallace was just back from injury. That was first choice that back then.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/8019.php

Munster (vs Leinster at RDS, October 2009):
K Earls; D Howlett, L Mafi (P Warwick 63), J de Villiers, D Hurley (I Dowling 67); R O'Gara (capt), T O'Leary (P Stringer 76);
M Horan, D Fogarty (J Flannery 58), J Hayes; D O'Callaghan, M O'Driscoll (P O'Connell 49 ); D Leamy, N Ronan (T Buckley 58), N Williams (D Wallace 49).

O'Connell and Wallace were coming off a Lions tour. Otherwise that's first choice IMO.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/6588.php

Amazotheamazing · 18-10-2011 07:19PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Really? I have to disagree there. McGahan has always played a close to strongest hand away to Leinster.

Munster (vs Leinster at Aviva, October 2010):
P Warwick; D Howlett, L Mafi (yc 45-55), S Tuitupou, J Murphy; R O'Gara, T O'Leary;
W du Preez (M Horan 64), D Varley, J Hayes; D O'Callaghan, D Ryan (M O'Driscoll 65), A Quinlan (D Wallace 55), D Leamy (capt), N Ronan.

Flannery, Buckley, O'Connell, Earls and Jones were all injured, Wallace was just back from injury. That was first choice that back then.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/8019.php

Munster (vs Leinster at RDS, October 2009):
K Earls; D Howlett, L Mafi (P Warwick 63), J de Villiers, D Hurley (I Dowling 67); R O'Gara (capt), T O'Leary (P Stringer 76);
M Horan, D Fogarty (J Flannery 58), J Hayes; D O'Callaghan, M O'Driscoll (P O'Connell 49 ); D Leamy, N Ronan (T Buckley 58), N Williams (D Wallace 49).

O'Connell and Wallace were coming off a Lions tour. Otherwise that's first choice IMO.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/6588.php

No team where Wallace is on the bench and Ronan starts has the right to call itself first choice. Keeping POC and Fla on the bench for that first game was utter madness too, imo, both needed gametime.

I really don't see how you can say a team with 3 Lions on the bench (Jules Rimet etc) is first choice.

GerM · 18-10-2011 07:23PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

26 isn't that old for a prop. They could be working on his fitness or general skills. What I've seen of him he's a better scrummager than Archer.

That's what I thought too. If he's a better scrummager, get him out there and give him some senior game time or at least A team appearances to improve his fitness. At the moment, he's only getting games in the AIL. He's not going to improve his fitness levels by playing at a slower, less intense level. I've only seen him a couple of times in the AIL but he's always been on top in the scrum, something that I can't say about the likes of Buckley or Archer in the AIL. There's not a lot to lose at this point.

Amazotheamazing · 18-10-2011 07:26PM

GerM wrote: »

That's what I thought too. If he's a better scrummager, get him out there and give him some senior game time or at least A team appearances to improve his fitness. At the moment, he's only getting games in the AIL. He's not going to improve his fitness levels by playing at a slower, less intense level. I've only seen him a couple of times in the AIL but he's always been on top in the scrum, something that I can't say about the likes of Buckley or Archer in the AIL. There's not a lot to lose at this point.

Thing as well is Young Munster's scrum isn't just good, it fairly much owns anyone it plays in the scrum.He's undoubtedly one of the best tightheads in the league. However, there's seemingly no end of useless props from Cork we've to work our way through first.

thomond2006 · 19-10-2011 12:40PM

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/9541.php

Munster A squad:
M Horan, BJ Botha, J Ryan, D Kilcoyne,
D Varley, D Fogarty,
I Nagle, P Donnellan, D Foley,
D O Callaghan, B O Hara, T O Donnell, J Coughlan,

T O Leary, D Williams,
S Deasy, D Cusack,
S Zebo, JJ Hanrahan, T Gleeson, W Chambers, L O Dea, S Scanlon

This will be a good run out for the players that need gametime like Botha, Varley, Nagle, Coughlan, O'Leary and Chambers.

Fishooks12 · 19-10-2011 12:45PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/9541.php

Munster A squad:
M Horan, BJ Botha, J Ryan, D Kilcoyne,
D Varley, D Fogarty,
I Nagle, P Donnellan, D Foley,
D O Callaghan, B O Hara, T O Donnell, J Coughlan,

T O Leary, D Williams,
S Deasy, D Cusack,
S Zebo, JJ Hanrahan, T Gleeson, W Chambers, L O Dea, S Scanlon

This will be a good run out for the players that need gametime like Botha, Varley, Nagle, Coughlan, O'Leary and Chambers.

No Paddy Butler? Serious A squad

SomeFool · 19-10-2011 12:52PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/9541.php

Munster A squad:
M Horan, BJ Botha, J Ryan, D Kilcoyne,
D Varley, D Fogarty,
I Nagle, P Donnellan, D Foley,
D O Callaghan, B O Hara, T O Donnell, J Coughlan,

T O Leary, D Williams,
S Deasy, D Cusack,
S Zebo, JJ Hanrahan, T Gleeson, W Chambers, L O Dea, S Scanlon

This will be a good run out for the players that need gametime like Botha, Varley, Nagle, Coughlan, O'Leary and Chambers.

TBH none of these lads (in bold) have any business in the A squad, I think it defeats the purpose of it. Fair enough if a player was coming back from a serious long term injury like Jones or Wally will be, but it's time Munster used the A squad to it's fullest potential rather than trotting out familar faces for a run.

Fishooks12 · 19-10-2011 12:54PM

SomeFool wrote: »

TBH none of these lads (in bold) have any business in the A squad, I think it defeats the purpose of it. Fair enough if a player was coming back from a serious long term injury like Jones or Wally will be, but it's time Munster used the A squad to it's fullest potential rather than trotting out familar faces for a run.

How? Most of those players are coming back from injury or can't get their places on the first team

I'm sure an element of the A squad is to try out new combinations too

SomeFool · 19-10-2011 01:04PM

Fishooks12 wrote: »

How? Most of those players are coming back from injury or can't get their places on the first team

I'm sure an element of the A squad is to try out new combinations too

They haven't been out for long to be fair. Having Varley and Fogarty as hookers? Seriously? I think there are too many senior players there to be a true A side.

Fishooks12 · 19-10-2011 01:06PM

SomeFool wrote: »

They haven't been out for long to be fair. Having Varley and Fogarty as hookers? Seriously? I think there are too many senior players there to be a true A side.

Varley's only back from a few weeks in NZ where he was a glorified tackle bag

He'll need a game like this to get him ready for next week

SomeFool · 19-10-2011 01:09PM

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Varley's only back from a few weeks in NZ where he was a glorified tackle bag

He'll need a game like this to get him ready for next week

Fair enough, but why not have Henry as back up then and give him a look in? Do you think Munster could do with cutting some of the mid tier players?

profitius · 19-10-2011 01:22PM

SomeFool wrote: »

Fair enough, but why not have Henry as back up then and give him a look in? Do you think Munster could do with cutting some of the mid tier players?

The likes of Gleeson has had long enough to show what he can't do. They should take a gamble on some Ulster bank league players. The squad is overflowing with quantity but lacking in quality.

Hyndsy85 · 19-10-2011 02:22PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Really? I have to disagree there. McGahan has always played a close to strongest hand away to Leinster.

Munster (vs Leinster at Aviva, October 2010):
P Warwick; D Howlett, L Mafi (yc 45-55), S Tuitupou, J Murphy; R O'Gara, T O'Leary;
W du Preez (M Horan 64), D Varley, J Hayes; D O'Callaghan, D Ryan (M O'Driscoll 65), A Quinlan (D Wallace 55), D Leamy (capt), N Ronan.

Flannery, Buckley, O'Connell, Earls and Jones were all injured, Wallace was just back from injury. That was first choice that back then.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/8019.php

Munster (vs Leinster at RDS, October 2009):
K Earls; D Howlett, L Mafi (P Warwick 63), J de Villiers, D Hurley (I Dowling 67); R O'Gara (capt), T O'Leary (P Stringer 76);
M Horan, D Fogarty (J Flannery 58), J Hayes; D O'Callaghan, M O'Driscoll (P O'Connell 49 ); D Leamy, N Ronan (T Buckley 58), N Williams (D Wallace 49).

O'Connell and Wallace were coming off a Lions tour. Otherwise that's first choice IMO.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/6588.php

Someone tell me im not the only one who is concerned that munster keep signing NIQ centres and are not developing irish centres. As can be seen above last years first choice was Mafi and Tuitupou. The year before that Mafi and J de Villiers. And while i havent checked im pretty sure the year before that it was Mafi and Tipoki.

Not to mention in years previous to that we had Gary Connolly and Trevor Halstead getting lots of games (maybe not so much Connolly). Also whenever an injury would occur Warwick was slotted into centre.

This year we signed another NIQ centre in Chambers.

SomeFool · 19-10-2011 02:38PM

Hyndsy85 wrote: »

Someone tell me im not the only one who is concerned that munster keep signing NIQ centres and are not developing irish centres.

This year we signed another NIQ centre in Chambers.

Chambers is only there for 3 months afaik. There is a possability we could finish the season with Keatley at 12 and Barnes at 13. I do agree with you on the NIQ issue though. I think it should be reduced to 4 players - 2 backs and 2 forwards, with one of them being a project player.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 19-10-2011 02:50PM

Hyndsy85 wrote: »

Someone tell me im not the only one who is concerned that munster keep signing NIQ centres and are not developing irish centres. As can be seen above last years first choice was Mafi and Tuitupou. The year before that Mafi and J de Villiers. And while i havent checked im pretty sure the year before that it was Mafi and Tipoki.

Not to mention in years previous to that we had Gary Connolly and Trevor Halstead getting lots of games (maybe not so much Connolly). Also whenever an injury would occur Warwick was slotted into centre.

This year we signed another NIQ centre in Chambers.

There are 3 other provinces who can be tasked with developing Irish Centres. All the provinces have their dearths of home-grown quality around the park, Munster's just appears to be in the centre (and at present, prop).

I would have no problem with Munster continuing to bring in NIQ centres. As long they sign a 2+ year contract, and that they will cover more than the one position - Some degree of versatility is needed to ensure that we can still produce players in their primary position, without weakening the team by benching the NIQ player every other game. It can't be ignored, that a good NIQ centre could work wonders to bring through young talent. Just look at Botha's contribution to proping in Ulster.

Anyway, centre is looking more promising than it has in a few years. Barnes looks like becoming a brilliant club player at 12/13, and Earls still appears to be looked at as the heir to the Irish 13 jersey. Then there is young JJ Hanrahan, who is a great prospect at 12/10. Keatley could end up playing 12 until ROG hangs up the boots too.

We would be much better suited to developing Irish props. Its a much greater weakness in the country and its ridiculous that we are using 3 of our allocated NIQ's at 1/3.

thomond2006 · 19-10-2011 05:01PM

Munster A:
S Scanlon; L O'Dea, W Chambers, T Gleeson, S Zebo; S Deasy, T O'Leary; M Horan, D Varley, BJ Botha; I Nagle, D Foley; D O'Callaghan, T O'Donnell, J Coughlan capt.

Replacements: D Kilcoyne, D Fogarty, J Ryan, P Donnellan, B O'Hara, D Williams, D Cusack, JJ Hanrahan.

Very strong side, not far off a Pro12 lineup there.

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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