Should there be a cap on social welfare payments?

SillyMcCarthy · 28-09-2011 09:27AM

My brothers sister in law was getting more per week in social welfare payments then I was earning when i was working. And I could only claim social welfare for one year after working for in excess of twenty! The system is most definately wrong. :mad:

fliball123 · 28-09-2011 09:33AM

CrystalLettuce wrote: »

But we didn't create the mess, so why should we pay?

Who are you what sector are you from...

The way I see it is there can be a lot of why should I pay questions

Why should I pay for the bankers/politicians/regulator/Developers for fceking us over to the tune of 50 billion

Why should I pay the Public sector triple ps (pay / pension / perks) when I am getting a degredated service year in year out. costing 100 billion thus far

Why should I pay for a spotty teen girl to have a baby after a drunken 1 night stand

Why should I pay for the 100s of late teens now eligiable to collect the dole after leaving school

Why am I paying for Bertie Ahearn

Why ???

There are a million why am I payiig questions ...but the brutal fact is that in some way shape or form ..wheather you were born here which means your parents got at the very least childrens allowance, free education etc...Or you arrived here and the state was good enough to accept you..So let the first person who has not benefited off the state or the tax payers in some form ask that "why should I pay " question???

I dont like the fact that I will have to pay more in tax this year but needs must..

Watch VB last night and Gurdiev (forgive the spelling)...during this recession the average man paying tax has gone from an effective tax rate (Income, USC, VAT and other taxes) of 46% to 59% ..The PS wage is still on average 54k a year and compared against to MNCs here their average is 50k..He also made the point that people argue saying that the average is not a good metric but he hit the nail on the head when he said that there are less people on over 200k then there on under 30k..Its the middle and upper sectors that need to be tackled..As for Dole..how much has that gone down??

The gov are yet again determined to kick the average working man by more taxes..slapping more tolls on the road and the expect to keep working people in this country...well message to Enda...Please wake up we are overburdened as tax payers and this set of people have an affordable tool at thier disposal and that is emigration...Sad but true I reckon if we get another rollicking this year I will be in Oz by next Xmas...

nkay1985 · 28-09-2011 10:02AM

I was at a family funeral recently and was talking to a couple of my cousins about smoking. One of them used to smoke and the other currently does. The one who does said she smokes about 40 a day. That's about €120 a week spent on cigarettes. This person is on social welfare. She's 26/27 and has never had a job. She is a single parent to one child.

I was incredulous! I couldn't come close to affording €120 a week on anything and I have a decent job. I can't imagine how someone out working hard for the minimum wage must feel when they see people like this.

As far as I'm concerned, she should never have been entitled to social welfare having never contributed, or certainly not a generous amount. A basic budget that's enough to live on, fair enough, but not the obscene amounts that are handed out in certain circumstances. Coupled with that, I think that those who have paid more in should get more out when they're unfortunate enough to end up out of work. It's awful to think of people who worked for 30 or 40 years ending up getting less than some people who have never worked a day in their life.

The system is too open to abuse at the moment. Something needs to be done.

Godge · 28-09-2011 10:57AM

fliball123 wrote: »

Wow Godge two posts I agree with you already..

You don't read my posts carefully enough. I am in favour of cutbacks but not across-the-board cuts.

Some public servants are still overpaid and should be cut, but some are correctly paid and should be left alone.
Some social welfare payments should be abolished, others should be cut by large or small amounts and some should be left alone.
Direct provision should replace transfer payments where possible.
Income tax rates should be kept the same or reduced.
Tax breaks including for pensions and property should be abolished.
CGT, CAT should be increased.
A property tax and welfare charges should be introduced.
The levy on pensions is a good idea as it taxes money that is largely outside of the domestic economy.

You would just cut everything across the board while I favour cuts/tax increases in some but not all areas. A scalpel rather than a sledge-hammer.

murphaph · 28-09-2011 12:05PM

Godge wrote: »

You don't read my posts carefully enough. I am in favour of cutbacks but not across-the-board cuts.

Some public servants are still overpaid and should be cut, but some are correctly paid and should be left alone.
Some social welfare payments should be abolished, others should be cut by large or small amounts and some should be left alone.
Direct provision should replace transfer payments where possible.
Income tax rates should be kept the same or reduced.
Tax breaks including for pensions and property should be abolished.
CGT, CAT should be increased.
A property tax and welfare charges should be introduced.
The levy on pensions is a good idea as it taxes money that is largely outside of the domestic economy.

You would just cut everything across the board while I favour cuts/tax increases in some but not all areas. A scalpel rather than a sledge-hammer.

Do you mind me asking, which of your proposed cuts/tax increases will affect you personally? I'm just curious.

Godge · 28-09-2011 12:46PM

murphaph wrote: »

Do you mind me asking, which of your proposed cuts/tax increases will affect you personally? I'm just curious.

- Property tax (I own a house)
- Water Charges (I own a house) meant to say water charges rather than welfare charges in my previous post
- Child benefit abolition (I have children)
- Selective Public service pay cut (I have a preserved pension from my employment in the public service, not the full service though, if pay is cut that future preserved pension is cut, depends on which grades are cut etc)
- Pension tax relief abolition (I pay into a pension fund now in my current employment)
- CAT (I expect to inherit at some time in the future, in which case I will be hit by this increase)
- CGT (Don't have investments at the moment that would be subject to CGT but I have in the past and hope to again)

If income tax decreases, that will encourage me to stay in work longer to pay all these other taxes, cuts. Otherwise at some point in the future (I am not quite at retirement age yet:() I would retire as soon as it became financially viable to do so.

not prepared to give any more personal information than that but I don't look at these things from a personal financial viewpoint.

AlekSmart · 28-09-2011 01:04PM

nkay1985 wrote: »

I

As far as I'm concerned, she should never have been entitled to social welfare having never contributed, or certainly not a generous amount. A basic budget that's enough to live on, fair enough, but not the obscene amounts that are handed out in certain circumstances. Coupled with that, I think that those who have paid more in should get more out when they're unfortunate enough to end up out of work. It's awful to think of people who worked for 30 or 40 years ending up getting less than some people who have never worked a day in their life.

The system is too open to abuse at the moment. Something needs to be done.

Nk1985,you highlight a somewhat disregarded element of the current Social Payments mess.

I continue to be puzzled at the numbers of persons,both native and foreign who are presenting with newly issued Free-Travel passes.

Whilst many immediately equate the Free-Travel pass with OAP's only,the reality is that we now have over 600,000 Free Travel Passes in circulation (not including spouse/companion entitlement) in a country with an adult population of some 3 million.

Additionally,we see with Rent Allowance,a similar situation whereby a broad church of recipients are taking up the scheme's benefits,many of whom are quite recently arrived,with no employment history and even less prospect of attaining one.

As Joan Burton belatedly appears to realize,it's not simply the level of basic Social Welfare that is excessive,but the byzantine nature of the supplementary payments and associated "discretionary" elements disbursed by the other statutory agencies...;)

nkay1985 · 28-09-2011 02:58PM

As I said, I wouldn't have someone starve, and it would be harsh on those leaving school now who are not academically inclined, but for the most part I agree with you.

You contribute to the state while you can and benefit from that when necessary. The problem is that no politician will ever introduce something so radical.

thebman · 28-09-2011 03:07PM

nkay1985 wrote: »

I was at a family funeral recently and was talking to a couple of my cousins about smoking. One of them used to smoke and the other currently does. The one who does said she smokes about 40 a day. That's about €120 a week spent on cigarettes. This person is on social welfare. She's 26/27 and has never had a job. She is a single parent to one child.

Most likely such a person is buying them on the black market (as that is the only way they could afford them) which just makes it worse TBH. At least if they were buying them in Irish shops, the state would get a lot of the money back in tax.

Degsy · 28-09-2011 05:13PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Sad but true I reckon if we get another rollicking this year I will be in Oz by next Xmas...

You'll be missed..dont forget to write.:rolleyes:

murphaph · 28-09-2011 06:37PM

Degsy wrote: »

You'll be missed..dont forget to write.:rolleyes:

Well if he or she is a taxpayer then he or she will be missed.

All the rolleyes in the world won't change the fact that we need more taxpayers and fewer social welfare recipients.

murphaph · 28-09-2011 06:39PM

thebman wrote: »

Most likely such a person is buying them on the black market (as that is the only way they could afford them) which just makes it worse TBH. At least if they were buying them in Irish shops, the state would get a lot of the money back in tax.

...and this same scrounger who buys their 40 fags a day tax free with taxpayers money will be treated for cancer courtesy of the same taxpayers. It's unreal tbh.

damino · 28-09-2011 06:46PM

Hi All,

New to boards. Social Welfare needs a big overhaul. Its unfair to label everybody on welfare as being on the piggy's back. I work and yes I'm annoyed when I found after watching Frontline on Monday that people on welfare would have to earn 40K + before it would be worthwhile for them to go off social welfare. A lot of people have lost their jobs and are entitled to welfare. But in the case a lot of persons who have partners or spouse who works prevents them from claiming welfare when they live together. Watching Frontline, Joan Byrne did acknowledge that people can get more that 12K a year in rent supplement. That is the first area that needs an overhaul.

fedor.2. · 28-09-2011 09:39PM

BANZAI_RUNNER wrote: »

Personally I think that the Dole in its current form is wrong , I think no money should be paid , they should be given 50kg bags of rice, 50kg bags of flour , powdered milk , etc , if they want pizza the they should get a job , I also think that before anyone gets any dole payments , all their tattoos and piercings should be counted, and checked regularly, and if any new ones turn up , then no more dole for them , I know people who are on the dole etc and get new tattoos almost on a monthly basis, it is true that in Ireland the dole is seen as a lifestyle , well if everyone else who work have to ' take the pain ' they i don't see why the people on the dole shouldn't

What a stupid post, counting tattoos and piercings, are you for real??? And you know people who get 12 tattoos a year, is it. Grow up, when you move out of your mams house you can talk

thebman · 28-09-2011 10:38PM

The easiest way to remove suspicion as to what people on welfare spend their money on is to issue the dole onto a prepaid credit card type system. If you got Visa involved (they would probably do it for the promotion alone), you could create some very discreet cards that won't be obvious from other such cards.

This would log purchases to a central government system.

murphaph · 28-09-2011 10:57PM

thebman wrote: »

The easiest way to remove suspicion as to what people on welfare spend their money on is to issue the dole onto a prepaid credit card type system. If you got Visa involved (they would probably do it for the promotion alone), you could create some very discreet cards that won't be obvious from other such cards.

This would log purchases to a central government system.

I don't think it would. If I go shopping in Tesco the supermarket doesn't forward my entire shopping list to Visa while verifying the transaction. They just forward some generic description like "Tesco Lucan xxxx" and the amount and pin etc. Visa don't really care what you bought and I doubt they'd be interested in modifying their database to allow it to be used as a government tracking tool (bad publicity I think).

The dole should simply be reduced to a level where buying luxuries like alcohol and tobacco is impossible without going hungry. It should just about cover the essentials needed to stay alive while a person seeks a new job, not a red cent more.

If it was at such a level we wouldn't need to concoct ways of tracking what people spent it on.

thebman · 29-09-2011 01:41AM

murphaph wrote: »

I don't think it would. If I go shopping in Tesco the supermarket doesn't forward my entire shopping list to Visa while verifying the transaction. They just forward some generic description like "Tesco Lucan xxxx" and the amount and pin etc. Visa don't really care what you bought and I doubt they'd be interested in modifying their database to allow it to be used as a government tracking tool (bad publicity I think).

The dole should simply be reduced to a level where buying luxuries like alcohol and tobacco is impossible without going hungry. It should just about cover the essentials needed to stay alive while a person seeks a new job, not a red cent more.

If it was at such a level we wouldn't need to concoct ways of tracking what people spent it on.

But Visa or debit payment is considered proof of purchase and the store can verify the transcations. Easily used for anyone who is thought to be abusing welfare.

Bannasidhe · 29-09-2011 01:53AM

thebman wrote: »

But Visa or debit payment is considered proof of purchase and the store can verify the transcations. Easily used for anyone who is thought to be abusing welfare.

Aldi and Lidl don't accept credit cards, neither do the farmers I buy my veg directly from.
To use a debit card there needs to be cash in the bank account.
Proof of purchase without an itemised list doesn't prevent alcohol etc being bought so do we employ people to go through thousands of receipts every week?

thebman · 29-09-2011 12:09PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Aldi and Lidl don't accept credit cards, neither do the farmers I buy my veg directly from.
To use a debit card there needs to be cash in the bank account.
Proof of purchase without an itemised list doesn't prevent alcohol etc being bought so do we employ people to go through thousands of receipts every week?

Aldi do accept debit cards though so they have the machines and accept Visa Debit. The cards only has to work like one of them, it doesn't have to use any existing system. Simple solution is not use farmers marts if they don't support the payment system or use your own savings. I don't think there is any rule that welfare should allow you to buy directly from farmers or from any store you want to. You can't rent any house with rent allowance either.

It isn't a debit card or credit card, it is a state card that works like those and looks like one so as not to stand out too much.

No you don't, you can identify irregular purchasing trends just by the amounts TBH (credit card/debit card companies do it all the time) so you could cut it down to a small percentage of payments by analyzing the data from all the cards since most people would use it properly. It would only really fail if everyone was abusing the system.

El Weirdo · 29-09-2011 12:18PM

thebman wrote: »

...Simple solution is not use farmers marts if they don't support the payment system or use your own savings. I don't think there is any rule that welfare should allow you to buy directly from farmers or from any store you want to. You can't rent any house with rent allowance either...

Sure why not go the whole hog and make sure that SW recipients are only allowed to buy approved items from something equivalent to the Tesco Value range.

Actually, fuck it, lets just give them Soylent Green wafers.

thebman · 29-09-2011 12:20PM

El Weirdo wrote: »

Sure why not go the whole hog and make sure that SW recipients are only allowed to buy approved items from something equivalent to the Tesco Value range.

Actually, fuck it, lets just give them Soylent Green wafers.

:rolleyes: Actually the introduction of a welfare card could be detected by the register and allow the likes of Tesco to give special discounts to those customers so it could have extra benefits for people on welfare though of course there could be legal issues with doing that.

noxqs · 29-09-2011 12:21PM

Government warehouse giving food/toilet paper/detergents and other monthly needs. That should do.

No cash in hand.

I have a hard time seeing how welfare should encompass more than a place to live, and the bare basics to get by.

donalg1 · 29-09-2011 12:36PM

I think the idea of food vouchers is a step too far now in fairness, even a food card no matter how close to an actual laser or credit card it is lookwise is a bit too far. Pay their rent directly to their landlord and then give them enough money for food for the week a nominal amount even, dependant on spouses and dependant children.

Basically if on Social Welfare for more than 12 months it should be cut to an amount that pays the rent and buys food and nothing else.

murphaph · 29-09-2011 12:44PM

noxqs wrote: »

No cash in hand.

I am in favour of welfare reduction but eliminating cash payments completely is a non-starter and would likely cost more (government food warehouses and logistics etc.) to implement than it could possibly save.

Welfare should just be reduced to an amount that doesn't allow one to buy luxuries (and by that I mean Heinz ketchup instead of the Lidl own brand, nevermind drink and fags).

If welfare was at this sort of level then recipients would have no choice but to use it properly as there wouldn't be any extra for luxuries.

Social welfare is not nor should it ever be to pay debts etc. People should have payment protection policies in place or save during times of employment for that sort of stuff.

Coupled with welfare reform we need an overhaul of the bankruptcy laws to allow people to go bankrupt and start from scratch.

Bannasidhe · 29-09-2011 01:56PM

thebman wrote: »

Aldi do accept debit cards though so they have the machines and accept Visa Debit. The cards only has to work like one of them, it doesn't have to use any existing system. Simple solution is not use farmers marts if they don't support the payment system or use your own savings. I don't think there is any rule that welfare should allow you to buy directly from farmers or from any store you want to. You can't rent any house with rent allowance either.

It isn't a debit card or credit card, it is a state card that works like those and looks like one so as not to stand out too much.

No you don't, you can identify irregular purchasing trends just by the amounts TBH (credit card/debit card companies do it all the time) so you could cut it down to a small percentage of payments by analyzing the data from all the cards since most people would use it properly. It would only really fail if everyone was abusing the system.

So the state should introduce a system that prevents people from supporting local producers directly, buying at a cheaper price the same products that are available in supermarkets many of which are not Irish owned so the profits leave the country? Way to stimulate the economy!

What bloody savings????? - they went while I waited 8 months to get my SW!

Bannasidhe · 29-09-2011 01:59PM

thebman wrote: »

:rolleyes: Actually the introduction of a welfare card could be detected by the register and allow the likes of Tesco to give special discounts to those customers so it could have extra benefits for people on welfare though of course there could be legal issues with doing that.

And a big SW branded on the forehead coupled with the ringing of a handbell would warn the public a drain on the public exchequer is trying to buy 'luxury' nappies

Sir Oxman · 29-09-2011 02:11PM

Lots of posts on here from some people who have not got the first clue about surviving on SW benefits. Every single one of the recent 'suggestions' are demeaning and dehumanising - as I've said repeatedly, looks like the media don't have their work cut out to persuade a lot of very ignorant people.

MommySquish · 29-09-2011 03:26PM

I am a single mother. Back in education. And working part time. So that money, that BARELY covers the costs of bettering myself is not exactly a luxury.

Yes, it sucks, but there is nothing much I can do. Getting by until I can get a proper job that doesn't pay minimum for back breaking labour in Tesco is my dream, sad maybe, but thats it. I'd love to sit on my ass and do nothing but OPF wouldn't cover it. And what money I do earn is means tested against it so I get a big reduction in my "generous benefit". Oh and btw, yeah I was a teen mom, had my baby at 19, but now at 22, I've been back in education, this is my second year, I am a qualified receptionist and am working toward a degree in Networking and Webdesign.

So you know what, I don't feel like I'm sponging, I feel like I'm trying to build a better life for me and my child. I went to a course last year particularly got young parents and there were the money-mummies, but they left in the first few months, except for the few that "stayed". For the bonus at the end of the year. They were sorely disappointed when they found out it was an 'attendance' bonus!

Any oh yeah, the fathers name is on the birth cert.

fliball123 · 29-09-2011 04:45PM

murphaph wrote: »

Well if he or she is a taxpayer then he or she will be missed.

All the rolleyes in the world won't change the fact that we need more taxpayers and fewer social welfare recipients.

Well thats the point I was also making more and more tax payers are getting the hell out of dodge sure why would you stay in a country where your effective tax rate has gone from 46 to 59% in 3 years...whilest watching the ps get cut by 14% and all the time half of this is a contribution to thier pension...not to mention the 1/4 of a billion in increments going on...and what % has been cut from the dole it was 204 its not 188 ..you do the math...so even do the effective tax rate is near to 3/5s of ever money you get and will be increased further...Well Degsy good luck with that keep your eye rolls for when the PS get cut Greece style

noxqs · 29-09-2011 09:24PM

when the PS get cut Greece style

I will have a heart attack from the glee or loose 10 pounds clapping my little hands in excitement. I hope they start from the highest paid and slash their way down.

Should there be a cap on social welfare payments?

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