Should there be a cap on social welfare payments?

Godge · 27-09-2011 10:02AM #1

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/call-for-welfare-pay-cap-as-couple-claim-90k-a-year-168808.html

The above article gives an example of a family on social welfare payments receiving over €90,000 per year.

It is an incredible amount of money to pay out on social welfare to just one family. It is not possible to know whether this is an isolated case or whether there are other families out there in a similar position.

It immediately raises the question of whether there should be a cap on the amount of social welfare paid into a household. Is there a point when a payment no longer is adequate but becomes over-generous.

I have pointed out for a long time that social welfare rates in general are too generous in Ireland and provide for a lot more than a basic standard of living. They also act as a disincentive to work not just from a monetary point of view but from a lifestyle point of view. A cap, well below 90k would make a great deal of sense.

It is worth remembering that proposals to cap public sector pay at €100,000 and pensions at €60,000 have got significant support on boards. Is there the same support for a cap on social welfare?

fliball123 · 27-09-2011 10:39AM

Godge wrote: »

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/call-for-welfare-pay-cap-as-couple-claim-90k-a-year-168808.html

The above article gives an example of a family on social welfare payments receiving over €90,000 per year.

It is an incredible amount of money to pay out on social welfare to just one family. It is not possible to know whether this is an isolated case or whether there are other families out there in a similar position.

It immediately raises the question of whether there should be a cap on the amount of social welfare paid into a household. Is there a point when a payment no longer is adequate but becomes over-generous.

I have pointed out for a long time that social welfare rates in general are too generous in Ireland and provide for a lot more than a basic standard of living. They also act as a disincentive to work not just from a monetary point of view but from a lifestyle point of view. A cap, well below 90k would make a great deal of sense.

It is worth remembering that proposals to cap public sector pay at €100,000 and pensions at €60,000 have got significant support on boards. Is there the same support for a cap on social welfare?

Godge we dont agree on a lot but there definately needs to be a cap on what people get off the dole..Dole should no longer be seen as a life style but as a means for people to get back on their feet

El Weirdo · 27-09-2011 10:58AM

Godge wrote: »

...It is not possible to know whether this is an isolated case ...

From the article, it's not even possible to know if this is an actual case at all.

As I said on the AH thread on this story, I think we're being trolled. It's ridiculously similar to the story about the guy from Tralee who's kids were eating cardboard, just flipped on its head.

fliball123 · 27-09-2011 11:02AM

El Weirdo wrote: »

From the article, it's not even possible to know if this is an actual case at all.

As I said on the AH thread on this story, I think we're being trolled. It's ridiculously similar to the story about the guy from Tralee who's kids were eating cardboard, just flipped on its head.

Eh it is an actual case maried couple with 4 kids getting the equivalent of 90k a year...It was also discussed on primetime last night...

Godge · 27-09-2011 11:03AM

El Weirdo wrote: »

From the article, it's not even possible to know if this is an actual case at all.

As I said on the AH thread on this story, I think we're being trolled. It's ridiculously similar to the story about the guy from Tralee who's kids were eating cardboard, just flipped on its head.

Well the mother's carers allowance to look after the father on disability allowance is one loophole allowing multiple payments that I have spotted before so that has a ring of truth.

The only puzzling one is the guardian's payment for taking in child. Could it be a foster payment?

El Weirdo · 27-09-2011 11:19AM

fliball123 wrote: »

...It was also discussed on primetime last night...

Do you mean this story was being discussed on Primetime last night? I didn't see it. And anyway, that doesn't make it true.

I'd like more details and to have someone verify the amounts that have been given are actually possible for a family to claim before I jump on the bandwagon shouting what a disgrace it is.

fliball123 · 27-09-2011 11:29AM

El Weirdo wrote: »

Do you mean this story was being discussed on Primetime last night? I didn't see it. And anyway, that doesn't make it true.

I'd like more details and to have someone verify the amounts that have been given are actually possible for a family to claim before I jump on the bandwagon shouting what a disgrace it is.

Well did you see the figure of 38k on prime time for a family of 4 - 2 unemployed 2 kids living in Dublin...basically an employer has to better 38k before one of them goes back to work regardless of if the 90k story is true or false ... I know (family wise ) 3 people who are on the dole...All 3 have to much cash they live at home and have money for smokes and drink and then when it comes to paying out for say presents at xmas they have one sleeve longer than the other....Welfare needs cutting

El Weirdo · 27-09-2011 11:39AM

fliball123 wrote: »

Well did you see the figure of 38k on prime time for a family of 4 - 2 unemployed 2 kids living in Dublin...basically an employer has to better 38k before one of them goes back to work regardless of if the 90k story is true or false ... I know (family wise ) 3 people who are on the dole...All 3 have to much cash they live at home and have money for smokes and drink and then when it comes to paying out for say presents at xmas they have one sleeve longer than the other....Welfare needs cutting

So it doesn't matter if the story is true or not, then? Show me a family on benefits that's got an easy life and I'll show you several more that are struggling.

All stories like this do is stir up resentment towards people receiving benefits. Everyone is lumped in together regardless of whether they are in genuine need or not.

Sir Oxman · 27-09-2011 11:49AM

El Weirdo wrote: »

So it doesn't matter if the story is true or not, then? Show me a family on benefits that's got an easy life and I'll show you several more that are struggling.

All stories like this do is stir up resentment towards people receiving benefits. Everyone is lumped in together regardless of whether they are in genuine need or not.

My pet hate as a worker of 28 years now unemployed.

There is no doubt the system of payments is labyrinthine and not based on genuine need.
A crude set of qualifiers are used and many loopholes exist.
I agree there should be a cap but not some povertyline arbitrary figure to satisfy the mob.

I don't know for sure, unlike many on here, but I estimate the vast majority of recent dole recipients are anything but on the pigsback.

I also agree that tv, radio and papers are paving the way for a wholesale onslaught against all SW recipients - it's as obvious as the big nose on my face.
Demonise, dehumanise, cut.

fliball123 · 27-09-2011 11:52AM

El Weirdo wrote: »

So it doesn't matter if the story is true or not, then? Show me a family on benefits that's got an easy life and I'll show you several more that are struggling.

All stories like this do is stir up resentment towards people receiving benefits. Everyone is lumped in together regardless of whether they are in genuine need or not.

Hang on look at what I am saying 38 k for doing fcuking nothing...cmon is it because they are worth it...No person or family in this country will go hungry if they look for help...There needs to be more incentive to get people out working and not spounging ... and as I say 3 family members are on the stratch one of whom was able to afford a holiday this year...I am working my boll0x off and can hardly afford a night out..how is that fair.....I am not saying take away from those who are not able or too old to work ..but those who are in able body and mind should have to do community service for their dole and the dole should be given out in vouchers to stop the money being spent on alcohol, sky, holidays and smokes ...Why should the tax payer be paying for this when they are struggling to make ends meet themselves....As I say no one will go hungry or cold if they ask for help but the 188 needs to cut with at least half going into vouchers for supermarkets...I have a kid but chilrens allowence needs to be in the form of vouchers and cut....We can no longer allow Welfare as a lifestyle and people need to be made more uncomfortable in living this way to force them to work.

fliball123 · 27-09-2011 11:54AM

gambiaman wrote: »

My pet hate as a worker of 28 years now unemployed.

There is no doubt the system of payments is labyrinthine and not based on genuine need.
A crude set of qualifiers are used and many loopholes exist.
I agree there should be a cap but not some povertyline arbitrary figure to satisfy the mob.

I don't know for sure, unlike many on here, but I estimate the vast majority of recent dole recipients are anything but on the pigsback.

I also agree that tv, radio and papers are paving the way for a wholesale onslaught against all SW recipients - it's as obvious as the big nose on my face.
Demonise, dehumanise, cut.

Demonised, dehumanised...hows about the fact that people living next store to each other 1 working earning under 38k sees his buddy earning that without lifting a finger??? Its about time the entitilement factor in this country got a kick in the hole

EoghanConway · 27-09-2011 11:57AM

El Weirdo wrote: »

From the article, it's not even possible to know if this is an actual case at all.

Actually it is, because those numbers are impossible. For example, carer's allowance has an upper limit of €358.50, not €380.(http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/carers/carers_allowance.html)

This looks like a theoretical exercise and an out of date one to boot. Nothing to see here.

DonalK1981 · 27-09-2011 12:06PM

There is a cap on welfare payments.

Sir Oxman · 27-09-2011 12:28PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Demonised, dehumanised...hows about the fact that people living next store to each other 1 working earning under 38k sees his buddy earning that without lifting a finger??? Its about time the entitilement factor in this country got a kick in the hole

I know it goes on and it is wrong and should be fixed, I can't believe anyone could argue the contrary.

My focus is the media and politicians and commentators dehumanising and demonising everyone who receives SW benefits- happens everytime and people fallover themselves to help the tide on it's way without a singular, rational thought on the subject.

What happens is the genuine people suffer along with the spoofers.

fliball123 · 27-09-2011 12:36PM

gambiaman wrote: »

I know it goes on and it is wrong and should be fixed, I can't believe anyone could argue the contrary.

My focus is the media and politicians and commentators dehumanising and demonising everyone who receives SW benefits- happens everytime and people fallover themselves to help the tide on it's way without a singular, rational thought on the subject.

What happens is the genuine people suffer along with the spoofers.

True but I think everyone and I mean everyone (yes that includes PS workers) needs to take a cut and Income tax needs to be raised we are all in hte sh1t together ... and to blame just the bankers and developers is a folly they contributed 1/3 of what we owe the other 2/3s is from over spend and this is still increasing by 18billion...So shoulder to the wheel and all..on a side note good luck to all this December...lets hope the axe falls evenly on all sides

molloyjh · 27-09-2011 02:37PM

A couple of points on this story:

1. The father is disabled and the daughter is special needs so it's not like the mother can work even if she wanted to. It's hardly as though she's sitting on her arse at home doing nothing either!

2. Not sure where the figures are coming from as they don't seem to match what is on welfare.ie, as Eoghan has already pointed out. I would be taking this with a pinch of salt tbh.

3. Even if true, this is a family of 6 living in Dublin with 2 disabled/special needs individuals to take care of, one of which is a parent in the home. And there's at least 1 adopted child. I can't imagine there are many more extreme cases than this. Instead of focusing on the extremes maybe it would be more worthwhile that Senator Harte spend his time looking at the people who are illegally claiming welfare payments (he said this family were not doing anything illegal). I'd wager there's far more money to be saved there.

fliball123 · 27-09-2011 02:47PM

molloyjh wrote: »

A couple of points on this story:

1. The father is disabled and the daughter is special needs so it's not like the mother can work even if she wanted to. It's hardly as though she's sitting on her arse at home doing nothing either!

2. Not sure where the figures are coming from as they don't seem to match what is on welfare.ie, as Eoghan has already pointed out. I would be taking this with a pinch of salt tbh.

3. Even if true, this is a family of 6 living in Dublin with 2 disabled/special needs individuals to take care of, one of which is a parent in the home. And there's at least 1 adopted child. I can't imagine there are many more extreme cases than this. Instead of focusing on the extremes maybe it would be more worthwhile that Senator Harte spend his time looking at the people who are illegally claiming welfare payments (he said this family were not doing anything illegal). I'd wager there's far more money to be saved there.

But the story is indicitive of the double payments people are getting..I mean if you are getting a carers allowance you should not be getting the dole aswell

woodoo · 27-09-2011 02:53PM

Equal to the Average Industrial Wage should be the cap for any family on welfare.

BANZAI_RUNNER · 27-09-2011 02:59PM

Personally I think that the Dole in its current form is wrong , I think no money should be paid , they should be given 50kg bags of rice, 50kg bags of flour , powdered milk , etc , if they want pizza the they should get a job , I also think that before anyone gets any dole payments , all their tattoos and piercings should be counted, and checked regularly, and if any new ones turn up , then no more dole for them , I know people who are on the dole etc and get new tattoos almost on a monthly basis, it is true that in Ireland the dole is seen as a lifestyle , well if everyone else who work have to ' take the pain ' they i don't see why the people on the dole shouldn't

death1234567 · 27-09-2011 03:03PM

woodoo wrote: »

Equal to the Average Industrial Wage should be the cap for any family on welfare.

Should it not be less than the average industrial wage to encourage them to go out and get a job??? You should never be better off on welfare than having paid employment IMO.

BANZAI_RUNNER · 27-09-2011 03:07PM

death1234567 wrote: »

Should it not be less than the average industrial wage to encourage them to go out and get a job??? You should never be better off on welfare than having paid employment IMO.

I agree , it has got to be less than the average industrial wage , maybe even as low as 75% of it, there is work out there, but as i have seen in earlier posts, its not worth their while going out looking for it when they can get the same money if not more sitting on the sofa at home with the feet up and a Stella in the hand

Welease · 27-09-2011 03:12PM

BANZAI_RUNNER wrote: »

I agree , it has got to be less than the average industrial wage , maybe even as low as 75% of it, there is work out there, but as i have seen in earlier posts, its not worth their while going out looking for it when they can get the same money if not more sitting on the sofa at home with the feet up and a Stella in the hand

I think you need to differenciate between the capped level and the average level.. The capped level should only be reached in exceptional cases.

Someone who is unlucky enough to have to care for several disabled children is not in a position to go out and seek work, nor are they likely to be sitting on the sofa at home with their feet up and a Stella in the hand..
They are likely working their arses off trying to do the best they can with minimal support from the state.

fliball123 · 27-09-2011 03:22PM

woodoo wrote: »

Equal to the Average Industrial Wage should be the cap for any family on welfare.

No it shouldnt it should be a lot lower otherwise people will choose the dole as a lifestyle instead of working..we can no longer afford this sorry

fliball123 · 27-09-2011 03:24PM

Welease wrote: »

I think you need to differenciate between the capped level and the average level.. The capped level should only be reached in exceptional cases.

Someone who is unlucky enough to have to care for several disabled children is not in a position to go out and seek work, nor are they likely to be sitting on the sofa at home with their feet up and a Stella in the hand..
They are likely working their arses off trying to do the best they can with minimal support from the state.

True but if you are getting a payment as a carer they should not be getting the dole aswell as they are legally not able to work and are getting the carers why should they be getting a double payment?

BANZAI_RUNNER · 27-09-2011 03:28PM

Welease wrote: »

I think you need to differenciate between the capped level and the average level.. The capped level should only be reached in exceptional cases.

Someone who is unlucky enough to have to care for several disabled children is not in a position to go out and seek work, nor are they likely to be sitting on the sofa at home with their feet up and a Stella in the hand..
They are likely working their arses off trying to do the best they can with minimal support from the state.

I know that Carers get the worst deal from social welfare. My apologies as i was not clear about who i was referring to , which is of course the 'pyjama ' brigade , who you can regularly see during the day strolling around towns and villages in their pyjamas , because they are even too lazy to get dressed , I was in a bank recently and overheard two of them having a discussion about their ' wages ' ( that's their words) , and someone else in the queue turned around and asked they what they meant by wages, because to have wages you must have a job, needless to say they guy got the usual 4 letter word responses from them .

Welease · 27-09-2011 03:31PM

fliball123 wrote: »

No it shouldnt it should be a lot lower otherwise people will choose the dole as a lifestyle instead of working..we can no longer afford this sorry

Do you honestly believe that it's a lifestyle choice to have disabled husband and special needs children?

I know you don't.. So why do people continue to try and mix the two? Can you show anyone who is earning anywhere near the cap on Social Welfare who is entitled to that amount purely for the reason they don't want to work (i.e. lifestyle choice)..

Simply put, its not possible to collect those amounts by choice alone..

There is a cap on entitlements.. a valid arguement could be made that it's too high, and that there are certain payments which could be construed as double payments. People should discuss those and where cuts could/should be made.. but to pretend that lifestyle dolee's can earn anywhere near 90K is pure rubbish.

fliball123 · 27-09-2011 03:39PM

BANZAI_RUNNER wrote: »

I know that Carers get the worst deal from social welfare. My apologies as i was not clear about who i was referring to , which is of course the 'pyjama ' brigade , who you can regularly see during the day strolling around towns and villages in their pyjamas , because they are even too lazy to get dressed , I was in a bank recently and overheard two of them having a discussion about their ' wages ' ( that's their words) , and someone else in the queue turned around and asked they what they meant by wages, because to have wages you must have a job, needless to say they guy got the usual 4 letter word responses from them .

Well that sums up this country and it can be summed up in 1 word "ENTITLEMENT"I am sick to death of paying through the nose to pay for people to stay comfortable while I get up every morning go to work , work harder for less cash and then to see these people show up in the pub or going on holidays...Its not just the dole, its public sector employees both working and retired who think it prudent to stay covered under the CPA..Not to mention other groups such as Unmarried mothers...why the fcuk should I pay for your kids?? The place is a mess and a joke people are completely taking the p1ss

fliball123 · 27-09-2011 03:43PM

Welease wrote: »

Do you honestly believe that it's a lifestyle choice to have disabled husband and special needs children?

I know you don't.. So why do people continue to try and mix the two? Can you show anyone who is earning anywhere near the cap on Social Welfare who is entitled to that amount purely for the reason they don't want to work (i.e. lifestyle choice)..

Simply put, its not possible to collect those amounts by choice alone..

There is a cap on entitlements.. a valid arguement could be made that it's too high, and that there are certain payments which could be construed as double payments. People should discuss those and where cuts could/should be made.. but to pretend that lifestyle dolee's can earn anywhere near 90K is pure rubbish.

Well I have already said that I am talking about people milking it..Is every individual claiming Disabled NO... but once again, Did I have a say in this situation when they were procreating?? People should only have kids if they can afford them ...Why should I as a tax payer be left holding the bag because they decided one drunken night to do it without a Johnny??? People need to be held accountable and in your above situation if the hubby is disabled and the wife already working as a carer...why the hell are they having kids???

Welease · 27-09-2011 03:56PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Well I have already said that I am talking about people milking it..Is every individual claiming Disabled NO...

But this thread is about payment being made to disabled couple... as previously asked, can you show me how someone without disability benefits etc can earn any where near 90K?

fliball123 wrote: »

but once again, Did I have a say in this situation when they were procreating?? People should only have kids if they can afford them ...Why should I as a tax payer be left holding the bag because they decided one drunken night to do it without a Johnny???

Absolutely they do.. I don't think you will find many who disagree.. However, in this thread you are attempting to link different situations/circumstances together to form a rant..

fliball123 wrote: »

People need to be held accountable and in your above situation if the hubby is disabled and the wife already working as a carer...why the hell are they having kids???

Do you know which order the had children in? He could have fallen off a ladder last year, would that be ok then??

The point is.. there does need to be caps on welfare amount, but those caps and discussions about those caps should be based on facts, not attempts to link a 90K payment to one specific family to the fact that some lazy goodfornothings have never worked a day in their life.. They are not the same, and they are not eligible to claim anywhere near the same levels of benefits.

fliball123 · 27-09-2011 04:02PM

Welease wrote: »

But this thread is about payment being made to disabled couple... as previously asked, can you show me how someone without disability benefits etc can earn any where near 90K?

Absolutely they do.. I don't think you will find many who disagree.. However, in this thread you are attempting to link different situations/circumstances together to form a rant..

Do you know which order the had children in? He could have fallen off a ladder last year, would that be ok then??

The point is.. there does need to be caps on welfare amount, but those caps and discussions about those caps should be based on facts, not attempts to link a 90K payment to one specific family to the fact that some lazy goodfornothings have never worked a day in their life.. They are not the same, and they are not eligible to claim anywhere near the same levels of benefits.

Hang on I have accepted that the 90k story is probably overblown..my point here is that the worst case has been put up by people stating the dole should not be cut....and I have said..If a guy is disabled and his wife on carers looking after him..why have they deemed it prudent to have 2 kids...Unfortunately they are special needs but the point being ...they should not have had two kids when they are financially dependent on the state

Welease · 27-09-2011 04:13PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Hang on I have accepted that the 90k story is probably overblown..my point here is that the worst case has been put up by people stating the dole should not be cut....and I have said..If a guy is disabled and his wife on carers looking after him..why have they deemed it prudent to have 2 kids...Unfortunately they are special needs but the point being ...they should not have had two kids when they are financially dependent on the state

But you don't (nor do I) have the basis for that arguement.. He could very well have fallen from a ladder 12 months ago and ended up disabled..
Unlikely, but a possibility.. You can't start making laws or benefits which require people to have the ability to see the future, and not have special needs children in case they lose their job (given we have no ability to abort foetus's with identified issues).

If you expand your arguement out to its natural conclusion, then noone on the Live register should be given financial help either.. they should not have had X kids when they are now financially dependant on the state..

I get the point you are trying to make, but I think you are making to many assumptions and conclusions which you don't have any data to backup.. Noone should be able to earn 90K on welfare.. There do need to be cuts, and rationalisations of what could be termed double payments, but that needs to be done on the facts on what payments are available and the costs associated, no on whether some guy who is now disabled should have kids, and definately not by linking this one story to the fact that there are lazy gits who have no intention of working..

Should there be a cap on social welfare payments?

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