Luas security. Who vets these guys?

Logical Fallacy · 27-09-2011 02:47AM

MyKeyG wrote: »

Nobody is saying the security guys shouldn't have acted so your point is moot. It's the manner in which they acted is the issue here. Minor transgression is no call to violence. Should they have been drinking? No. Do they deserve illegal assault? Absolutely not!

I once had a Luas inspector grab me by the arm and pull me back because he thought I was trying to do a bunk by getting off while he was getting on. It just happened to be my stop and I did have a ticket. Some if not most of these guys are nothing more than ignorant poorly trained gorillas on a power trip.

lol, where the hell does the OP say anything about "illegal assault"?

MyKeyG · 27-09-2011 02:54AM

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

lol, where the hell does the OP say anything about "illegal assault"?

Ok that was incorrect since I don't know the manner in which the lads were kicked off but we're still talking about aggressive intimidating behaviour so my point still stands as to the manner in which they dealt with the incident rather than that they dealt with it at all. And they are still a bunch of aggressive gorillas.

Sinfonia · 27-09-2011 02:58AM

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

They grabbed their cans and threw them off the Luas.

Before this all goes any further, could AMC please describe what literally happened, because to say that they were 'thrown' off the Luas is obviously using the term figuratively (I hope!), and as a result many posters are inventing the circumstances to suit their own arguments.

Logical Fallacy · 27-09-2011 03:01AM

MyKeyG wrote: »

Ok that was incorrect but we're still talking about aggressive intimidating behaviour so my point still stands as to the manner in which they dealt with the incident rather than that they dealt with it at all. And they are still a bunch of aggressive gorillas.

Once again, where is the aggressive and intimidating behaviour described?

OP says they took the cans and threw them off the Luas. He says they gave him "a look".

When i was a bouncer i reckon 99% of people who walked past me on any given night were feeling somewhat intimidated, i reckon if i looked at them with anything other than a smile they felt directly intimidated. Its a body language thing.

No disrespect to the OP...but if i have been working all day and i have to deal with this kind of trivial **** because some lads lack the brains to do what a simple sign says and i have to chuck them off and I'm probably sick of the situation the second it's over, i don't need some random dude deciding that what he saw was not game ball...so i'm gonna give a tired and exasperated look that basically says "ah pal, sit down and shut up"...mainly because i'm human.

Here is the thing about security and the doing thereof, in any circumstances anywhere on the planet...the second you have to actually do your job, especially for the small stuff like this that still needs doing...you cannot win in the eyes of the public. The second you get involved you are a power tripping monkey with no intelligence...as opposed to being exactly what the person who is judging you is...just a guy who has to do his job.

If OP wants to give more details then i'll revise my opinion of the situation...but for now i am going with what i know to be true most of the time and that is that he felt intimidated rather than he actually was intimidated.

AskMyChocolate · 27-09-2011 03:02AM

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

This is incorrect...it never would have happened if the lads had not been drinking on the Luas.

I was actually having this conversation earlier. I did door work and security (retail and industrial and some private and personal) for about a decade and the number one rule is...don't be a ****ing moron. As a bouncer i like a quite life...so don't put me in a position where you are openly flouting the laws i have to enforce.

To do so just lets me know you think you are different to everyone else and also lets me know you think i am a mug. Do whatever the **** you like when i can't see you as long as it doesn't harm anyone else.

The lads were obviously drinking the cans in plain view...the Luas has camera's and if the tapes are reviewed for any reason and the security guards are seen not doing what they should be doing then it's them in trouble.

It's pretty simple really...I have no time for this "sure they weren't bothering anyone" angle. They were in direct contravention of posted rules.

Excellent post there chief, and the sort of post I was hoping to get in response when I posted my OP.

There was an excellent reply earlier, about how things can get lost in translation. The line, officially is the line, and I understand that. As a barman, though, the drinking-up time is very different in Brixton, than it is in Dublin, than it is in Thurles.

This is the job of a professional IMO. He guages the line. The licensing hours are the same, but it is up to the professional to know who's taking the piss and who isn't,given where he is working, IMO.

11 O'clock may be closing time. But, asking for a drink, at 11.15 in Brixton is taking the piss, whereas asking for a drink at 11.15 in Thurles, is getting one in, before they "really" stop serving.

You know this.

Choco

Logical Fallacy · 27-09-2011 03:08AM

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

Excellent post there chief, and the sort of post I was hoping to get in response when I posted my OP.

There was an excellent reply earlier, about how things can get lost in translation. The line, officially is the line, and I understand that. As a barman, though, the drinking-up time is very different in Brixton, than it is in Dublin, than it is in Thurles.

This is the job of a professional IMO. He guages the line. The licensing hours are the same, but it is up to the professional to know who's taking the piss and who isn't,given where he is working, IMO.

11 O'clock may be closing time. But, asking for a drink, at 11.15 in Brixton is taking the piss, whereas asking for a drink at 11.15 in Thurles, is getting one in, before they "really" stop serving.

You know this.

Choco

Agreed, but also each pub (as an example) will have rules that all the staff know if they witness them being broken they should instantly act upon them. In some places, depending on the owners own personal preference they can seem small or innocuous but they feel they are important.

It's really all down to what line Veolia themselves take. If it's zero tolerance for breach of that rule then the lads hands are tied...they can't really show discretion because they second they do it's balls on the chopping block.

CoolHat · 27-09-2011 03:26AM

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

I would be particularly interested in hearing Makikomi's and other doorstaff/bouncers' opinions on this.

I was coming home on the Luas tonight and I got talking to a bunch of lads who were on their way in to CFJ's. They couldn't have been a nicer bunch of lads. Two from Tipperary, two from Kildare.

They were drinking a can but not bothering anyone. Next thing, these two black-clad thugs started treating them in the way that some knackers should be treated.

They grabbed their cans and threw them off the Luas. I said to them "There's no need for that". They looked at me, and I swear, if it wasn't for the fact that I'm a middle-aged man, they'd have thrown me off too.

You said yourself. The lads were alright. It would be a different story if they were skangers that are likely to pose a 'problem' to them :rolleyes:. Said luas security would handle things differently in that case.

Thats the way security works. From Shops to the Luas. If you look or act in anyway 'soft' , they will come down on you with authority. ... BUT If you look, or act anyway hard its a different story. Suddenly said security had the diplomatic approach at first.

Sinfonia · 27-09-2011 03:29AM

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

It's really all down to what line Veolia themselves take. If it's zero tolerance for breach of that rule then the lads hands are tied...they can't really show discretion because they second they do it's balls on the chopping block.

Also, despite the fact that the OP considered the guys to be nice, another passenger may feel intimidated by the fact that someone is drinking alcohol on the Luas. It happens, and it's pretty unfair to that hypothetical person given the rules are clearly against drinking on the tram.

minidazzler · 27-09-2011 03:29AM

CoolHat wrote: »

You said yourself. The lads were alright. It would be a different story if they were skangers that are likely to pose a 'problem' to them :rolleyes:. Said luas security would handle things differently in that case :rolleyes:

Thats the way security works. From Shops to the Luas. If you look or act in anyway 'soft' , they will come down on you with authority. ... BUT If you look, or act anyway hard its a different story. Suddenly said security is diplomatic.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

MOST security people will be very amiable and nice if you are nice. Some will be pricks regardless. But MOST, as in the vast majority, are really nice guys.

RichieC · 27-09-2011 03:30AM

I think it is bad policy to allow bouncers to wear all black. It gives them a psychological power trip that I think is detrimental to the service they are providing.

Large reflective yellow jackets should be the order of the day. Also hand held walkie talkies.

Sinfonia · 27-09-2011 03:31AM

RichieC wrote: »

I think it is bad policy to allow bouncers to wear all black. It gives them a psychological power trip that I think is detrimental to the service they are providing.

Large reflective yellow jackets should be the order of the day. Also hand held walkie talkies.

A nice sky blue may provide a calming effect

AskMyChocolate · 27-09-2011 03:32AM

MyKeyG wrote: »

Saying that security are only doing their job is all well and good. My problem is that they appear selective on who exactly they challenge. Four young lads in smart club attire that they can handle they throw them off the tram. Four apparent trouble makers in hoodies on their way home from town guzzling cans and being boisterous then security decide to turn a blind eye and hop off at the next stop.

If it wasn't for your socio-economic stereotyping I would agree with your post. I've seen them back off against an ugly smartly clad bunch aswell.

RichieC · 27-09-2011 03:36AM

Sinfonia wrote: »

A nice sky blue may provide a calming effect

Aye, they use the same debuffs on the trainee garda... it works too

CoolHat · 27-09-2011 03:37AM

minidazzler wrote: »

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

MOST security people will be very amiable and nice if you are nice. Some will be pricks regardless. But MOST, as in the vast majority, are really nice guys.

wrong?
no. you're wrong.
People pick and choose their battles right? in every day life. People are more confrontational with a person who they deem as soft touch than someone who can handle himself right? (proven time and time again) ... you surely agree to this right?

Try doing that for a living. When its your job to confront people. All different sorts of people. You quickly learn to read who has nothing behind them and someone who does (the art of reading) .... And if its your job you will come on stronger with people who you deem "soft" than people who appear to "back themselves up"

Chucky the tree · 27-09-2011 03:37AM

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

Excellent post there chief, and the sort of post I was hoping to get in response when I posted my OP.

There was an excellent reply earlier, about how things can get lost in translation. The line, officially is the line, and I understand that. As a barman, though, the drinking-up time is very different in Brixton, than it is in Dublin, than it is in Thurles.

This is the job of a professional IMO. He guages the line. The licensing hours are the same, but it is up to the professional to know who's taking the piss and who isn't,given where he is working, IMO.

11 O'clock may be closing time. But, asking for a drink, at 11.15 in Brixton is taking the piss, whereas asking for a drink at 11.15 in Thurles, is getting one in, before they "really" stop serving.

You know this.

Choco

So if your manager in the bar in Thurles tells you not to sereve anyone after 11 O'Clock no matter what, you ignore his wishes and sereve them?

RichieC · 27-09-2011 03:41AM

CoolHat wrote: »

Try doing that for a living. When its your job to confront people. All different sorts of people. You quickly learn to read who has nothing behind them and someone who does (the art of reading) .... And if its your job you will come on stronger with people who you deem "soft" than people who appear to "back themselves up"

That's honestly not been my experience, the instant bouncers sense a real threat they're on it like a swarm of black stocky wasps. Weaker types who couldn't kick snow off a rope usually just get laughed away if it gets beyond "Sorry, no entry."

AskMyChocolate · 27-09-2011 03:42AM

Degag wrote: »

I think both parties were probably wrong ( if things went exactly as stated) The youths shouldn't have been drinking on the luas. End of. But the security should have gone up to them and spoken to them. If they were getting out in a few minutes, there was no need to kick them off, just tell 'em to hide the cans and give them a firm warning not to do it again. In the case of a longer ride, fine, confiscate the cans but leave them ride to their stop if they're genuine lads. If they cause trouble, kick them off.

A bit of common sense goes a long way.

I think this goes to the heart of the matter, and I think a zero tolerance (well nearly, zero tolerance) attitude is what's needed.

"If I find ye bothering people lads, out ye go."

But, of course, that would stop the sing-songs too.:pac:

It's never black and white....

......except for Mrs.Hicks' pudding.

See y'all for breakfast for the Italy game.

Go on lads.:)

Choco

leggo · 27-09-2011 05:22AM

CoolHat wrote: »

Try doing that for a living. When its your job to confront people. All different sorts of people. You quickly learn to read who has nothing behind them and someone who does (the art of reading) .... And if its your job you will come on stronger with people who you deem "soft" than people who appear to "back themselves up"

I'm guessing that you haven't done it for a living, then.

The opposite is actually true. If someone is acting in an intimidating manner, you have to come down on them harder or else...guess what...they'll know they are intimidating you and will walk all over you.

If you tried doing it for a living, yourself, then you'd know you welcome soft touches that you don't have to use a firm hand with. Because you've spent all day dealing with the former and just want a bit of peace.

You also have to weigh up your options and take your personal safety into account, of course, so softly-softly is always Plan A for a good security guard.

But the description you've outlined with your previous two posts shows exactly that you don't have a clue what mentality security have on a day-to-day basis.

MrMatisse · 27-09-2011 07:24AM

MyKeyG wrote: »

Saying that security are only doing their job is all well and good. My problem is that they appear selective on who exactly they challenge. Four young lads in smart club attire that they can handle they throw them off the tram. Four apparent trouble makers in hoodies on their way home from town guzzling cans and being boisterous then security decide to turn a blind eye and hop off at the next stop.

They were boggers going to coppers, wouldnt say they were dressed all that well:p

up for anything · 27-09-2011 07:55AM

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

used to be capable of cuddling lads out of a pub before trying to start a fight?

Maybe if lads kept a grip on themselves and didn't drink themselves insensible and uncapable they would need to be asked to leave let alone cuddled out of a pub. I'm fed up of the excuses we seem to continually make in this country for assholes, of both sexes, who can't exert a bit of self-control over their consumption of alcohol. "Ah sure it's Christmas/Easter/wedding/21st/funeral/Friday/Saturday/Monday." The list is endless. :rolleyes:

MagicMarker · 27-09-2011 08:13AM

What a retarded thread, some gobshites are drinking on public transport and thrown off public transport for doing same. Quick, someone pass me the violin.

FlutterinBantam · 27-09-2011 08:19AM

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

This is the point. The lads were self-enclosed in a four man seat on the Luas, not bothering anyone, and the staff decided to "enforce the rules".

Utterly pointless IMO. Nobody was complaining, and they were getting off two stops later. I was chatting to them. Utterly harmless. I was getting off in Ranelagh and I was saying to them that Harcourt St. would prob be better than Stephen's Green for them when all this **** startred happening.

Three muscle-bound blokes to diffuse what a 9 stone barman wouldn't have let escalate in the first place IMO.

As I said, lack of professionalism IMO.

Load of bulldust mate.

Luas rules no drinking, fair play for the security bods to stop it.

Less of the 'Aaah sure it's only me ' attitude would be welcome in this country.

Same goons who complain against clampers, you wouldn't be clamped if you weren't breaking the rules bud.

Same ignorant assholes who park in disabled spots even though they are able bodied, and there are plenty vacant spots nearby.

They do it because nobody enforces it.

AskMyChocolate · 27-09-2011 08:34AM

matrim wrote: »

Personally I'd say that the security may have been better to just take any open cans and warn them not to open another, however without the full details I can't say if they were right to kick them off.

Maybe these same 4 guys had been warned the week before not to drink and did it again, so the security decided to kick them off this time?[/QUOTE]

No, just four young lads (tourists) up from the country, who didn't realise that "the rules" are actually "THE RULES". And being dropped down to the disco isn't done in Uncle Johnjo's mini-van.:(

I hope they don't go home with a sour taste of Dublin in their mouths.:o

Choco

FlutterinBantam · 27-09-2011 08:42AM

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

matrim wrote: »

Personally I'd say that the security may have been better to just take any open cans and warn them not to open another, however without the full details I can't say if they were right to kick them off.

Maybe these same 4 guys had been warned the week before not to drink and did it again, so the security decided to kick them off this time?[/QUOTE]

No, just four young lads (tourists) up from the country, who didn't realise that "the rules" are actually "THE RULES". And being dropped down to the disco isn't done in Uncle Johnjo's mini-van.:(

I hope they don't go home with a sour taste of Dublin in their mouths.:o

Choco

I hope they go home with the impression that if people actually put up signs saying 'No drinking alcohol on the Luas' you can't actually drink acohol.

The sign doesn't say 'Tourists and nice guys can drink alcohol'.

get a grip man.

minidazzler · 27-09-2011 08:49AM

leggo wrote: »

I'm guessing that you haven't done it for a living, then.

I'm getting the impression that CoolHat has never worked with people, never mind in a security situation. This country is full of "It's only me" types, who don't realize that to me they are simply punters, I understand there is a problem, I just don't really care all that much.

up for anything wrote: »

Maybe if lads kept a grip on themselves and didn't drink themselves insensible and uncapable they would need to be asked to leave let alone cuddled out of a pub. I'm fed up of the excuses we seem to continually make in this country for assholes, of both sexes, who can't exert a bit of self-control over their consumption of alcohol. "Ah sure it's Christmas/Easter/wedding/21st/funeral/Friday/Saturday/Monday." The list is endless. :rolleyes:

So you're not up for anything then? Drinking yourself into oblivion is perfectly OK IMO, as long as you aren't a mean drunk.

foxyboxer · 27-09-2011 08:50AM

The funny thing is they were conspicuously absent on Monday morning when some oul lad with his can of Czech beer insisted on repeatedly telling the whole Luas that there were 27 security cameras on the tram.

Crazy Horse 6 · 27-09-2011 08:55AM

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

I would be particularly interested in hearing Makikomi's and other doorstaff/bouncers' opinions on this.

I was coming home on the Luas tonight and I got talking to a bunch of lads who were on their way in to CFJ's. They couldn't have been a nicer bunch of lads. Two from Tipperary, two from Kildare.

They were drinking a can but not bothering anyone. Next thing, these two black-clad thugs started treating them in the way that some knackers should be treated.

They grabbed their cans and threw them off the Luas. I said to them "There's no need for that". They looked at me, and I swear, if it wasn't for the fact that I'm a middle-aged man, they'd have thrown me off too.

The standard of security in this state, and the quality of security guards is slipping badly. Whatever happened to the bouncers who had nothing to prove, didn't have a chip on their shoulder about being turned downed by the guards/army, and used to be capable of cuddling lads out of a pub before trying to start a fight?

Choco

Proper order throwing them off. Can't stand louts who drink on public transport.

AskMyChocolate · 27-09-2011 08:59AM

Victor wrote: »

I can't comment on that particular incident.

I was using Luas the other day and a woman was hit on the head by a (nearly empty) Heineken can.

However, the general environment on Luas has improved a lot over the last year. I'm not saying things are perfect, but drinking, smoking, loutish behaviour and generaly carry on isn't acceptable and is an imposition that other passengers could do without.

Absolutely no argument there chief. But, I remember, meself and a couple of the lads, going down to Thurles on the Dublin-Cork train. There were
a couple of children running amok (amuck?). The parents were nowhere to be seen. They were not exactly bothering an elderly couple, but you could tell that they had enough of grandchildren for the week.

The kids were bored. The man was asleep. The woman looked tired.

We said to the two kids, "Come over here and help me win this game of twenty-five"

They learned a new card game, left that elderly couple alone, and their parents got a break.

And we were having a can. No problems....

....except of course when they demanded another rubber and we had to get out at Thurles.:pac:

Beffy · 27-09-2011 09:04AM

With the crap that those security guards put up with on the Luas I fully understand their zero tolerance attitude. If you aren't a scumbag don't do scumming things like drinking on public transport.

The security guards i've spoken to on the Luas are ex police from their home countries.

Lollipops23 · 27-09-2011 09:10AM

Wow, so Boardsies are all up in arms over scumbags and the general deterioration of society, yet when 2 guys crack open some cans on the Luas the same posters are all "leave the poor lads alone" about it...???

For what it's worth, the vast,vast majority of people I see drinking on public transport should have enforced sterilisation.

Luas security. Who vets these guys?

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