Console Ban 3-9-11 (Mod Warning Post #755)

KERSPLAT! · 24-09-2011 12:02AM

To all those that said MS don't make mistakes.... :P:P:P

calex71 · 24-09-2011 12:08AM

This means nothing imo, until they grow some and actually explicitly tell people the how the why the when of the ban.

If they have the facts and are 100% sure they are right then ban away and fear not the slander allegations as they can be backed up with solid proof.

I realise though that telling people this may open it hardcore guys to setting parameters in their methods to bypass the checks, catch 22 i suppose.

gizmo · 24-09-2011 12:10AM

Zab wrote: »

That's really good news. I hope OP is one of the people who's console gets unbanned, I'm assuming that it will.

However,

this isn't even close to enough compensation. I don't know what they hell MS are smoking here. They need to agree to re-examine their "no information" policy for console bans and the measly offering above doesn't come close to matching OP's anguish at having to deal with Microsoft on this issue. Considering what it costs Microsoft to give Live subscription I'm actually pretty shocked that they're only offering three months.

Horrific litigious culture in the US called, it wants its hyperbolic wording back. The OP did not suffer "anguish", he suffered inconvenience, which the free Live time (which corresponds to more than three times as long as he's been without the service) and 1600pts (around $20) covers in a perfectly acceptable manner.

They also do not need to re-examine their no information policy in the slightest, the statement above couldn't have been clearer, the policy is in place to avoid situations where people try and get information about why they're banned with an eye to circumventing it the next time. Look at it like this, out of the million plus people who have been banned, this is the first time they've made a mistake. And no, this isn't the first time a fuss has been kicked up about it, if you watched the XBox forums and kept on an eye on the bigger news sites you'd have seen plenty of coverage, and indeed complaints from people who claimed they'd be banned in error on previous occasions, none of which were ever true.

panevthe3rd · 24-09-2011 12:10AM

Well I think North1 is gonna make millions from that new pie shop he is gonna open. "The Humble Pie" will be his best seller.

I think he's owed an apology from Xbox360Achievements for one. They closed a thread just coz they didn't beleive him.

Happy it ended this way.

NORTH1 · 24-09-2011 12:12AM

Quick note just seen this my console was boxed up for a trip to England but the DHL didnt show!! Anyway went out to the flix with the Mrs North just in and see the messages on boards plug in console and recover game tag and yep Im back on-line!!!

Thanks guys for your assist in this one I might have quit if it was not for your support and advice, and thanks to the Moddes here who must have thought they were refereeing world war three in the early days.

I wonder who cancelled DHL?

.E_C_K_S. · 24-09-2011 12:27AM

Jesus MS wouldn't even say it was related to the Zombie Maps did they? They really need to give customers better reasons for bans in all fairness.

Anyways glad ya got it sorted in the end North, twil go down as a legendary thread.

"The man who took on MS....and won :The North1 saga":p

Zab · 24-09-2011 12:30AM

gizmo wrote: »

Horrific litigious culture in the US called, it wants its hyperbolic wording back. The OP did not suffer "anguish", he suffered inconvenience, which the free Live time (which corresponds to more than three times as long as he's been without the service) and 1600pts (around $20) covers in a perfectly acceptable manner.

They also do not need to re-examine their no information policy in the slightest, the statement above couldn't have been clearer, the policy is in place to avoid situations where people try and get information about why they're banned with an eye to circumventing it the next time. Look at it like this, out of the million plus people who have been banned, this is the first time they've made a mistake. And no, this isn't the first time a fuss has been kicked up about it, if you watched the XBox forums and kept on an eye on the bigger news sites you'd have seen plenty of coverage, and indeed complaints from people who claimed they'd be banned in error on previous occasions, none of which were ever true.

Disagree with everything you've written. Knowing that you've done nothing wrong and being told that you have but we won't tell you what and there's nothing you can do about it is more than an "inconvenience". There was no hyperbole in my statement, although ironically calling it "horrific litigious culture" could be termed hyperbolic.

You can't say this is the first time that people have been incorrectly banned. All you can say is that it's the first time that Microsoft have admitted to it, and even that assumes that you've been paying attention. This situation has certainly highlighted the flaws in their no-information policy. If they'd told OP that it was because his console was modded then there would have been no doubt it was a mistake. Instead there was a chance that one of his kids had done something they shouldn't on the marketplace. I don't believe that security through obscurity has no place, but their argument for using it here is extremely weak. They do not need to release technical details on how they know, they simply need to say what they know.

A year's subscription + points would be much more in line.

mossie · 24-09-2011 12:33AM

One in the eye for the "microsoft are always right" people:D Nobody is always right, It's always possible to get it wrong even if you're Microsoft...

Horsebox9000 · 24-09-2011 12:39AM

Fair play North1, ye fought a hard battle and won.

I think the main reason why people have been so quick to say that you were lying was because that the system was pretty full proof for the past 6 years which in turn caused alot of people to defend MS.

Now go rent a crappy B-movie from Zune with all those wonderful MS points

ColdDeck45 · 24-09-2011 12:45AM

Unbanned and up and running here too.

gizmo · 24-09-2011 12:47AM

Zab wrote: »

Disagree with everything you've written. Knowing that you've done nothing wrong and being told that you have but we won't tell you what and there's nothing you can do about it is more than an "inconvenience". There was no hyperbole in my statement, although ironically calling it "horrific litigious culture" could be termed hyperbolic.

Usage of the term anguish in this context is blowing things way out of proportion in fairness. I understand it was frustrating, I sympathised earlier in the thread and would hate to be in the position myself but at no point would I equate it with anything other than a major annoyance. Using the term "anguish" and "compensation" just take things in a very unsavory route as far as I'm concerned.

Zab wrote: »

You can't say this is the first time that people have been incorrectly banned. All you can say is that it's the first time that Microsoft have admitted to it, and even that assumes that you've been paying attention.

If something like this had happened previously then people would have complained to MS in a similar manner, who would have looked into and retracted the bans if there had been a mistake. Of course it's impossible for someone outside to say it's the first time with absolute certainty but I think it's the most likely scenario given what we've seen thus far.

Zab wrote: »

This situation has certainly highlighted the flaws in their no-information policy. If they'd told OP that it was because his console was modded then there would have been no doubt it was a mistake. Instead there was a chance that one of his kids had done something they shouldn't on the marketplace. I don't believe that security through obscurity has no place, but their argument for using it here is extremely weak. They do not need to release technical details on how they know, they simply need to say what they know.

Actually I think it shows how well it works in this context. People will only escalate the issue if they're convinced of their innocence. Without such measures in place you'd have a similar scenario to the Account Bans which are (for instance) allowed to be posted about on the XBox forum and which show how many people are willing to chance their arm in getting unbanned.

Zab wrote: »

A year's subscription + points would be much more in line.

A years subscription for being without the service for a maximum of 26 days? Seriously?

Zab · 24-09-2011 01:08AM

gizmo wrote: »

Usage of the term anguish in this context is blowing things way out of proportion in fairness. I understand it was frustrating, I sympathised earlier in the thread and would hate to be in the position myself but at no point would I equate it with anything other than a major annoyance. Using the term "anguish" and "compensation" just take things in a very unsavory route as far as I'm concerned.

Ok, "anguish" I can take or leave if you have a better word. "Inconvienience" is not that word. "Compensation" is here to stay though.

If something like this had happened previously then people would have complained to MS in a similar manner, who would have looked into and retracted the bans if there had been a mistake. Of course it's impossible for someone outside to say it's the first time with absolute certainty but I think it's the most likely scenario given what we've seen thus far.

Total supposition. I'm not suggesting that MS knowingly left incorrect bans in place by the way, but that there could have been similar bugs in the past that they didn't catch.

Actually I think it shows how well it works in this context. People will only escalate the issue if they're convinced of their innocence. Without such measures in place you'd have a similar scenario to the Account Bans which are (for instance) allowed to be posted about on the XBox forum and which show how many people are willing to chance their arm in getting unbanned.

I'm not too sure if you're taking the piss here but you seem to be suggesting that the system totally failing and OP being forced to take to forums and mass media is the system "[working] in context". That's crazy talk. The system failed. Boards.ie is not part of the Microsoft system. Besides which, my argument for it being a bad system sits apart from these current events.

A years subscription for being without the service for a maximum of 26 days? Seriously?

Yes, it was a totally serious suggestion.

Anyway, we disagree. I don't think there's too much more to be said.

NORTH1 · 24-09-2011 01:19AM

WALSHY16291 wrote: »

Jesus MS wouldn't even say it was related to the Zombie Maps did they? They really need to give customers better reasons for bans in all fairness.

Anyways glad ya got it sorted in the end North, twil go down as a legendary thread.

"The man who took on MS....and won :The North1 saga":p

Feck compo from Microsoft I'm waiting on a call from Spielberg this script has everything from the highs and lows of thinking a call from Ms support would mean everything was going to be all right to the gut wrenching feeling you get when you hear nope you did something wrong we know you did something wrong but we wont tell you what that is.....but hey take our word for it because we are never wrong.....now be a good little consumer and go out and buy a new console.

They asked me to stop post here in turn I would get preferential treatment from support with a direct line to an office in England, and I bought it but it looks like they were only stalling to make this announcement, as the collection for the console didn't happen today as arranged.

Gizmo I would not like to put my trust in a system where guilt is assumed without proof of evidence. They may have started from a good position but not having to produce proof has made them lazy as this nightmare has proved, and please don't assume to know what I have gone through the last twenty days, I swear I have an ulcer from it....

gizmo · 24-09-2011 01:21AM

Zab wrote: »

I'm not too sure if you're taking the piss here but you seem to be suggesting that the system totally failing and OP being forced to take to forums and mass media is the system "[working] in context". That's crazy talk. The system failed. Boards.ie is not part of the Microsoft system. Besides which, my argument for it being a bad system sits apart from these current events.

Nope, I'm being serious. In this case Microsoft re-examined the issue because enough people stuck with their complaints to a point which someone who had modded their console wouldn't have. In this manner the system works at keeping the hundreds of thousands of people who have been console banned legitimately at bay, and offers some recourse for those who haven't. Yes, this means the burden is placed on the consumer which some people won't agree with but when you're dealing with that number of consoles across the world and such a huge number of people willing to lie, cheat and steal on the system, I don't think there's any real alternatives.

But yes, most definitively agree to disagree. As we've seen in this thread already there are plenty on both sides of the fence.

NORTH1 wrote: »

Gizmo I would not like to put my trust in a system where guilt is assumed without proof of evidence. They may have started from a good position but not having to produce proof has made them lazy as this nightmare has proved, and please don't assume to know what I have gone through the last twenty days, I swear I have an ulcer from it....

To all intents and purposes, that's what the system is and as many have already pointed out, it's there for a good reason. They are by no means lazy, they couldn't afford to be on a matter such as this. My apologies if you think I was assuming what you've been through, that wasn't my intention. On the other hand if you do call it anguish I have no problem dismissing it as a gross exaggeration.

NORTH1 · 24-09-2011 02:43AM

gizmo wrote: »

Nope, I'm being serious. In this case Microsoft re-examined the issue because enough people stuck with their complaints to a point which someone who had modded their console wouldn't have. In this manner the system works at keeping the hundreds of thousands of people who have been console banned legitimately at bay, and offers some recourse for those who haven't. Yes, this means the burden is placed on the consumer which some people won't agree with but when you're dealing with that number of consoles across the world and such a huge number of people willing to lie, cheat and steal on the system, I don't think there's any real alternatives.

But yes, most definitively agree to disagree. As we've seen in this thread already there are plenty on both sides of the fence.

To all intents and purposes, that's what the system is and as many have already pointed out, it's there for a good reason. They are by no means lazy, they couldn't afford to be on a matter such as this. My apologies if you think I was assuming what you've been through, that wasn't my intention. On the other hand if you do call it anguish I have no problem dismissing it as a gross exaggeration.

1) Who are the many? cause I haven't seen them
2)When good reason outweighs consumer rights and consumer law you have a problem as has been proved.
3)My experiences of this whole affair has been lazy responses from microsoft due to the fact they claim to not ban lightly this is fact you can't defend them over this!
4)That is an interesting point how many here feel I have grossly exaggerated my experience over the last 20 days or so?
5) And what would your actions be if you where wrongly accused?

gizmo · 24-09-2011 03:29AM

NORTH1 wrote: »

1) Who are the many? cause I haven't seen them

The "many" refers to people on this thread and others like it who agree that the reasoning behind MS' banning policy is sound. It's not ideal by any means but given the number and caliber of people the Enforcement Team have to deal with, it's the best they can do.

NORTH1 wrote: »

2)When good reason outweighs consumer rights and consumer law you have a problem as has been proved.

What was proved? You and a small number of others were banned incorrectly. Microsoft have since apologised and compensated you. Could they have done it faster? Perhaps, but they'd probably want to be sure given the precedent they're setting. Should they give out ban information as some have said they should? I'm in the camp that doesn't think so. Does their ToS state that they'll respond to inquiries such as these with the responses you got? Yup. Is all that legal? Not a bloody clue but if in doubt, don't agree to them.

NORTH1 wrote: »

3)My experiences of this whole affair has been lazy responses from microsoft due to the fact they claim to not ban lightly this is fact you can't defend them over this!

I fail to see where they banned lightly here? They banned incorrectly sure, but they evidently acted on the information in the same manner as they would in other cases as per Stepto's response.

NORTH1 wrote: »

4)That is an interesting point how many here feel I have grossly exaggerated my experience over the last 20 days or so?

Just to stop you there, at no point did I say you grossly exaggerated your experience. One poster said you suffered anguish, you did not say that yourself. I initially said referring to it as anguish would be hyperbolic and later said it would be grossly exaggerating it given the events that transpired.

NORTH1 wrote: »

5) And what would your actions be if you where wrongly accused?

As I said in an earlier reply to you, nearly exactly the same as yours bar some alterations to the letter you wrote.

Angry Mom · 24-09-2011 04:40AM

Gizmo, I think the point being missed here is not that consoles were unjustly banned but that Microsoft's stance on 100% accuracy and public statements accusing ALL who were banned of being thiefs, pirates and liars is a direct attack on ones values, morals and the way in which one lives their life. This is where I personally took issue. Also, although I hold my children accountable for all of their actions, I do give them the benefit of the doubt and I can tell you that if this same circumstance had happened in the home in which I grew up quite frankly I shudder at what have would have happened to me as a child growing up in a home where there was no benefit of the doubt given. I wonder how many children there are who because of Microsoft's stance suffered more than not being to connect to Live. It is my belief that Microsoft needs to look beyond the numbers and consider the human element when making and enforcing their policies.

Mr E · 24-09-2011 06:53AM

I'll be curious to see what they do for the people who hit a brick wall when contacting Microsoft, didn't have NORTH1's patience, and went out and bought a new console (as seems to have been the case with a few people in that Major Nelson post I linked earlier).

They're (rightly) saying that 1600 points and 3 months Gold doesn't even come close to compensating them.

declanx · 24-09-2011 07:47AM

MS is unbanning some consoles. Their monitoring program screwed up. See link.
http://www.egmnow.com/articles/news/microsoft-reversing-certain-recent-xbox-live-bans/

Mr E · 24-09-2011 08:20AM

No sh*t...
Did you even read the last few posts before posting?

JD1763 · 24-09-2011 08:42AM

3 months xbox live and 1600 points is simply another slap in the face for those were banned incorrectly. Of course they aren't using that piece of software anymore and its definitely only happened this once :rolleyes:.

KERSPLAT! · 24-09-2011 08:50AM

JD1763 wrote: »

3 months xbox live and 1600 points is simply another slap in the face for those were banned incorrectly. Of course they aren't using that piece of software anymore and its definitely only happened this once :rolleyes:.

Exactly, MS who don't make mistakes... made a mistake, who's to say they haven't made, or will make, mistakes in other instances

bryaner · 24-09-2011 09:51AM

gizmo wrote: »

Nope, I'm being serious. In this case Microsoft re-examined the issue because enough people stuck with their complaints to a point which someone who had modded their console wouldn't have. In this manner the system works at keeping the hundreds of thousands of people who have been console banned legitimately at bay, and offers some recourse for those who haven't. Yes, this means the burden is placed on the consumer which some people won't agree with but when you're dealing with that number of consoles across the world and such a huge number of people willing to lie, cheat and steal on the system, I don't think there's any real alternatives.

But yes, most definitively agree to disagree. As we've seen in this thread already there are plenty on both sides of the fence.

To all intents and purposes, that's what the system is and as many have already pointed out, it's there for a good reason. They are by no means lazy, they couldn't afford to be on a matter such as this. My apologies if you think I was assuming what you've been through, that wasn't my intention. On the other hand if you do call it anguish I have no problem dismissing it as a gross exaggeration.

Why not call it anguish, the mans head was wrecked thats anguish in my world..

kellso81 · 24-09-2011 09:55AM

declanx wrote: »

MS is unbanning some consoles. Their monitoring program screwed up. See link.
http://www.egmnow.com/articles/news/microsoft-reversing-certain-recent-xbox-live-bans/

Can a mod please move this to YLYL, cos I lost hard!

TheMooseInNam · 24-09-2011 11:00AM

kellso81 wrote: »

Can a mod please move this to YLYL, cos I lost hard!

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about???

YLYL???

cos I lost hard???

Did you think you were posting in the after hours forum???

TheMooseInNam · 24-09-2011 11:58AM

North1, I'm absolutely delighted that you finally got your console unbanned, I really am. Albeit, I'm slightly disappointed that it didn't turn out that your son was a major player on the hacker/modder scene because that would have been truly hilarious

MS's token gesture of 1600 points and three months LIVE membership is a fairly decent gesture and shows that they've actually acknowledged this as a pretty big deal. Considering I only ever got one month free for RRoD'd consoles, comparatively they are compensating you well.

However, I'm pretty sure the compensation pales into insignificence compared to the warm feeling of being able to hold your head high and tell us all "I told you so!" Actually having your console back in action again probably comes a close second

It's been an interesting journey over the last three weeks, imagine it's only been three weeks! Feels so much longer. From a corporate point of view, to have them realise that there's a probelm, understand what the problem is, publically acknowledge the problem and unban the consoles effected... three weeks is a pretty decent turn around time. I would have loved to be MS's red tape supplier for September

However, as has been mentioned by a few others, this thread isn't quite finished yet. Sure, North1 has received a satisfactory outcome , in addition to Steptoe acknowledging that the ban process must be more transparent in the future allowing a better appeals process but there are still some customers that may have actually gone out and bought new consoles, as was recommended by MS support.

From a PR point of view, accidentally banning a number of consoles for three weeks, realising the mistake and unbanning/compensating the effected customers isn't that serious really but causing and recommending some customers to go out and purchase new consoles could turn into a PR nightmare if not handled correctly.

In saying all that, I really can't imagine MS really having to refund too many consoles and in the grand scheme of things it's only a little bump on a very large and long road for them.

On a side note, I'd like to thank everyone who posted on this thread. The contributions on the whole were excellent and it made for a very entertaining and an interesting read. I'm sure the level of maturity showed by most posters aided North1 by having MS support actually take his case a little more seriously. From my point of view, it was nice to see that MS actually acknowledged this thread/forum, even if it was for North1 to stop posting on it

I believe Board's Xbox forum to be one of the better xbox related forums due to the quality of posters, broad spectrum of ideas and opinions and the research from else where that posters bring into the threads. The resulting positive outcome for North1 is a credit to everyone who participated.

My final thought, although North1's son has avoided a kicking in this particular situation, he is a teenager and therefore must be guilty of something eventually and I still believe a preemptive size 10 strike is required!

gizmo · 24-09-2011 12:51PM

Mr E wrote: »

I'll be curious to see what they do for the people who hit a brick wall when contacting Microsoft, didn't have NORTH1's patience, and went out and bought a new console (as seems to have been the case with a few people in that Major Nelson post I linked earlier).

They're (rightly) saying that 1600 points and 3 months Gold doesn't even come close to compensating them.

Said users should be able to provide a receipt for the new console to MS and be fully reimbursed. The LIVE time/points could also be kicked up a notch for the added inconvenience. Anything less than the former and they'd be opening themselves up to legal trouble I'd imagine.

Angry Mom wrote: »

Gizmo, I think the point being missed here is not that consoles were unjustly banned but that Microsoft's stance on 100% accuracy and public statements accusing ALL who were banned of being thiefs, pirates and liars is a direct attack on ones values, morals and the way in which one lives their life. This is where I personally took issue. Also, although I hold my children accountable for all of their actions, I do give them the benefit of the doubt and I can tell you that if this same circumstance had happened in the home in which I grew up quite frankly I shudder at what have would have happened to me as a child growing up in a home where there was no benefit of the doubt given. I wonder how many children there are who because of Microsoft's stance suffered more than not being to connect to Live. It is my belief that Microsoft needs to look beyond the numbers and consider the human element when making and enforcing their policies.

And I'd argue that Microsoft's policy exists solely because of the human element involved in this. Take a look at the Bans forum and some of the lengths and indeed lies some people are willing to tell to get unbanned.

For example, here's another "Angry Mama" who has again gone through both MS telephone support and now onto the forums, furious that her son was banned and has done nothing wrong and wants it all fixed now! The kid was actually caught hacking CoD and completely deserved the ban.

As I said previously, it'd be great if people were able to openly challenge console bans in the same manner as account ones but when you look at what would needed to be done - photos provided, account purchases scrutinized and then up to having someone send their console in for examination - combined with the risk in giving out information to modders/hackers, then they're left with few workable alternative to the current system in my opinion.

bryaner wrote: »

Why not call it anguish, the mans head was wrecked thats anguish in my world..

Why leave it at anguish though? Why not call it emotional distress? In fact, why not sue for emotional distress too?

Angry Mom · 24-09-2011 02:14PM

Gizmo, again, you are missing the point, it isn't about emotional anguish either, it's about protecting one's right to not have their character slandered or morals questioned, regardless of merit, if you are so willing to hand over that right to Microsoft than you deserve any slanderous words they throw your way. Lets be realistic here, how hard is it really to set up an appeal process for console bans....umm...not really hard.

1. Set up satellite ban center at various locations, maybe retailers.
2. Those who would like to appeal are charged a fee to have console reviewed.
3. Fee is reimbursed if console found to be legit and service reinstated.
4. Fee kept by Microsoft if console found to be modded and service not reinstated.

Not that hard and the benefit, customers are treated with some level of fairness, Microsoft can identify problems in their own systems if through the
appeal process it appears consoles are being unjustly banned which helps
customers like you Gizmo who may be the next one caught in the crossfire
when the next ban wave hits and in addition the appeal process may even restore people's faith that Microsoft really means it when they say " we care".

PseudoFamous · 24-09-2011 02:53PM

Angry Mom wrote: »

1. Set up satellite ban center at various locations, maybe retailers.
2. Those who would like to appeal are charged a fee to have console reviewed.
3. Fee is reimbursed if console found to be legit and service reinstated.
4. Fee kept by Microsoft if console found to be modded and service not reinstated.

There wouldn't be enough appeals to make this profitable, and profitability is the thing that companies strive for.

Angry Mom · 24-09-2011 03:20PM

Again, the human element, though it may not be profitable one would hope that these multibillion companies would hold themselves to some sort of moral standard, if not, then they really have no business holding their customers accountable to any moral standard either. That's the problem with business today, the bottom line is dollars not morals, is that the kind of world we want to leave behind for our kids and grandkids? I'm naive I know but I would like to have a little more faith in human kind, I don't believe in accepting the unacceptable just because that's the way it is. If everyone did that women wouldn't be able to vote today and segregation would still exist. Change can be affected, it may take a century or more but it can be affected and we should never stop striving to make the world a better place for all who inhabit it.

Console Ban 3-9-11 (Mod Warning Post #755)

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