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''Islam is a religion of peace'' (debate)

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    #392
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    So your afraid to publically state what you'd like to be seen done to Muslims to protect non-Muslims?

    tinfoilhatarea.jpg&sa=X&ei=5d1aTuS-K46WOpikxIgM&ved=0CAYQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNFawuBMOM5vaiDeK_uUD07Hp8AMMA

    Seriously, WTF are you smoking?
    I can haz some?


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    #393
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    SamHarris wrote: »
    I never said anyone should be hurt physically, I am merely discussing the causes and effects of violence in Muslim communities. I seriously doubt anyone who read these posts is going to go out and burn a mosque...

    Really?

    Read from the resignation letter of a Daily Star reporter.
    “Well, try this: ‘The lies of a newspaper in London can get a bloke’s head caved-in down an alley in Bradford.’ If you can’t see that words matter, you should go back to running porn magazines.”
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/mar/04/daily-star-reporter-letter-full

    And this explains the anti-Islamic agenda in the press
    I nearly walked out last summer when the Daily Star got all flushed about taxpayer-funded Muslim-only loos.

    A newsworthy tale were said toilets Muslim-only. Or taxpayer-funded. Undeterred by the nuisance of truth, we omitted a few facts, plucked a couple of quotes, and suddenly anyone would think a Rochdale shopping centre had hired Osama Bin Laden to stand by the taps, handing out paper towels.

    I was personally tasked with writing a gloating follow-up declaring our postmodern victory in "blocking" the non-existent Islamic cisterns of evil.

    Not that my involvement in stirring up a bit of light-hearted Islamaphobia stopped there. Many a morning I've hit my speed dial button to Muslim rent-a-rant Anjem Choudary to see if he fancied pulling together a few lines about whipping drunks or stoning homosexuals.

    Our caustic "us and them" narrative needs nailing home every day or two, and when asked to wield the hammer I was too scared for my career, and my bank account, to refuse.

    "If you won't write it, we'll get someone who will," was the sneer du jour, my eyes directed toward a teetering pile of CVs. I won't claim I've simply been coshed into submission; I've necked the celeb party champagne and pocketed all the freebies, relying on hangovers to block out the rest.

    Of course this will most likely mean nothing to you.


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    #394
    SamHarris
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Really?

    Read from the resignation letter of a Daily Star reporter.



    And this explains the anti-Islamic agenda in the press



    Of course this will most likely mean nothing to you.
    ]

    Your completly right, it does mean nothing to me. I said no one here has said anyone should get hurt and you show us... that?


    Are you feeling all right?


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    #395
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    SamHarris wrote: »
    ]

    Your completly right, it does mean nothing to me. I said no one here has said anyone should get hurt and you show us... that?


    Are you feeling all right?

    You don't get it do you? You never will. That details the statement of a reporter for a national newspaper describing how he is pressured into fabricating anti-Islamic "news" stories. I've just posted a highly detailed report which clearly links these stories to anti-Islamic hate crimes. These are the kinds of stories that have been posted in this thread already and which I've shown to be either fabrications or misleading. Your whole house of cards position is based on this kind of nonsense and as a result you are talking nonsense repeatedly. You haven't been able to support a single statement you've made once it's put under the microscope. Now you may or may not be prone to violence but if you are going to be publishing opinions (stated as facts) which can lead to innocent monorities being attacked in the street solely because of their choice of religion you should at least have the decency to be sure you are correct. You quite clearly haven't done this.


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    #396
    deravarra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,814 ✭✭✭deravarra


    SamHarris wrote: »
    No you said dozens of times people who are insulting should get what "they desrve".

    Is this debate over? Has everyone that is anyway reasonable realised how violent and oppresive Islam routinely is?

    Excuse me? You deduce that Islam is routinely oppressive and violent from what exactly?


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    #397
    deravarra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,814 ✭✭✭deravarra


    Sarky wrote: »
    How do you square "nothing should beget violence" with asserting that someone who gets a beating for insulting the Washington monument had it coming?

    I do believe that nothing should beget violence. Nothing. However, nobody should be too surprised that if they insult, oppress or piss on what is sacred to someone else, they may get a whack now and again.

    Is that me supporting violence? No.

    If I went to a nightclub and started to insult a guy's girlfriend ... should I protest the right to free speech if I am being threatened with violence? No. I would be getting what I deserved!


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    #398
    deravarra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,814 ✭✭✭deravarra


    liamw wrote: »
    Changed your tune then...

    No, I didnt. You took everything totally out of context to try and present your own "argument" as being valid, but failed miserably


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    #399
    deravarra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,814 ✭✭✭deravarra


    SamHarris wrote: »
    Eloquent and informed that cant grasp a basic concept like freedom of speech? Her profound understanding terrifies me.

    Im afraid BB she couldnt try harder to be a caricutare of the type of people that make up the bulk of Muslims, enablers for the smaller (but still unsettling large) number that take part in direct violence.

    I made it quite clear that I value free speech. I hold it dear to me. But I absolutely reject the notion that someone should use that RIGHT to do nothing but insult someone else or something which is dear and sacred to another.

    If I were to stand at the wailing wall in Jerusalem and start shouting and hurling abusive comments towards all who prayed there - how long would you think I would be allowed stay there, without getting attacked. Would you think any consequences for those actions could be construed as Jewish violence?

    Probably not ... being the islamophobe you are, there is only "islamic" violence - and only muslims have the tendency for it.


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    #400
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    deravarra wrote: »
    If I went to a nightclub and started to insult a guy's girlfriend ... should I protest the right to free speech if I am being threatened with violence? No. I would be getting what I deserved!

    First of all God isn't a human, so no analogy of that nature holds up. He is the most powerful being in the universe so he needs no defence and I'm pretty sure He'd expect people to rise above such pathetic threats and actions. Secondly, the threat of violence is never what anyone deserves.


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    #401
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,344 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    deravarra wrote: »
    I made it quite clear that I value free speech. I hold it dear to me. But I absolutely reject the notion that someone should use that RIGHT to do nothing but insult someone else or something which is dear and sacred to another.

    Well, I reject the notion that someone should be threatened with death if they choose to use their right of free speech, regardless of if it upsets people.
    deravarra wrote: »
    If I were to stand at the wailing wall in Jerusalem and start shouting and hurling abusive comments towards all who prayed there - how long would you think I would be allowed stay there, without getting attacked. Would you think any consequences for those actions could be construed as Jewish violence?

    Yes, I would consider it to be Jewish violence. But that's just as bad. Nobody should be attacked for exercising their right to free speech regardless of the situation.
    deravarra wrote: »
    Probably not ... being the islamophobe you are, there is only "islamic" violence - and only muslims have the tendency for it.

    This thread is about Islam. We are discussing Islamic violence.


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    #402
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    deravarra wrote: »
    I do believe that nothing should beget violence. Nothing. However, nobody should be too surprised that if they insult, oppress or piss on what is sacred to someone else, they may get a whack now and again.

    Is that me supporting violence? No.

    If I went to a nightclub and started to insult a guy's girlfriend ... should I protest the right to free speech if I am being threatened with violence? No. I would be getting what I deserved!

    That's inconsistent. If you say you're against violence but refuse to condemn it under certain circumstances, or even worse, say "he/she deserved it", then you're trying to hold 2 opposite views at once.

    It doesn't work. It's pretty much the same as the old line "I'm not racist, but..."


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    #403
    deravarra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,814 ✭✭✭deravarra


    Sarky wrote: »
    That's inconsistent. If you say you're against violence but refuse to condemn it under certain circumstances, or even worse, say "he/she deserved it", then you're trying to hold 2 opposite views at once.

    It doesn't work. It's pretty much the same as the old line "I'm not racist, but..."

    Not at all. I do not condone violence, but if you wanna play with fire you are gonna get burnt. simples. need a diagram?


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    #404
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    deravarra wrote: »
    Not at all. I do not condone violence, but if you wanna play with fire you are gonna get burnt. simples. need a diagram?
    Stay classy.


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    #405
    deravarra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,814 ✭✭✭deravarra


    Malty_T wrote: »
    First of all God isn't a human, so no analogy of that nature holds up. He is the most powerful being in the universe so he needs no defence and I'm pretty sure He'd expect people to rise above such pathetic threats and actions. Secondly, the threat of violence is never what anyone deserves.

    The anaology is valid and holds. we are discussing what someone holds dear to them.


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    #406
    deravarra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,814 ✭✭✭deravarra


    Barrington wrote: »
    Well, I reject the notion that someone should be threatened with death if they choose to use their right of free speech, regardless of if it upsets people.

    Hope you arent inferring that I support death threats for people who cause offence to others ....


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    #407
    Improbable
    Registered Users Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Improbable


    deravarra wrote: »
    Hope you arent inferring that I support death threats for people who cause offence to others ....

    So just to clarify, what do you think SHOULD happen to someone who insults islam?


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    #408
    deravarra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,814 ✭✭✭deravarra


    Improbable wrote: »
    So just to clarify, what do you think SHOULD happen to someone who insults islam?

    Nice going there ... I say I hope someone doesnt infer i support death threats ... and then i am asked to clarify what i think should happen to those who insult islam...

    i'm beginning to think this thread should be called: "let's kick the crap out of islam and muslims as an expression of our freedom of speech"

    Just to clarify - can you read?


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    #409
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    deravarra wrote: »
    Nice going there ... I say I hope someone doesnt infer i support death threats ... and then i am asked to clarify what i think should happen to those who insult islam...

    i'm beginning to think this thread should be called: "let's kick the crap out of islam and muslims as an expression of our freedom of speech"

    Just to clarify - can you read?

    When you say people will get what they "deserve" for insulting islam and then trying to claim you're against violence then a request for clarification is to be expected


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    #410
    deravarra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,814 ✭✭✭deravarra


    bluewolf wrote: »
    When you say people will get what they "deserve" for insulting islam and then trying to claim you're against violence then a request for clarification is to be expected

    Another person who has a reading/comprehension problem.

    Show me the precise place where you think I say people will get what they deserve for insulting islam?

    You can't, because I never said it.

    This is typical BS.


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    #411
    Improbable
    Registered Users Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Improbable


    deravarra wrote: »
    Nice going there ... I say I hope someone doesnt infer i support death threats ... and then i am asked to clarify what i think should happen to those who insult islam...

    i'm beginning to think this thread should be called: "let's kick the crap out of islam and muslims as an expression of our freedom of speech"

    Just to clarify - can you read?

    I haven't read the whole thread in depth, just scrolled through a few of the entries. I've seen that you don't condone violence. I haven't insulted you in the slightest, I was just curious as to what you think should happen to those who insult islam since you say that violence is not a good thing but that they also shouldn't be allowed to insult islam.


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    #412
    deravarra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,814 ✭✭✭deravarra


    Improbable wrote: »
    I haven't read the whole thread in depth, just scrolled through a few of the entries. I've seen that you don't condone violence. I haven't insulted you in the slightest, I was just curious as to what you think should happen to those who insult islam since you say that violence is not a good thing but that they also shouldn't be allowed to insult islam.

    Again, I never said anyone shouldnt be allowed to insult islam. I never said that anywhere. Please feel free to show me where you think I did.


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    #413
    Improbable
    Registered Users Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Improbable


    deravarra wrote: »
    Again, I never said anyone shouldnt be allowed to insult islam. I never said that anywhere. Please feel free to show me where you think I did.
    deravarra wrote: »
    I am very much in support of freedom of speech. However, I loathe and detest the very thought that someone can take this sacred right and decide to piss all over something which another holds dear and sacred to them - because they have a "right" to do so.

    If I've misunderstood your meaning, my apologies. Perhaps you could clarify what you mean in that case.


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    #414
    deravarra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,814 ✭✭✭deravarra


    Improbable wrote: »
    If I've misunderstood your meaning, my apologies. Perhaps you could clarify what you mean in that case.

    I thought it rather self explanatory. Someone has a right - and when they have that sacred right, they decide that to use that sacred right to insult another?

    Like having the right to bear arms and deciding to shoot someone for fun.

    Along with every right there is a responsibility....


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    #415
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    deravarra wrote: »
    The anaology is valid and holds. we are discussing what someone holds dear to them.

    So the threat of violence is warranted or deserved if someone holds something close to them. Sorry, but I disagree and I still need an explanation as to why a person can't just rise it above it : It is their God after all, hardly a fragile or vulnerable loved one.


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    #416
    deravarra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,814 ✭✭✭deravarra


    Malty_T wrote: »
    So the threat of violence is warranted or deserved if someone holds something close to them. Sorry, but I disagree and I still need an explanation as to why a person can't just rise it above it : It is their God after all, hardly a fragile or vulnerable loved one.


    :/ go away, have a coffee and relax for a bit.

    Show me where you think I said or inferred ANY of the above.

    Don't go putting a spin on what i said and making it out to be what you would pigeonhole me for... ok?

    I wont be "clarifying" this point over and over again. I made it quite clear on a number of occasions. No violence. And you still want clarification? duh


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    #417
    deravarra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,814 ✭✭✭deravarra


    Barrington wrote: »
    Okay, how about this:

    Let's say you came to my house with a picture of my family, spat on it right in front of me, then jumped up and down on it.

    Should I threaten you with death? I may say "Get out of here or I'll punch you", but to be honest, I wouldn't punch you. I'd just say that to try and make you leave.

    Now obviously, I hold my family to be very dear to me. One of the most important aspects of my life. And yes, I'd be offended at what you did. But I wouldn't harm you. Not because it's your right to do that, but mainly because it's just a picture. A picture of something I hold dear to me, but a picture nonetheless.

    Now, if I went to a predominantly Muslim area and spat on a picture of Muhammad, do you think I would be treated the same way? I mean after all, it's just a picture. It doesn't harm Muhammad in any way. And to the people that see me doing it, what of it? They hold Muhammad to be dear to them, but how does what I did affect that in any way? I'm not stopping them from practicing their religion in any way. Should I be beaten up?

    FFS - is there anyone amongst you who can read?

    Can you understand the statement "nothing should beget violence"?

    jeez ...


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    #418
    Improbable
    Registered Users Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Improbable


    deravarra wrote: »
    I thought it rather self explanatory. Someone has a right - and when they have that sacred right, they decide that to use that sacred right to insult another?

    Like having the right to bear arms and deciding to shoot someone for fun.

    Along with every right there is a responsibility....

    Would you not agree though that the right to freedom of speech is MOST important when what you have to say is something that the majority don't agree with. For example, I'm an atheist. If someone came along and started saying that atheists were all immoral and were bad people etc, I would be irritated, but I still wouldn't want to curtail what they're saying. That's the essence of free speech isn't it?

    Also, can I get another clarification here:

    deravarra wrote: »
    With every right there is a responsibility - and with that responsibility to accept the consequences of any action you may undertake which offends others - even if it doesnt offend you.Would I stand up for their right to be as beligerent and demeaning to the sensitivities of those who hold those places sacred and dear to them? Absolutely not! Would they deserve whatever action would befall them should they choose to express their "right" to insult? a big YES from me.

    Feel free to correct me if I've misinterpreted what you're saying but it seems to me that according to you, you wouldn't defend the right of a person to say something that offends someone else. Is that true in all cases or are there specific cases in which it is ok and in which it isn't? Should anything that is offensive to anyone be disallowed?

    And also, if someone does say something offensive, that they "deserve whatever action would befall them". I'm uncertain as to your meaning here. I think some of the confusion here stems from the fact that that statement reads as if you're implying "well, if they insult islam, then they'll get what they deserve when someone beats the crap out of them". If that was not your meaning, then I would appreciate a clarification on what it is exactly that you think they deserve for insulting islam.

    P.S. I'm not picking on islam here, I'm just using that because it's the subject of the thread.


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    #419
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    deravarra wrote: »
    :/ go away, have a coffee and relax for a bit.

    Show me where you think I said or inferred ANY of the above.

    Don't go putting a spin on what i said and making it out to be what you would pigeonhole me for... ok?

    I wont be "clarifying" this point over and over again. I made it quite clear on a number of occasions. No violence. And you still want clarification? duh

    Actually having a coffee as a I type.:)
    you wrote:
    If I went to a nightclub and started to insult a guy's girlfriend ... should I protest the right to free speech if I am being threatened with violence? No. I would be getting what I deserved!

    You, correct me if I'm wrong, seem to be of the opinion that retribution for something perceived to be an insult is deserved.


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    #420
    deravarra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,814 ✭✭✭deravarra


    Improbable wrote: »
    Would you not agree though that the right to freedom of speech is MOST important when what you have to say is something that the majority don't agree with. For example, I'm an atheist. If someone came along and started saying that atheists were all immoral and were bad people etc, I would be irritated, but I still wouldn't want to curtail what they're saying. That's the essence of free speech isn't it?

    Also, can I get another clarification here:




    Feel free to correct me if I've misinterpreted what you're saying but it seems to me that according to you, you wouldn't defend the right of a person to say something that offends someone else. Is that true in all cases or are there specific cases in which it is ok and in which it isn't? Should anything that is offensive to anyone be disallowed?

    And also, if someone does say something offensive, that they "deserve whatever action would befall them". I'm uncertain as to your meaning here. I think some of the confusion here stems from the fact that that statement reads as if you're implying "well, if they insult islam, then they'll get what they deserve when someone beats the crap out of them". If that was not your meaning, then I would appreciate a clarification on what it is exactly that you think they deserve for insulting islam.

    P.S. I'm not picking on islam here, I'm just using that because it's the subject of the thread.

    No more clarifications...

    you've dragged over, laboured and generally played around with words.

    You have no intention to debate.


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    #421
    deravarra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,814 ✭✭✭deravarra


    Malty_T wrote: »
    Actually having a coffee as a I type.:)



    You, correct me if I'm wrong, seem to be of the opinion that retribution for something perceived to be an insult is deserved.

    If your intention is to provoke, you shouldnt be crying when you get a thumping, should you?


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