Status of Engineers in Irish society

dilbert2 · 10-08-2011 06:36PM #1

Just read an interesting article there recently on the status of engineers and engineering in Britain (link below)

http://www.managementtoday.co.uk/news/409653/UK-Stop-doing-dirty-Britains-engineers/?DCMP=ILC-SEARCH

It got me wondering if it is the same in Ireland, do engineers have low status and are they underappreciated as in the UK? Do many people in Irish society confuse Engineers with boiler maintenance men and washing machine repairers, or do we in Ireland appreciate our Engineers, and the work they do for society as a whole? Are Engineers acknowledged in Ireland as they are such countries as Germany and Japan, or do they face the same stereotypes as they do in British society?

bradyle · 11-08-2011 06:43PM

I'm not sure when ever I tell people I did engineering in college I nearly always got a wow you must be very smart or something like it...although me being a girl might have added to their surprise. So in someways I think Ireland is more respectful of Engineers. However I think on the whole they're not that sure what we do, after telling someone I'm a mech eng I usually get either oh so you fix cars or oh whats that.

CatFromHue · 11-08-2011 07:57PM

Well engineering is very broad so I don't think you can expect everyone to know what you do. For example I studied aeronautical engineering, have worked as a mechanical engineer, I'm currently studying for a masters in computer aided mech eng, and am employed as a project engineer.

I was once asked by a work colleague what does the mech eng team do? He was a software engineer who worked less than 5m from me!

Yes I would say that we are confused with technicians with the title of engineer. It is more comforting for a customer to hear that an engineer is coming as opposed to a technician. Even though in most cases a technician is far better suited to fixing the problem.

Irish_Elect_Eng · 14-08-2011 09:48AM

Well anyone looking for fame, fortune and public adulation then engineering is not the career for you. However that is not to say that there is not a healthy level of respect out there for engineers.

It would be nice if the title of engineer was protected like that of doctor, but that is just like vanity plates, and not the key issue.

As an engineer, one of the things that I like most about our profession is that it is largely invisible, we are doing our jobs best when the public dues not even recognise our work.

TV signals are clear.
Bridges don't collapse.
Roads are safe.
Mobile phone signals are strong.
Car engines don't explode.
Food is frozen.
Etc....

Occasionally we get some positive press......

Miners get rescued.
Spacecraft get launched.
New type of football boots.

Or even come negative press...

Cars with no brakes.
Space shuttle disasters.
Oil Pipe Line

But in the background, thousands of engineers turn knowledge into products, processes, services and other practical applications with professionalism and pride in their profession.

The scientist or inventor may get credit for the discovery, but the engineer creates the application. The CEO or CFO might get credit for the profit, but the engineer gets the products out the door.

While not the best paid or respected members in many short-sighted companies, there are many other other companies that recognise their engineers as often the hardest employees to replace and treat them with the same respect as any other invaluable employee.

I am lucky to work in a job that I love, Engineering it is a profession that chooses you, and I honestly believe that you are either an engineer or you are not.

Brian CivilEng · 14-08-2011 06:40PM

I often wonder, is the increased life expectancy in the developed world due to doctors and better treatments, or is it simply down to the fact that when you turn on your tap clean water comes out, when you flush your toilet dirty water goes away. Engineers are responsible for keeping things working correctly, and as an engineer you probably save more lives over the course of your career than a doctor, even if you don't know it.

whydoibother? · 14-08-2011 06:53PM

As a non-engineer, who doesn't know very much about the profession, I would say they are respected. If someone tells me they are an engineer I think they would have to have brains and it's a practical and useful job that contributes a lot.

I wouldn't be well up on the various different branches of engineering and might not be entirely clear what exactly they all do, but I would associate the profession in general with practical and logical people.

As I say, I'm just giving my impressions as an average member of society with no particular knowledge - I'm open to correction.

I think there can sometimes be some quite makey-upey job titles that include the word "engineer" but don't refer to a person who has studied engineering and is qualified or has trained as an engineer. But I think that all the real branches of engineering are respected jobs.

Manach · 14-08-2011 07:01PM

To quote Kipling from "The Sons of Martha"
'They do not preach that their God will rouse them a little before the nuts work loose.'.

Dilbert75 · 14-08-2011 07:38PM

To be honest, the title of Engineer has been cheapened a little by the use of it in relation to technician jobs - Service Engineer, Sky Installation Engineer, etc. I guess that's why the Chartered Engineer title, which is protected, is seen by the profession as being an important distinction. I'm not sure there's widespread understanding of the title of Chartered Engineer though.

djpbarry · 15-08-2011 09:10AM

dilbert2 wrote: »

Are Engineers acknowledged in Ireland as they are such countries as Germany and Japan...

Based on my experiences in Germany, I would have to say no way and I’d assume the same with regard to Japan. The title of Engineer has been irreparably cheapened in Ireland, to the point where any monkey with a screwdriver calls themselves an engineer. It happens here in the UK too, as alluded to in the OP. For example, a few weeks back, a coffee machine in work was out of order and somebody stuck a note on the front to say that an engineer was en route to repair it – I’ve yet to find MATLAB’s coffee machine optimisation toolbox, but I’ll keep looking. That said, I think the term Engineer still means more here in the UK than it does in Ireland, probably due to the heritage of engineering and industrial achievement that Britain has.

I Heart Internet · 19-08-2011 04:06PM

OP or others might want to look at this recent book

It's a bit dry tbh - as with a lot of Henry Petroski's stuff but is a strong argument for greater respect for the engineering profession. If anything, he goes overboard....everything that works is claimed for engineering :rolleyes:.

In fact he thinks engineering and medicine are very similar (and distinct from science).

I was recently made a Chartered Engineer and tbh was pretty pleased with myself after 11 years of study/work. I can now confidently say I'm a proper engineer.

I would be in favour of protecting the Engineer title but i freely admit that is for purely selfish reasons.

partyatmygaff · 19-08-2011 04:11PM

Actual Engineers are respected. The problem is that when people hear engineer they include satellite installers, washing machine repairmen and the like in the mix. It's all to do with corporations pretending that their repairmen are actual Engineers.

As someone who isn't an Engineer but has an interest in Engineering, i'd say the title Engineer should be protected the same way that Doctor, Nurse, Pharmacist, Accountant, Solicitor, Barrister e.t.c. are protected.

Turbulent Bill · 19-08-2011 04:55PM

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

As an engineer, one of the things that I like most about our profession is that it is largely invisible, we are doing our jobs best when the public dues not even recognise our work.
TV signals are clear.

Bridges don't collapse.

Roads are safe.

Mobile phone signals are strong.

Car engines don't explode.

Food is frozen.

Etc....

Occasionally we get some positive press......
Miners get rescued.

Spacecraft get launched.

New type of football boots.

Or even come negative press...
Cars with no brakes.

Space shuttle disasters.

Oil Pipe Line

But in the background, thousands of engineers turn knowledge into products, processes, services and other practical applications with professionalism and pride in their profession.

The scientist or inventor may get credit for the discovery, but the engineer creates the application. The CEO or CFO might get credit for the profit, but the engineer gets the products out the door.

In a sense engineers are victims of their own success - new achievements (even stunning ones) are just seen as routine, doing-your-job tasks. For example, many people seem to think Moore's Law is a physical phenomenon, and thus we just have to wait around for computing power to increase as if by magic. In reality it takes huge effort, skill and creativity to keep the semiconductor industry on track, very little of which is acknowledged outside the industry. You can make the same comparison for cheap, safe air transport and many other fields.

It depends on context too. Engineers in the past made giant, very visible improvements in their countries (e.g., building the rail network in Britain), but what was dramatic then is routine now. There is still brilliant work being done, but reducing power consumption isn't as newsworthy as building a skyscraper.

Dardania · 20-08-2011 03:32PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Actual Engineers are respected. The problem is that when people hear engineer they include satellite installers, washing machine repairmen and the like in the mix. It's all to do with corporations pretending that their repairmen are actual Engineers.

As someone who isn't an Engineer but has an interest in Engineering, i'd say the title Engineer should be protected the same way that Doctor, Nurse, Pharmacist, Accountant, Solicitor, Barrister e.t.c. are protected.

How are these other professions names protected? Can Engineers Ireland not get that done for us?

21-08-2011 12:36AM

Dardania wrote: »

Can Engineers Ireland not get that done for us?

This is what Engineers Ireland offer as a solution.

Dardania · 21-08-2011 10:49AM

I'm working towards chartered status at the moment, however it's not the solution to the tittle "engineer" being devalued by every technician...

21-08-2011 11:21AM

Dardania wrote: »

I'm working towards chartered status at the moment

So am I

however it's not the solution to the tittle "engineer" being devalued by every technician...

In my view most of the people that "devalue" it are far from technicians.

I think that chartership is the nearest to a solution that you can hope to get.

Solair · 21-08-2011 11:28AM

I really don't think that there's the same level of ignorance of engineering in Ireland as there is in the UK.

It is very true that British, particularly Southern English, people who have never actually thought about it, assume that an engineer fixes cars. I've come across that quite a few times. Then again, if you ask the same people where meat comes from they'd be shocked if you told them it was from animals and assume it comes "from the supermarket"....

However, in Ireland it's kind of a popular / sought after career and I think most people are pretty aware of what it is all about.

Also, there is a lot of confusion about "Engineering" as a profession when it comes to the way it describes itself. Many other, non-academic, technical jobs described themselves as engineers in the past. There is continuing use of "we'll send an engineer" when you call Hotpoint when they mean a maintenance person.

It's a slightly confusing term for people who don't really have any familiarity with the profession.

cozzie55 · 21-08-2011 03:56PM

I think the biggest problem in ireland is that people have no idea what an engineer does. I don't think that we are disrespected as a profession. Maybe we aren't put in the same bracket as Doctors, pharmacists, solicitors, vets etc(but I think that has something to do with the points race ie engineering courses being lower than the above named and therefore are not as elite) but its not to say that we aren't respected

I'm in the middle of doing a masters in structural engineering myself and my own family don't even know what I do. My mother still assumes that i will be a builder when I'm finished. My brother assumes i'm able to work out flow rates and electrical circuits with out any problems just because I'm an engineer. I find even people in construction related courses don't even know what a structural engineer does.
The same for all other disciplines. When someone sayes they are a civil engineer a person assumes they physically build the roads and assume they are the fellas the see leaning over a shovel for most of the day.
Automotive engineers are car mechanics as are mechanical engineers. Electrical engineers are electricians. Aeronautical engineers are plane mechanics. And as for some of the more unusual disciplines people have no idea what they do ie chemical engineers and bioprocess engineers. I could keep naming disciplines here.

Also I don't think the status of chartered engineer means much to the outside world at all. Yes when applying for a job or talking to other engineers the title is important but to everyone else they have no idea of the differences between a chartered engineer and a normal engineer.

Royal Seahawk · 22-08-2011 07:39PM

abitofacomedian wrote: »

I often wonder, is the increased life expectancy in the developed world due to doctors and better treatments, or is it simply down to the fact that when you turn on your tap clean water comes out, when you flush your toilet dirty water goes away. Engineers are responsible for keeping things working correctly, and as an engineer you probably save more lives over the course of your career than a doctor, even if you don't know it.

I think you're confusing engineers with plumbers there.

partyatmygaff · 22-08-2011 08:07PM

Royal Seahawk wrote: »

I think you're confusing engineers with plumbers there.

Plumbers didn't design modern sewage systems and water treatment facilities. They just maintain them.

The exact same way that TV repairmen don't design TVs. They fix them according to guidelines written up by the engineers who designed them.

Royal Seahawk · 22-08-2011 09:22PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Plumbers didn't design modern sewage systems and water treatment facilities. They just maintain them.

The exact same way that TV repairmen don't design TVs. They fix them according to guidelines written up by the engineers who designed them.

Not only do plumbers maintain sewage and water systems thay also install them and often have input or indeed total control over their design. Surely they deserve the same if not more credit than the engineer.

Dardania · 22-08-2011 09:49PM

I think cozzie55 hit upon the crux of the title issue of a chartered engineer being a protected title whereas anyone can call themselves (or be called, as maintenance companies are wont to) engineers:

cozzie55 wrote:

Also I don't think the status of chartered engineer means much to the outside world at all. Yes when applying for a job or talking to other engineers the title is important but to everyone else they have no idea of the differences between a chartered engineer and a normal engineer.

And it seems accountants in the UK have a similar predicament to us:

http://www.accountingweb.co.uk/blogs/rlewisaw/can-you-call-yourself-professional

It's not so much the fact that the title isn't protected - it's that when non engineers call themselves as such, it devalues our "brand" by their poor association with us...

Royal Seahawk wrote: »

Not only do plumbers maintain sewage and water systems thay also install them and often have input or indeed total control over their design. Surely they deserve the same if not more credit than the engineer.

A good plumber can of course design a system, and optimise it to achieve the maximum throughput from it. Just as a good engineer can install a drainage system. However, if someone is good with their hands and can maintain a clear vision for achieving a great design they would be in the minority, and very valuable

Red Alert · 23-08-2011 11:55PM

The importance of Chartered status differs among different engineering disciplines: it seems to be more relevant to civil & mechanical/infrastructural engineers than electronic/electrical engineers. It's not on my horizon at the moment.

Musicman2006 · 28-08-2011 09:03AM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Surely they deserve the same if not more redit than the engineer.

Ah for fu(k sake. So should a good builder get more credit than the engineer because a building stands up by luck rather than design? I know many builders over the years who have tried to 'take control over the design' which usually involves a phonecall where they tell me (im a chartered structural engineer) that they've changed timber size because the specified ones were hard to get "but they should be grand...". Needless to say the timbers come back out and the idiot goes to get the proper size.

But, we're leading into a different topic now regarding the quality of irish builders...dont get me started!! :-)

Shiny · 28-08-2011 11:43AM

Red Alert wrote: »

The importance of Chartered status differs among different engineering disciplines: it seems to be more relevant to civil & mechanical/infrastructural engineers than electronic/electrical engineers. It's not on my horizon at the moment.

Completely agree with this. I have never even heard of a chartered electronic engineer and the only reason I can see the need for one would to be to get some design signed off. I'm just going to go the PhD route instead to attract a lifetime of quips about not being a 'real' doctor.

partyatmygaff · 28-08-2011 08:35PM

Musicman2006 wrote: »

Ah for fu(k sake. So should a good builder get more credit than the engineer because a building stands up by luck rather than design? I know many builders over the years who have tried to 'take control over the design' which usually involves a phonecall where they tell me (im a chartered structural engineer) that they've changed timber size because the specified ones were hard to get "but they should be grand...". Needless to say the timbers come back out and the idiot goes to get the proper size.

But, we're leading into a different topic now regarding the quality of irish builders...dont get me started!! :-)

I think you've misquoted me. I was the one saying that originally said Engineers are the ones that deserve most of the credit for successful designs.

delta_xray · 28-08-2011 08:54PM

When I tell people that my degree is in Aeronautical Engineering, the most common replies I get are "so you're going to fix planes then?", or even "so you're going to be a pilot then?". When I say that one of the main aspects of Aeronautical Engineering is Aircraft / Aircraft Component Design there is that little eureka moment that happens in the other person as they realise that someone actually has to design the Boeing or Airbus that they regularly fly in.

Because of this when people ask me what I do, or what I study, I tend to say Engineering rather than Aeronautical Engineering. Those who have an appreciation of Engineering will ask and those who dont wont.

Going back to the point someone made earlier about family not knowing what you do, I found myself in the same position when I was working for a certain European aircraft manufacturer. Many people would ask "so what were you doing out there?" and well as any engineer knows to explain fully their job takes more than a little detail and time I think. Again, I found I was simplifing matters just to explain what it was I did.

In my opinion, I think Engineers are just taken for granted, in a manner like the way the iPhone "knows" to rotate the screen when you turn the phone - "it just happens".

02-09-2011 03:27PM

Shiny wrote: »

I have never even heard of a chartered electronic engineer and the only reason I can see the need for one would to be to get some design signed off.

Genuinely quite surprised and saddened to hear you say this, different industry backgrounds I guess.

Brian CivilEng · 05-09-2011 12:49AM

Royal Seahawk wrote: »

Not only do plumbers maintain sewage and water systems thay also install them and often have input or indeed total control over their design. Surely they deserve the same if not more credit than the engineer.

Do plumbers ensure that clean water arrives into the plumbing system, and that once the waste water leaves your house it is disposed of in a safe and clean manner.

Think we just identified why engineers are not respected. If we do a good job people don't think the job needed to be done in the first place.

Royal Seahawk · 06-09-2011 02:42PM

abitofacomedian wrote: »

Do plumbers ensure that clean water arrives into the plumbing system, and that once the waste water leaves your house it is disposed of in a safe and clean manner.

Think we just identified why engineers are not respected. If we do a good job people don't think the job needed to be done in the first place.

Yes, they do. Plumbers working for local councils fit and clean large scale filters on main water pipes and also check chlorine levels on a daily basis.

breadmonkey · 06-09-2011 03:29PM

Royal Seahawk wrote: »

Yes, they do. Plumbers working for local councils fit and clean large scale filters on main water pipes and also check chlorine levels on a daily basis.

Right but do they design the filters?

Status of Engineers in Irish society

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