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Blood of the travellers

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    One thing that wasnt mentioned was the travellers and boxing and there seems to be a tradition for bare knuckle boxing.

    I saw Liam Fay's tv review in the Sunday Times and while he mentioned criminality an issue that comes up again is feuds and almost pitched battles.

    So how true us this and how is "society" organised and are their families and clans ?

    Edit - faction fighting in the general population died out in the 19th century
    Faction Fighting

    OK, they had it tough. But at least they had family, right? Well, yes and no. You know that shillelagh, the Irish blackthorn walking stick which jolly leprechauns used when strolling down country lanes - - - well it actually was a murderous weapon used in highly structured, regularly scheduled fights between families, gangs, communities, septs, tribes , or whatever, in which fights to the death were extremely common occurrences and were participated in by both men and women

    "A study of text-book Irish history will reveal little evidence of clans in Ireland in modern times. Like many of our traditions, the clans' idea was kept alive among the ordinary people and was of little interest to academics who ignored it or failed to recognize its existence. The glamour of the clans survived in the folk memory, focusing on faction fighters like Sean Mor Hartnett who is reputed to have squeezed water out of the head of a blackthorn that had been seasoning for seven years --- a boast worthy of Fionn or Queen Maeve

    "As the factions faced one another in lines of battle, some distance apart, the captains advanced into the narrow strip of no-man's -land between them, brandishing their [weapons] and otherwise taunting and insulting their enemies . . . The captains might advance almost to the enemy lines, then wheel left or right, prancing up and down the lines and generally behaving in a most provocative manner. This ritual . . . might last for a quarter hour or longer, to the accom-paniment of the most extraordinary exchange of language by the captains. . . ." (Irish Roots, 1993 Number 3)

    "In a party fight, a prophetic sense of danger hangs, as it were, over the crowd - - - the very air is loaded with apprehension; and the vengeance burst is preceded by a close, thick darkness, almost sulphury, that is more terrifical than the conflict itself, through clearly less dangerous and fatal. The scowl of the opposing par-ties, the blanched cheeks, the knit brows, and the grinding teeth, not pretermitting the deadly gleams that shoot from their kindled eyes, are ornaments which a plain battle between factions cannot boast. . . .

    A faction fight has none of this tragic and somber element. The atmosphere is light and comic: Paddy's at home here, all song, dance, good-humor and affection . . . he tosses his hat in the air, in the height of mirth . . . He is in fact, while under the influence of this heavily afflatus, in love with every one, man, woman, and child. If he meets his sweetheart, he will give here a kiss and a hug, and that with double kindness, because he is on his way to thrash her father or brother. . To be sure, skulls and bones are broken, and lives lost; but they are lost in pleasant fighting - they are the consequences of the sport, the beauty of which consists in breaking as many heads as you can." (Daniel J. Casey & Robert E. Rhodes, Views of Irish Peasantry, p. 137).

    "Faction fighting was a phenomenon unique to nineteenth century Ireland. Factions were armies of country people, numbering hundreds or even thou-sands, armed with sticks and stones, and, occasionally, with swords and guns. Their battle grounds were fair greens, market places, race courses and frequently streets of towns and villages. Many people were killed and scores wounded in the most famous encounters. The fighting was first reported in 1805 in Tipperary and quickly spread to all parts of the country except the North-East. No fair, market, pattern-day or any public gathering was complete without its faction fight. In 1836 alone, over 100 faction fights were reported in a single county -- Tipperary.

    In 1825 a faction fight took place at Shanagolden, County Limerick -- the O'Briens and the MacMahons on one side, the Griffins and Sheehans on the other. The encounter involved an estimated 500 combatants. After the preliminary taunts and insults the factions charged. The leaders, wielding heavy blackthorn sticks, fought in single combat until both lay dead. The cause of the fight was a jostling of one another by the leaders, Kennedy O'Brien and John Sheehan, at a fair earlier in the year.

    The granddaddy of all faction fights took place on June 24, 1834, the Feast Day of St. John the Baptist, a Holy Day which traditionally served to commemorate the occurrence of the longest day of the year, when 3,000 participants, the Coolens on one side, with Lawlors, Blacks and Mulvihills on the other, went up against each other at Ballyveigh Strand in County Kerry. When the bleeding stopped, 200 were dead. Sure and you bet that they talked about that one for a long time.

    Other reasons for faction fights might be conflicts over non-payment of dowries, fights over succession to property, long-standing grudges or just plain orneriness.

    Fights took place between parishes, baronies and gangs, but more significantly, between families. The Keeraghs, Graces, Gows, Hickeys, Hogans, Bawns, Mulvihills, Collinses, Macks, Hartnetts, and McInirys were all well-known factions. The Reaskawallagh faction was nearly all Ryans and took their name from a townland in the parish of Doon where the Ryan chieftains had lived for

    http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlker/faction.html

    The allusions to exotic, oriental Romanies dominated newspaper coverage of
    Travellers at Cahirmee in July, but romance did not entirely obscure Traveller’s
    Irishness, which was alluded to in references to red-haired tinkers. The ‘gingerheaded
    travelling men’ and ‘the red women of the clans’ who congregated at
    Cahirmee were observed a month later at Puck Fair in Killorglan; the ‘red heads
    of the tinkers’ appear to have been intimately associated with summer fairs.79 In
    popular tradition, those with red hair were believed to have fiery, ungovernable
    tempers and Travellers’ behaviour at fairs apparently confirmed this belief.
    Travellers were known for fighting on a fair day, but this did not worry settled

    people, who did not participate. A respondent to the Irish Folklore
    Commission’s 1952 questionnaire wrote that ‘The tinkers’ free fights was a
    particular feature of the fair and one of the most spectacular.’80 It was a keenly
    watched ‘blood sport’ for those who did not take part.81 The readiness with
    which fights were apparently forgotten was noted by settled people, who used
    the phrase ‘like the tinkers’ of people who quarrelled frequently but remained
    friends.82 Of course, Travellers were not the only people who fought at fairs;
    O’Connor noted ‘Routinely too, fair day had a court sequel.’83 On a fair day,
    fights were as much part of the occasion as a carefully organised and staged
    caravan parade.
    http://www.c-s-p.org/flyers/9781847187642-sample.pdf


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    I posted somewhere (can't remember where) about faction fighting. As you say, it died out in the 19th century as a common enough activity. However, it persisted in some of the more remote parts of Connemara well into the 20th century, albeit on a smaller scale. I used to enjoy listening to stories about it from a postman there who had witnessed some faction fights in his youth.
    A family by the name of King was legendary. Fights usually took place at crossroads or sometimes bridges because these were no man's lands. The defender would draw a circle in the dust with his shillelagh and issue the challenge "Let no man drive me out of here". Blows to the head and torso were fine, blows to the legs were considered foul. I regret not having asked who the referee was.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    TG4 did an interesting program on it a while ago called na chead fight club. The TG4 player might still have it, cant see it in work though


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I read somewhere recently of a guy who made a documentary on it.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/a-bareknuckle-bovver-435514.html

    Antropologists would probably say that society can move at different speeds timewise and that eventually such practices die out as the society becomes more sophisticated.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    CDfm wrote: »
    I read somewhere recently of a guy who made a documentary on it.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/a-bareknuckle-bovver-435514.html

    Antropologists would probably say that society can move at different speeds timewise and that eventually such practices die out as the society becomes more sophisticated.

    Yes indeed. I seem to remember that the McDonoughs were arch rivals of the Kings - but my memory might not be that accurate :(


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Both are great west of Ireland names. Look at the distrubition of "King" on this map:
    King.png

    King in this context is a native Irish name. It been the same name as Conroy (Ó Conaire) just been Anglicised as King.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Both are great west of Ireland names. Look at the distrubition of "King" on this map:
    King.png

    King in this context is a native Irish name. It been the same name as Conroy (Ó Conaire) just been Anglicised as King.

    Omg that map is perfect and It's correct And everything were did you get it And Is it available for every surname?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    owenc wrote: »
    Omg that map is perfect and It's correct And everything were did you get it And Is it available for every surname?

    http://www.celticfamilymaps.com/

    However there is only a certain number of names included from Ireland. Obviously a work in progress.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Ditch


    dubhthach wrote: »


    " The data is sourced from UK, Manx and Irish telephone directories. "

    Oh ..... So; Would that not rather tie the data down to about a ' 70's - 90's ' sort of time frame?

    And, would there not be a further 'restriction', within that frame. Due to the 'social' strata which would have owned / wanted to own " Land Lines " in that relatively short period?

    Probably a great little snap shot of where " Celtic Names " were cropping up then. But; To do with tracking Travellers ....? :confused:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Ditch wrote: »
    " The data is sourced from UK, Manx and Irish telephone directories. "

    Oh ..... So; Would that not rather tie the data down to about a ' 70's - 90's ' sort of time frame?

    And, would there not be a further 'restriction', within that frame. Due to the 'social' strata which would have owned / wanted to own " Land Lines " in that relatively short period?

    Probably a great little snap shot of where " Celtic Names " were cropping up then. But; To do with tracking Travellers ....? :confused:

    Yes the Site is not very accurate at times I was looking at the smiths and there were far less of them here than the kings that does not work! Because there's way more smiths here than kings infect I'd go so far to say its I'n the top 50th names! It's good for England though as it pinpointed the origin to the midlands which Is correct well for mines ..


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Well it's not posting with regards to numbers but to do with popularity in certain telephone sectors. Obviously you have smiths everywhere but they are at a lower overall percentage of total population of an area. Darker shade of red represents higher percentage of overall population in that phone district.

    Intersting article regarding using Telephone directories:
    http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/studies/surnames.pdf

    As to why I posted the link it was because OwenC asked about it the map of King which I posted when talking bout faction fighting between them and McDonoughs both great West of Ireland names. McDonough been originally based in South Sligo and are a branch of the McDermots and part of the wider Uí Briúin Aí (headed by the O'Connors) of the Connachta.

    In general the travellers have native Irish surnames, though Francie is abit of an exception with his Cambro-Norman surname (Barrett) which however interesting enough held land in Mayo.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    dubhthach wrote: »

    In general the travellers have native Irish surnames, though Francie is abit of an exception with his Cambro-Norman surname (Barrett) which however interesting enough held land in Mayo.

    Ward? Moorehouse?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    slowburner wrote: »
    Ward? Moorehouse?

    Ward = Mac an Bhaird (son of the poet) - broad BH (ḃ) is pronunced as W in Irish. Of course the Ward who tested in the program came back as M222+ which shows he's of Connachta origin -- Uí Néill and other other Connachta dynastical groups tend to be M222+

    Moorehouse though is an "Anglo-Saxon" name from what I can see.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    I had an ill-informed notion that Ward was of Norman origin, for some reason.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    slowburner wrote: »
    I had an ill-informed notion that Ward was of Norman origin, for some reason.

    Well it wouldn't surprise me if "Ward" in England is of Anglo-Norman origin. One of the things that happened in Ireland is alot of Irish surnames have been conflated with pre-existing "English" surnames during the process of Anglicisation. For example a lot of Smiths in Ireland are actually "Mac an Ghabhan" (son of the smith) this was Anglicised as McGowan or directly translated to Smith.

    There's a name in Mayo that for eample where the Irish version is similiar to the word for "burnt" (Dóite) as a result it was anglisced as Burns!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    I am not sure if Moorehouse is a surname currently associated with travellers. It may have been in the past, but to the best of my knowledge, they are 'settled' nowadays.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    dubhthach wrote: »
    In general though the old "Galway town" accent no longer exists
    I still hear the accent around but not as much as before,you have to speak to a shanner or a herrinchoker to hear it now.Everybody now seems to speak with the same accent, a flat monotone drawl.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    kabakuyu wrote: »
    I still hear the accent around but not as much as before,you have to speak to a shanner or a herrinchoker to hear it now.Everybody now seems to speak with the same accent, a flat monotone drawl.

    Well in general Hiberno-English accents are been consumed by what is know as "New Dublin" the resultant accent has been termed as "Supraregional Irish-English", basically it's a fairly neutral Irish accent (to a foreign ear) that heavily influenced by what you hear on RTÉ

    http://dialectblog.com/2011/04/10/supraregional-irish-english/ (Dialectblog is a great site)

    In general Hiberno-English of today is very different from that of 100 years ago let alone from before the famine. One reason why the "Playboy of Western World" caused a riot in Dublin, Synge had based their speech pattern on that of people in the west who had only started speaking english the previous generation. To the Dublin crowd it sounded like a mockery of how Irish people spoke, result: Riot


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Well in general Hiberno-English accents are been consumed by what is know as "New Dublin" the resultant accent has been termed as "Supraregional Irish-English", basically it's a fairly neutral Irish accent (to a foreign ear) that heavily influenced by what you hear on RTÉ

    http://dialectblog.com/2011/04/10/supraregional-irish-english/ (Dialectblog is a great site)

    In general Hiberno-English of today is very different from that of 100 years ago let alone from before the famine. One reason why the "Playboy of Western World" caused a riot in Dublin, Synge had based their speech pattern on that of people in the west who had only started speaking english the previous generation. To the Dublin crowd it sounded like a mockery of how Irish people spoke, result: Riot
    I love the loftiness of that term "Supraregional Irish English". Great Link.

    I remember being at a funeral in Galway about 10 or 12 years ago. The eulogies were read by some local teenage girls. Their accents were indistinguishable from those you would hear around Dundrum shopping centre today.
    The "Dart or Dort accent" is a misnomer. It far exceeds the catchment of the Dart and the Luas; it is without doubt pan-national now. In fact it is across the pond too.
    I am convinced that SIE arose simultaneously with cable television and the introduction specifically of MTV (early '80's?). The new dialect is undoubtedly a move towards Americana.
    Would a thread devoted to this subject be worthwhile?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    slowburner wrote: »
    I love the loftiness of that term "Supraregional Irish English". Great Link.

    I remember being at a funeral in Galway about 10 or 12 years ago. The eulogies were read by some local teenage girls. Their accents were indistinguishable from those you would hear around Dundrum shopping centre today.
    The "Dart or Dort accent" is a misnomer. It far exceeds the catchment of the Dart and the Luas; it is without doubt pan-national now. In fact it is across the pond too.
    I am convinced that SIE arose simultaneously with cable television and the introduction specifically of MTV (early '80's?). The new dialect is undoubtedly a move towards Americana.
    Would a thread devoted to this subject be worthwhile?

    Well people mention American-english but other then similiar R there's not much in similarity (New-Dublin R is stronger then american R), of course the traditional Irish-R is actually from the Irish language and was never a feature of any version of English. most of the features are actually "reactions" to features of non-prestige Hiberno-English accents (Hypercorrection).

    "New-Dublin" of course was first noticed in the early 70's, it's rise is actually not driven by likes of MTV but by RTÉ and the start of TV in Ireland in 1961. The core features were probably present in "South Dublin" since before independence.

    Regarding teenager girls a recent study found that young women are most likely to adapt features of it. The found teenagers in Kerry and Cavan using features of it. Boys/young men are more conservative when it comes to accents.

    Dublin: A Tale of Two Accents
    http://dialectblog.com/2011/02/02/dublin-a-tale-of-two-accents/

    "New Dublin" is an outgrowth of "middle class" Dublin accent talked about here, though going even further away (via disassociation) from features of "Local Dublin" (Liberties/inner city acccent)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    I miss the the Galway town accent,the auld stock are nearly all gone,you could tell the small difference between different areas of the town,I rememer an old neighbour(city center) of mine describing our accents as an "under the clock" accent,he could tell where you lived in Galway by your accent,but then he also knew everybody in the town.Btw thanks for the links and info.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Well people mention American-english but other then similiar R there's not much in similarity (New-Dublin R is stronger then american R), of course the traditional Irish-R is actually from the Irish language and was never a feature of any version of English. most of the features are actually "reactions" to features of non-prestige Hiberno-English accents (Hypercorrection).

    "New-Dublin" of course was first noticed in the early 70's, it's rise is actually not driven by likes of MTV but by RTÉ and the start of TV in Ireland in 1961. The core features were probably present in "South Dublin" since before independence.

    Regarding teenager girls a recent study found that young women are most likely to adapt features of it. The found teenagers in Kerry and Cavan using features of it. Boys/young men are more conservative when it comes to accents.

    Dublin: A Tale of Two Accents
    http://dialectblog.com/2011/02/02/dublin-a-tale-of-two-accents/

    "New Dublin" is an outgrowth of "middle class" Dublin accent talked about here, though going even further away (via disassociation) from features of "Local Dublin" (Liberties/inner city acccent)

    You forgot to mention the "Raiyndabaiyt" of AA Roadwatch fame:D.
    That 'ou' is worth a discussion in itself.
    Not to mention the 'o' which has become 'eo'.
    I am guilty of being a Dublin saiythsider myself through the era you mention - and I definitely remember hearing a change in accents amongst my juniors when MTV hit these shores.
    It was a rapid change - maybe over two years or so.
    Wasn't the aim of RTE broadcasters to aim for "received pronunciation" - a kind of neutral, clear, easily understood accent?
    How did listening to RTE give these people an American twang and intonation? There is probably a term for that irritating intonation where statements are given the form of questions.
    On the subject of 'R'. When I worked in a terribly posh place in London, the boys used to take the mickey out of the way I would say 'hard', for example. I used to slag them back because they couldn't pronounce 'r' - they would say 'hahd'. They would also slag my pronunciation of 's' - I used to comfort myself by believing that my pronunciation of the letter was the product of an Irish language which had a rich heritage and a multitude of nuances on pronunciations of 's' and indeed 't' (Teacht, for example).

    The phenomenon of two distinct, possibly class related accents in Dublin (mentioned in the link above) is fascinating. Personally, I suspect that it is directly related to third level education. Go to college - lose the accent.

    The other point mentioned in the blog is the possible relationship between the old Dublin accent (from the Liberties for example) and early Modern English.
    The author hears a Dublin accent as practically incomprehensible - the old Dublin accent (probably extinct) although strong, was remarkable for its clarity.
    I hope the scholarly Enkidu sees this, I'll give him a heads up in the linguistic & etymology forum:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,108 ✭✭✭Jellybaby1


    Sorry to interrupt everyone, this is a fascinating thread and this is my first post in here. Just wanted to say in the 70's I stopped my children from watching Bosco on RTE because of the dreadful accent the puppet used! I switched the TV off when I heard my youngsters saying 'rishe' instead of 'right'. I had never heard that accent before and couldn't think where on earth it had come from!

    P.S. I thought Brad Pitt's portrayal of a traveller in Snatch, was excellent, for an American.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    You're not interrupting :)
    So that's another vote for the origin of the accent in the '70's then. Perhaps I had the accent so I was unable to hear it ( I heope not).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,108 ✭✭✭Jellybaby1


    Since then, the 'rishe' has become 'roish' - holy cow! :confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Ditch


    Jellybaby1 wrote: »
    P.S. I thought Brad Pitt's portrayal of a traveller in Snatch, was excellent, for an American.


    But, did ye not find the 'Huddling together to spout complete and utter gibberish' before pronouncing; " That's Pikey! " a bit wearing?

    Same thing with an episode of " The Sweeney " ~ a London based cops and robbers serial. 'Gypsys' portrayed as 'talking' complete garble.

    Yet, if a 'film' portrays, say, French or German speakers? Ye can bet ye life They don't just get away with burbling away with what ever comes out of their heads as the cameras expensively roll.


    Just to make it clear how I'm Not trying to shift this thread to the Films board: My point is; It's a lack of respect. " Sure, it's only knacker yak. Brad. Just make it up. The lads'll join in. Just laugh on cue. "

    " Just make it up. " Surely a slippery slope for filmed presentations of 'Travellers' :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,108 ✭✭✭Jellybaby1


    A group of traveller ladies passed me by in the shopping centre last weekend - got to be honest, couldn't understand one word they said! I believe Pitt was trained by an Irish coach in the accent but I don't know who that was. Yes movies show the Irish in a bad light, maybe that's because we've managed to show ourselves that way more than any other. It's unfortunate and upsetting for those of us who don't behave like that, but a lot of the times its true.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    My father comes from an area in wexford where there is a dialect of old english "yola" and there are still hymns sung in it. And you had a lot of regional accents.

    On "pav's" , around 20 years back in Bucks I came accross a guy who i thought had an Irish accent (sort of waterford/wexford) and he told me he was born in the UK 4th generation in Oxford.

    so i do wonder how they are presented in the census forms etc from the period and if we can learn anything there.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    dubhthach wrote: »
    most of the features are actually "reactions" to features of non-prestige Hiberno-English accents (Hypercorrection).
    One good example of that is the fear of dropping aitches is so strong they're added were not required. EG HightH Yep it had an aitch at the end going way back but this is more recent

    "New-Dublin" of course was first noticed in the early 70's, it's rise is actually not driven by likes of MTV but by RTÉ and the start of TV in Ireland in 1961.
    It's certainly been around since the 70's alright. Someone like Bob Geldof certainly has the sniff of it and he didn't grow up in the 80's. IMHO I'd add another influence, the move from the rural areas to the city and that populations desire to both fit in and more to the point advance. Ditto for working class Dubliners on the up in the 60's though less so IME. Over the years if I had a quid for every time I met a womans(less so a mans) parents expecting to hear her south Dublin accent only to get a rural accent my bank balance would be more healthy. I only recall one example where the parents had a strong working class Dublin accent. Dublin had a large population of elocution teachers going way back. My mother (in her mid 70's) recalls many of her friends attending them and they had rural parents. I knew people, again from a rural(with the odd inner city Dublin) background who sent their daughters(never their sons) to elocution lessons and that's as recent as the late 70's early 80's.
    The core features were probably present in "South Dublin" since before independence.
    +1. My fathers family would have been very middle class south Dublin and their accents show some of the features alright. Though fewer if any overcorrections I can recall from the older members. One diff I noted as a kid(odd kid I was:)) was in the word Guardian. My mates would tend to say Garjan, where my fathers family pronounced the D(they called me on it once or twice). They certainly didn't sound like received English speakers though and defo no American "twang". Clearly an Irish and Dublin accent, with a clear "lilt" to it but a little flatter and more clarity of diction than the average Dublin accent(my mothers family would have been more the average). If you mixed say George Bernard Shaw with a side order of Gay Byrne kinda thing. Of more current speakers someone like Ryan Tubridy would sound similar to my ears.

    In my lifetime while I noticed the birth of the Dort accent almost to the extreme of unconscious self parody, the "american" twang to my ears is much more recent. Like ten years recent. Only a week ago I was in a shop and overheard a convo between two young girls(13/14) and it was so odd and forced an accent. The more they talked and the more exited they became the more the appeared to be outdoing each other nasally and the more odd it became.
    Regarding teenager girls a recent study found that young women are most likely to adapt features of it. The found teenagers in Kerry and Cavan using features of it. Boys/young men are more conservative when it comes to accents.
    The likely explanation being that women tend to be more socially(and geographically) mobile than men and if an accent helps that mobility they'll absorb and use that?

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    The Guardian/Garjan thing is classic Hiberno-English feature. It's probably a reflection of "Slender D" in the Irish language. It's one of those features that are disappearing due to Hyper-Correction. Obviously "Local-Dublin" has other features that inherited from Irish. In general Hiberno-English is becoming more mainstream in terms of English phonology eg. you are seeing less influence from the Irish language.

    As an aside I was listening to the Radio this morning and they played a Weather radio broadcast from 1939 (3 months before start of war). The presenter accent hardly sounded Irish at all. Clear influence form RP etc. I recall hearing that when RTÉ started in the 1960's that there was a woman in charge of Elocution who wouldn't allow TV presenters unless the spoke with specific accent (Rathmines/South Dublin influenced)


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