Should traffic laws be further enforced for cyclists?

monument · 04-08-2011 03:42PM

Just to be clear: As always I'm not saying that misbehaving cyclists should not behave better (they should) or that there should be better enforcement (there should be), I'm just saying that cyclists don't break the law any more than others or at least not much more.

coolbeans · 04-08-2011 03:44PM

el tonto wrote: »

Do you think they'd get the same results on an average stretch of road?

In urban areas, yes.

dearg lady · 04-08-2011 03:44PM

Lumen wrote: »

For me, it's the blasting through pedestrian lights that is the most annoying, as it makes wandering around the city more stressful. Bikes are supposed to make our environment more, not less pleasant.

Walking is something you're supposed to be able to do without maintaining a knife-edge concentration level. By and large, green man should mean "walk once the traffic has stopped", not "wait for the traffic to stop, then proceed gingerly whilst constantly scanning all incoming junctions for kamikaze cyclists".

if there are no pedestrians around, i see no problem with a cyclist breaking a red pedestrian light. However, if there are pedestrians around, then it's one of my pet hates. Equally tho, I don't know if you've ever cycled through Dublin City centre, but the amount of peds who wander out in front of you is ridiculous!

Chips Lovell · 04-08-2011 03:47PM

Lumen wrote: »

For me, it's the blasting through pedestrian lights that is the most annoying, as it makes wandering around the city more stressful. Bikes are supposed to make our environment more, not less pleasant.

Yes, my pet hate is idiotic hipsters who are too cool to ride with brakes and end up barrelling through every ped crossing because they can't stop on time.

Lumen · 04-08-2011 03:48PM

el tonto wrote: »

Yes, my pet hate is idiotic hipsters who are too cool to ride with brakes and end up barrelling through every ped cross because they can't stop on time.

These don't venture north of the Liffey. It's a southside affectation.

monument · 04-08-2011 03:51PM

el tonto wrote: »

In fairness that study was done on one of the lowest and most controversial speed limits in the country. Do you think they'd get the same results on an average stretch of road?

It does not matter how slow or controversial it is.

And that's one of my central points people will often break the laws they think as unimportant or silly -- for cyclists it's red lights, cycling on footpaths, and not using their arms to indicate; for motorists it's breaking orange lights or stop lines or "just going a bit over the limit" where they think it's ok to do so.

But to answer your question anyway: the results would vary widely depending on the road, time of day, etc. A bulk of motorists on motorways also break lower limits -- even at roadworks -- as a matter of course.

Davyhal · 04-08-2011 03:52PM

Is it not a bit of a childish arguments to say "Well motorists break more laws than we do!"... Reminds me of a 4 year old being scolded for breaking a glass replying with "Well my brother broke the TV"... Don't compare yourselves to other modes of transport or to other cyclists, just take it upon yourself not to break the law. These are the rules of the road and abide by them!

Chips Lovell · 04-08-2011 03:52PM

dearg lady wrote: »

if there are no pedestrians around, i see no problem with a cyclist breaking a red pedestrian light.

Why are you special just because you're on a bike? Would you do the same in your car?

coolbeans · 04-08-2011 03:52PM

dearg lady wrote: »

if there are no pedestrians around, i see no problem with a cyclist breaking a red pedestrian light. However, if there are pedestrians around, then it's one of my pet hates. Equally tho, I don't know if you've ever cycled through Dublin City centre, but the amount of peds who wander out in front of you is ridiculous!

While I agree with you in principle, the law isn't there to be interpreted. Also as idiotic as many peds can be I do think that the onus should be on cyclists to avoid them just as it is with cars re cyclists.

Chips Lovell · 04-08-2011 03:53PM

monument wrote: »

It does not matter how slow or controversial it is.

Is it not selective sampling though? Picking one area where motorists are most likely to break the speed limit

SD7792 · 04-08-2011 03:53PM

monument wrote: »

One survey that 90% of car were breaking the 30km zone in the city centre

In fairness, I'd say 90% of cyclists break that 30km speed limit aswell :P

Chips Lovell · 04-08-2011 03:54PM

SD7792 wrote: »

In fairness, I'd say 90% of cyclists break that 30km speed limit aswell :P

Speed limits don't apply to bikes.

Lumen · 04-08-2011 03:54PM

SD7792 wrote: »

In fairness, I'd say 90% of cyclists break that 30km speed limit aswell :P

There are no speed limits for cyclists.

TinyExplosions · 04-08-2011 03:56PM

Cyclists don't have speed limits

dearg lady · 04-08-2011 03:58PM

Davyhal wrote: »

Is it not a bit of a childish arguments to say "Well motorists break more laws than we do!"... Reminds me of a 4 year old being scolded for breaking a glass replying with "Well my brother broke the TV"... Don't compare yourselves to other modes of transport or to other cyclists, just take it upon yourself not to break the law. These are the rules of the road and abide by them!

I don't think anyone has actually said motorists break more laws than cyclists. Just clarifying that both groups do break laws.

el tonto wrote: »

Why are you special just because you're on a bike? Would you do the same in your car?

As I said in an earlier post I think cyclists should have a different set of rules than motorists. I don't think I'm 'special', just acknowledging the fact that bikes and cars are different.

coolbeans wrote: »

While I agree with you in principle, the law isn't there to be interpreted. Also as idiotic as many peds can be I do think that the onus should be on cyclists to avoid them just as it is with cars re cyclists.

I do agree with the second bit, the onus is on me to avoid pedestrians when I;'m on my bike, no matter how mad they make me!

but can't agree with the first bit. While I understand what you're saying, i won't follow any ridiculous laws just because it's the law.

coolbeans · 04-08-2011 03:59PM

Davyhal wrote: »

Is it not a bit of a childish arguments to say "Well motorists break more laws than we do!"... Reminds me of a 4 year old being scolded for breaking a glass replying with "Well my brother broke the TV"... Don't compare yourselves to other modes of transport or to other cyclists, just take it upon yourself not to break the law. These are the rules of the road and abide by them!

If you read carefully, I think you'll find the point being made is that a crackdown on cyclists exclusively would be unhelpful especially as all road users, IMO, seem to habitually break the rules.

Coronal · 04-08-2011 03:59PM

el tonto wrote: »

Is it not selective sampling though? Picking one area where motorists are most likely to break the speed limit

Yes, but I still think it's pretty common. Maybe only by a few percent of the speed limit on main roads, but one sees it a lot around Roscommon town and small country roads.

SD7792 · 04-08-2011 04:01PM

el tonto wrote: »

Speed limits don't apply to bikes.

Lumen wrote: »

There are no speed limits for cyclists.

Yeah I know but what I'm saying is that if bikes can easily reach that speed then its obvious that many cars are going to be breaking the limit, add to that the fact that it was never really enforced by the Gardai at all.

Basically, I'm agreeing with el tontos point that this is a poor example to take when comparing rule breaking between motorists and cyclists..

coolbeans · 04-08-2011 04:02PM

dearg lady wrote: »

While I understand what you're saying, i won't follow any ridiculous laws just because it's the law.

Unless the specific law endangers you, I think you should obey it. I find that I'm treated far more respectfully by other road users if I stop at RLs and ped crossings.

monument · 04-08-2011 04:02PM

el tonto wrote: »

Is it not selective sampling though? Picking one area where motorists are most likely to break the speed limit

Isn't your city centre commute just as selective? For example, how many cyclists break red lights and cross from one side of the N11 to the other?

Davyhal wrote: »

Is it not a bit of a childish arguments to say "Well motorists break more laws than we do!"... Reminds me of a 4 year old being scolded for breaking a glass replying with "Well my brother broke the TV"... Don't compare yourselves to other modes of transport or to other cyclists, just take it upon yourself not to break the law. These are the rules of the road and abide by them!

It would be, if anybody was saying that.

I don't think anybody here is saying "Well motorists break more laws than we do!," but that that all road user groups are around the same in their law breaking even they choose different laws to be more selective about.

As much as I can, I not to break the law. Like many others here, I don't break lights -- I don't even break stop lines where I can help it.

Chips Lovell · 04-08-2011 04:02PM

dearg lady wrote: »

As I said in an earlier post I think cyclists should have a different set of rules than motorists. I don't think I'm 'special', just acknowledging the fact that bikes and cars are different.

But isn't this the mentality that informs pretty much every breach of road traffic law? I think I'm OK to drive after four pints. Or I think it's safe to drive along this road above the speed limit.

TinyExplosions · 04-08-2011 04:03PM

dearg lady wrote: »

i won't follow any ridiculous laws just because it's the law.

And that right there laydeez and gentlebobs says it all really...

jesus-facepalm-facepalm-jesus-epic-demotivational-poster-1218659828.jpg

Nanazolie · 04-08-2011 04:03PM

I cycled in Paris for years, never feared for my life (and everyone knows the traffic is mad there). I now cycle in Dublin and every night I thank God to be still alive. I still can't understand why the whole "use a bike" schemes and incentives (Dublin bikes, Bike to work and so on) didn't start with a rethinking of the cycle lanes and the law. When there is a cycle lane, it's used by cars to park on, or has to be shared with buses. I've been sandwiched between two buses several times and I don't like the feeling of being the squeezed tomato in a BLT

There are numerous cyclists who break the law, but in fairness, a collision with another bike won't cause as serious damages as a car. Still, accidents between bikes can cause damage: a moron on a bike crashed into mine when I stopped at a red light. He destroyed my mud guard, and he had the cheek to swear at me for stopping :mad:

I think there should be a separate traffic law for cyclists, and they should be fined for not sticking to it. Same for pedestrians who step on the road while playing on their IPhone or the ones who push a buggy in the middle of the road as a traffic guard. :mad:

mcmoustache · 04-08-2011 04:04PM

There are three types of bad cycling that I would like to see punished more severely. My perspective on this is as a cyclist and I don't (can't

) drive so I may be a bit biased.

1 - Red Light Jumpers.
These are the most visible rule-breakers on the road on my commute. The impression that I get is that they don't think that the ROTR apply to them. Either that or they see everyone else doing it and think "What the heck, everyone else is doing it so I will too.". A few Gardai waiting near lights would easily snare them. I'd like to see a €100 on-the-spot fine administered. If the cyclist has no cash, confiscate the bike till he ponies up.

2 - Footpath (it's NOT called a "footpad" btw) cyclists. The footpath is for feet not wheels. The only wheels that should be on them have a 6 inch diameter or less or they belong to children. No self-respecting adult should be cycling on the footpath. Any cyclist who thinks they can be on it should have their bike confiscated until they pay a fine of €100 and undergo cycling lessons at their own expense.

3 - Salmon cyclists. In the city (the only city in Ireland) centre, the cycle lanes are less than a meter wide. They are unidirectional. To help with that, they have a picture of a bike on them. If the picture looks upside-down to a cyclist, he's going the wrong way. It's pretty simple. Nobody wants to be playing sidewalk shuffle at 40kph relative speed. Their bikes should be confiscated, a fine should be imposed, cycling lessons forced on them and they should undergo a psychiatric evaluation before being given back their bikes.

Coronal · 04-08-2011 04:06PM

mcmoustache wrote: »

they should undergo a psychiatric evaluation before being given back their bikes.

A little OT, but why? I don't see the link between mental illness and not obeying rules of the road.

dearg lady · 04-08-2011 04:06PM

coolbeans wrote: »

Unless the specific law endangers you, I think you should obey it. I find that I'm treated far more respectfully by other road users if I stop at RLs and ped crossings.

I do in general, I used to always always stop at red lights, but these days I will proceed at a pedestrian crossing if it's clear and safe. I still met many awful rude drivers then, so I don't find myself treated any more respectfully now, but thats just personal experience.

Nanazolie · 04-08-2011 04:08PM

Coronal wrote: »

A little OT, but why? I don't see the link between mental illness and not obeying rules of the road.

I think it was humourous

Captain Havoc · 04-08-2011 04:13PM

Nanazolie wrote: »

I cycled in Paris for years, never feared for my life (and everyone knows the traffic is mad there). I now cycle in Dublin and every night I thank God to be still alive. I still can't understand why the whole "use a bike" schemes and incentives (Dublin bikes, Bike to work and so on) didn't start with a rethinking of the cycle lanes and the law. When there is a cycle lane, it's used by cars to park on, or has to be shared with buses. I've been sandwiched between two buses several times and I don't like the feeling of being the squeezed tomato in a BLT

I too lived in Paris and Dublin and have to disagree with you. I know now there are more cycle lanes in Paris than there were when I lived there eight years ago but Dublin traffic moves a lot slower. I used to live in the centre of Paris (8th) and Dublin 4. I find cycling in Dublin grand. I wouldn't get sandwiched between two buses because I'd either be infront of or behind one of them, I wouldn't use cycle lanes either because they're full of crap but they are a joy when you get a good one.

ThisRegard · 04-08-2011 04:14PM

mcmoustache wrote: »

2 - Footpath (it's NOT called a "footpad" btw) cyclists.

Howdy stranger, you must be new around these parts with your fancy dialect. It IS a footpad, end of.

dearg lady · 04-08-2011 04:14PM

el tonto wrote: »

But isn't this the mentality that informs pretty much every breach of road traffic law? I think I'm OK to drive after four pints. Or I think it's safe to drive along this road above the speed limit.

OK, I do take your point on board, but I think it's a very different set of circumstances. I am extremely careful, if there's any pedestrians nearby I won't go through, I always slow down so I can have time to see better whats around me, and I wouldn't ever do it on a busy junction. Now maybe you still see that as wrong, and that's fair enough, it's something we may have to disagree on. I just don't want you thinkin I'm a maniac who ploughs through lights willy nilly!

TinyExplosions wrote: »

And that right there laydeez and gentlebobs says it all really...

i love when people have a big fat NOTHING to add to a discussion and think they're hilarious with a facepalm.

Yes, I refuse to follow ridiculous and pointless laws, I have a brain, I'm not a sheep.

Should traffic laws be further enforced for cyclists?

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