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Is David Norris Toast?

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Comments

  • #1682
    zuroph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,102 ✭✭✭✭zuroph


    Pompey Magnus wrote: »
    zuroph wrote: »
    I never said 50. Plus, I'm looking at it from the eyes of the 15 year old. say his or her birthday is next month and the legal age is 16 where they live. they fancy an older person and sleep with them, and nothing bad ever comes of it. How does it affect you in any way??

    Thats all well and good, but how about we consider those minors that think they are ready for sex (or convinced into thinking it by an influencial adult) but are wrong and end up emotionalxly damaged from the experience? Their tough luck?

    The age of consent is there to protect people like them, it is not there as a means of the government intentionally thinking up ways of spoiling the fun of those that are ready and prepared for sex.
    Im not saying it isnt a good thing to have an age of consent, and that yes it serves an important protection.
    Im simply saying that in some cases of statutory rape ,charged or undiscovered, there is no emotional scars, and that the "victim" was a willing participant with no regrets. Some posters today used emotive language like forced, raped, attacked etc, while not knowing the details of the case, or others. One poster seemed to not even realise there was a possible consent difference between forced rape and statutory rape.

    Ezra actions were wrong, and he was punished. I have no problem with that.


  • #1683
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    zuroph wrote: »
    Who said I was defending Ezra??

    You suggested it may have been a pleasant experience, is that not defending Ezra's actions?


  • #1684
    zuroph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,102 ✭✭✭✭zuroph


    Pompey Magnus wrote: »
    zuroph wrote: »
    Who said I was defending Ezra??

    You suggested it may have been a pleasant experience, is that not defending Ezra's actions?
    I wasn't talking about Ezra case at all.


  • #1685
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    zuroph wrote: »
    Im simply saying that in some cases of statutory rape ,charged or undiscovered, there is no emotional scars, and that the "victim" was a willing participant with no regrets.

    Fair enough, the only problem is that it isn't possible for either participant to know that there will be no regrets or emotional scars left at the time, this will only emerge after the damage has been done and this is why I have a problem with it. The adult is playing Russian Roulette with the emotional well being of the youth.


  • #1686
    zuroph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,102 ✭✭✭✭zuroph


    Pompey Magnus wrote: »
    zuroph wrote: »
    Im simply saying that in some cases of statutory rape ,charged or undiscovered, there is no emotional scars, and that the "victim" was a willing participant with no regrets.

    Fair enough, the only problem is that it isn't possible for either participant to know that there will be no regrets or emotional scars left at the time, this will only emerge after the damage has been done and this is why I have a problem with it. The adult is playing Russian Roulette with the emotional well being of the youth.
    Agreed, I would be in favour of age of consent for this very reason. Ive had plenty of adult relationships that have scarred me enough :-P Im just saying that to presume every case was forced evil and destroyed the youths life is a terrible jump of logic.
    Unlawful carnal knowledge is a better term for the crime IMO, "rape" is a very emotive word that can skew the facts in some case discussion.


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  • #1687
    Harry Angstrom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,351 ✭✭✭✭Harry Angstrom


    Originally Posted by northkildare
    the meetings are no different to david norris, if you dont agree how they do things your treated badly.
    when a young man emails the centre looking for help they read out his email and say how they have invited him to come to the next one,
    i remember one guy shouting did he send a pic and everyone laughed.
    i have a problem with this and its pretty common

    nesf wrote: »
    Perma-banned for trolling.

    It's a pity this guy known as "northkildare" wasn't banned earlier. I received a warning yesterday for "insulting behaviour" simply because I alerted people to the fact that northkildare was a wummer and a troller. :rolleyes:


  • #1688
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    EDIT:

    Indeed.


  • #1689
    HarryPotter41
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭HarryPotter41


    jojo123jo wrote: »
    My understanding is that while they remained in touch, their relationship had already ended some years earlier.


    The educate yourself to the interview he gave in 2002 where its stated that they parted company in 2001


  • #1690
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    zuroph wrote: »
    Agreed, I would be in favour of age of consent for this very reason. Ive had plenty of adult relationships that have scarred me enough :-P Im just saying that to presume every case was forced evil and destroyed the youths life is a terrible jump of logic.

    The best comparison I can draw is with someone being caught driving with an alcohol level over the limit. The drink driving limit is somewhat arbitrary and some people would be very capable of driving competantly over the limit to a certain degree. The law however has a limit set and it applies to everyone, irregardless of whether they are better able to handle their drink than the average person.

    I compare an adult who has sex with a minor who they think is ready with someone who drives over the limit because they think they can handle it. They are both making an assumption which can only be disproved after they do the harm. This is why I disagree with people taking liberties with the law, just because they don't do any harm doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished.


  • #1691
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Harry Angstrom wrote: »
    It's a pity this guy known as "northkildare" wasn't banned earlier. I received a warning yesterday for "insulting behaviour" simply because I alerted people to the fact that northkildare was a wummer and a troller. :rolleyes:

    If you think someone is a troll report their posts. Calling them a troll on-thread will just get you infracted. It's real simple.

    Discussing moderation in-thread can and will get you banned. Please don't do this in future. If you have a problem PM me or one of the other mods rather than bringing it up on-thread.


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  • #1692
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    zuroph wrote: »
    and yes, I am suggesting it could be pleasant. When I was 15, if there was a really hot 50 year old woman who i thought I could score, I'd have been there.

    Indeed, hence why the 50 year old could be charged, not you. Pleasure isn't really the yard stick used, mental maturity is. A 50 year old would be expected to be a bit more mature than take advantage of a horny teenager.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #1693
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    I have mixed feelings about the whole affair to be honest. I find David Norris to be quite an affable, intelligent and interesting man. He's a bit eccentric but that's part of his charm.

    I think it's right that he's left the presidential race but I can't jump on this whole 'sex with minors' bandwagon/witch hunt. Norris appealed to an Israeli court for clemency by giving a character reference to someone who he loved dearly. This is common and not the same as condoning the crime in any way whatsoever. For those of you insinuating that Norris approves of sex with minors then you'll be shocked to know that Gay Mitchell advocates murder.

    It's appropriate that Norris should disband his campaign because he appealed for clemency using Seanad-headed notepaper and represented his position in public office while doing so. This is his crime. Any sound bites about boy rape are only really being used for dramatic effect and to rile up the red top readers.


  • #1694
    Duke Leonal Felmet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    zuroph wrote: »
    I wasn't talking about Ezra case at all.

    He tried the exact same thing with me, Zuroph. Claiming that I was defending Norris. I guess that's how he attempts to win debates.


  • #1695
    zuroph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,102 ✭✭✭✭zuroph


    Agreed.
    K-9 wrote: »
    zuroph wrote: »
    and yes, I am suggesting it could be pleasant. When I was 15, if there was a really hot 50 year old woman who i thought I could score, I'd have been there.
    Agreed
    Indeed, hence why the 50 year old could be charged, not you. Pleasure isn't really the yard stick used, mental maturity is. A 50 year old would be expected to be a bit more mature than take advantage of a horny teenager.
    Its emerging though that the Israeli courts did take the fact that the relationship was consensual into account. I also understand the relationship may have continued for many years once Ezra was released, by which time the partner was of age.
    I agree wholly with age of consent, it just angers me to see the story spun into a " he physically forced himself on a young boy and brutally sodomized him".
    We even had certain posters letting their personal opinions on anal sex twist their opinion on what happened.


  • #1696
    zuroph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,102 ✭✭✭✭zuroph


    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    zuroph wrote: »
    I wasn't talking about Ezra case at all.

    He tried the exact same thing with me, Zuroph. Claiming that I was defending Norris. I guess that's how he attempts to win debates.
    He accepted my clarification, other posters deliberately misinterpret, accuse then run and hide. One of the better discussions on this thread of late, just as I was giving up on it.


  • #1697
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    zuroph wrote: »
    Agreed.
    Its emerging though that the Israeli courts did take the fact that the relationship was consensual into account. I also understand the relationship may have continued for many years once Ezra was released, by which time the partner was of age.
    I agree wholly with age of consent, it just angers me to see the story spun into a " he physically forced himself on a young boy and brutally sodomized him".
    We even had certain posters letting their personal opinions on anal sex twist their opinion on what happened.

    Well judges would take into account if it was consensual for sentencing and it would make a difference. The future relationship is after the event though.

    I wonder would the future relationship have been part of his rational for the Magill interview about 10 years later?

    Thread has been a bit AH alright.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #1698
    Duke Leonal Felmet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    zuroph wrote: »
    Agreed.
    Its emerging though that the Israeli courts did take the fact that the relationship was consensual into account. I also understand the relationship may have continued for many years once Ezra was released, by which time the partner was of age.
    I agree wholly with age of consent, it just angers me to see the story spun into a " he physically forced himself on a young boy and brutally sodomized him".
    We even had certain posters letting their personal opinions on anal sex twist their opinion on what happened.

    Indeed, I detected some personal beliefs on sexual intercourse leading to some emotive posts.

    PS: An online Indo poll has 'None of the above' at 40%. Must be quite a candidate!


  • #1699
    Duke Leonal Felmet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    zuroph wrote: »
    He accepted my clarification, other posters deliberately misinterpret, accuse then run and hide. One of the better discussions on this thread of late, just as I was giving up on it.

    Yes, but I would rather people not jump to silly conclusions.


  • #1700
    Bock the Robber
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Bock the Robber


    BarackPyjama wrote: »
    It's appropriate that Norris should disband his campaign because he appealed for clemency using Seanad-headed notepaper and represented his position in public office while doing so. This is his crime.

    As I understand it, he used plain paper and the letter was submitted by Nawi's lawyer in accordance with Israeli law.


  • #1701
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    He tried the exact same thing with me, Zuroph. Claiming that I was defending Norris. I guess that's how he attempts to win debates.

    When did I do that? I have looked back at my posts where I quoted you on this thread and came across just these two occasions:

    1

    2

    Neither of which even mentions Norris. I'd really hate to think you are being guilty of doing the very thing you just accused me of so perhaps you can show me where I did it?


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  • #1702
    n32
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,221 ✭✭✭n32


    Godge wrote: »
    Well, I happen to know a few people (both male and female) who were once 15-year olds and who were sexually abused by older males and who have suffered since. They are still fully aware of who they had sex with.

    There is a certain flippant attitude on this thread and out there that sure it was consensual, what was the harm (it was only a bit of pederastry, that was educating the young lad, and sure isn't Norris' partner a good and moral person) mirrors the attitude of the Catholic heirarchy to sexual abuse by priests. I know both sides would hate it but the supporters of Norris who see nothing morally wrong with what he (and his partner) did and the supporters of the Church who see nothing wrong with what was done in Cloyne look more and more like each other all the time - a bit like the pigs and humans in Animal Farm.

    that is the single most sensible post i ve heard on the whole david norris affair. why is there a grey area when its a 50 yr old man haing sex with a young boy? if he was below the legal age of consent then the law was broken, as simple as that. its as if people are afraid to condemn him in case they are branded homophobic. for the last few years this country has been appalled by priests abusing their positions and abusing young people. how could we then elect a man to our highest office who has gone on the record about his warped views on relations between older men and young boys and then used an office of the state to try and influence a court case involving a rape case? then knowing his partner was a convicted rapist he continued his relationship with him. how is that different to priests and bishops knowing there were abusers in the midst?
    i ve read through this thread and i cant believe the amount of posters trying to make out that a relationship between a 50 yr old man and a 15 yr old boy is acceptable. if a 50 yr old man had sex with a 15 yr old girl , i think the reaction would be a lot different.
    jesus christ will people please get a grip of their senses.


  • #1703
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    n32 wrote: »
    that is the single most sensible post i ve heard on the whole david norris affair. why is there a grey area when its a 50 yr old man haing sex with a young boy? if he was below the legal age of consent then the law was broken, as simple as that. its as if people are afraid to condemn him in case they are branded homophobic. for the last few years this country has been appalled by priests abusing their positions and abusing young people. how could we then elect a man to our highest office who has gone on the record about his warped views on relations between older men and young boys and then used an office of the state to try and influence a court case involving a rape case? then knowing his partner was a convicted rapist he continued his relationship with him. how is that different to priests and bishops knowing there were abusers in the midst?
    i ve read through this thread and i cant believe the amount of posters trying to make out that a relationship between a 50 yr old man and a 15 yr old boy is acceptable. if a 50 yr old man had sex with a 15 yr old girl , i think the reaction would be a lot different.
    jesus christ will people please get a grip of their senses.

    I dont believe that the kinds of posters you refer to are representative of the gay community in general, but it is disturbing to see so many of these views.


  • #1704
    n32
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,221 ✭✭✭n32


    anymore wrote: »
    I dont believe that the kinds of posters you refer to are representative of the gay community in general, but it is disturbing to see so many of these views.
    i wasnt implying that they were the views of the gay community, theres straight and gay people making tools of themselves by trying to justify this whole affair


  • #1705
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    I think you'll find that people are judging the situation on the facts rather than what the tabloids have reported, and also recognise the fact that there is a world of difference between rape and statutory rape, despite what the Helen Lovejoys of the world might say.


  • #1706
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    n32 wrote: »
    i wasnt implying that they were the views of the gay community, theres straight and gay people making tools of themselves by trying to justify this whole affair
    Apologies


  • #1707
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    seamus wrote: »
    I think you'll find that people are judging the situation on the facts rather than what the tabloids have reported, and also recognise the fact that there is a world of difference between rape and statutory rape, despite what the Helen Lovejoys of the world might say.

    Who is Helen Lovejoy ?


  • #1708
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Lovejoy#Helen_Lovejoy


  • #1709
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    seamus wrote: »
    and also recognise the fact that there is a world of difference between rape and statutory rape, despite what the Helen Lovejoys of the world might say.

    Correction: There can be a world of difference between rape and statutory rape, there can also be an awful lot of harm and damage caused on the victim by statutory rape.


  • #1710
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    seamus wrote: »
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Lovejoy#Helen_Lovejoy

    Would you use that term in relation to those who have been critical of the catholic churchs attitudes to clerical sex abuse ?


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  • #1711
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    That's not a comparable scenario. Attempting to paint it as such just shows complete ignorance in relation to the facts of both situations.


This discussion has been closed.
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