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Convicted abuser who kept school job raped children again

245

Comments

  • #32
    jumbone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 617 ✭✭✭jumbone


    prinz wrote: »
    There was no involvement of the "Church" in this case. If the article noted he was a GAA player in his younger days would you say the GAA were involved in the case? Or that they were involved in "creating another child abuser"? 2+2 =/= 5. You contempt for an institution is fair enough, but this isn't the thread for it, for all you know he might have been kicked out of the seminary for some of his predilictions. You have no clue whether the later abuse and his time as a seminarian are in any way connected whatsoever.

    I'm sure that like the majority of schools in the country, the school in question is under the patronage of the church, who must have had knowledge of the reasons why he was kicked out of maynooth. They then still hired him to work in a school.

    However I have no idea what the communication channels inside the church are like and whether there was even a chance that this could have been spotted.

    What is much worse is that the lay staff of the school and the gardai failed in vetting him as in this case i'm sure that there definitely ought to have been some concerns raised. This failure could even be interpreted as criminal negligence on the part of whoever made the call to allow him to continue working with young people.


  • #33
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    mackg wrote: »
    Back on topic who does responsibility here rest with, the school obviously to some extent, what about the department of education? Who actually has the responsibility of firing someone when this type of thing comes to light.

    Probably will fall between two stools, with neither the board of management nor the Dept. of Education accepting full responsibility for it. Interesting question though, the school itself may be the direct employer for someone like a caretaker.


  • #34
    El Siglo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,803 ✭✭✭El Siglo


    actuallylike wrote: »
    And risk people beating the hell out of people until they have no choice to go underground so the police have no idea where they are?

    No, it's not a good idea.

    Yeh, because the current situation is so much better...


  • #35
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    jumbone wrote: »
    I'm sure that like the majority of schools in the country, the school in question is under the patronage of the church, who must have had knowledge of the reasons why he was kicked out of maynooth. They then still hired him to work in a school...

    The Board of Management of Board of Governors are responsible AFAIK for the hiring and firing of support staff at a school. Not the church. There may have been a member of the clergy on these biards but there is no indication that his leaving of the seminary was common knowledge to anyone involved.


  • #36
    El Siglo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,803 ✭✭✭El Siglo


    mackg wrote: »
    Yeah I do, this should have been handled by whoever had the responsibility of handling it. Every system relies on the parts functioning properly. This failure , as massive as it is, is not a reason to make huge knee jerk policy changes.

    It wasn't handled properly as is the case, however if the sex offenders register was public it would have made it more possible to not have him work in the school. This is a sickening situation, absolutely disgusting. Last week we had people talk about helping these rotten cunts, now a repeat offender working in a school? Seriously, how many more children have to be abused before the situation is nipped in the bud once and for all and that they're not just sent on an expensive holiday to the grenada institute at the expense of the tax payer?


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  • #37
    kingelmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 89 ✭✭kingelmo


    jujibee wrote: »
    Do you think the school should be held liable for this? In 2002 the man was convicted of assaulting students there in the 80's - got 6 months suspended sentence (WTF?!) and was kept on staff. Then went on to rape and take photos of more students.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/convicted-abuser-who-kept-school-job-raped-children-again-2818451.html

    1. Why did the school keep him on staff?

    2. Why was he only given a suspended sentence for child molestation?

    I just can't understand why adults are protecting other adults at the cost of children.


    Sick Sick person!!

    But im going to throw in my two cents worth, back nearly 10 years when i was in school we had a 'strange' male PE teacher. Seemed a bit creepy and strange to be around. He taught us pe and maths so we had to see him nearly every day but he also trained the girls football and boys hurling team.

    After training or matches he would walk into our dressing rooms and just stare all of us up and down. But he would walk in there like it was normal or natural. (Sick F**ker). We all reported this to the principal and parents but nothing seemed to come of it.

    At one Hurling match with the boys he 'groped' a player in the dressing rooms. The boys parents got involved with gardai but the school still stood by the teacher for a few months after and finally let him go. BUt we know he carried on teaching somewhere else and apparently got a reference off our school to get his new job!But he did do the same in the next school and he did get caught but i dont know what happened after that.

    SO personally i believe the schools and staff have alot to do with it. These people are involved in teaching children/teenages and to give them guidance for the future. In one way there meant to be looking after them not leaving a horrible person like that run wild around the place. What kind of example is that setting for them??


  • #38
    goat2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,934 ✭✭✭goat2


    what were they thinking, taking on a sex offender, once an offender always an offender, how many childrens and families has this piece of trash ruined, jail would be too good


  • #39
    fedor.2.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,944 ✭✭✭fedor.2.


    actuallylike wrote: »
    And risk people beating the hell out of people until they have no choice to go underground so the police have no idea where they are?

    No, it's not a good idea.



    They're child molesters, you dont get much more underground than that. If i had my way, id kill them all.


  • #40
    actuallylike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭actuallylike


    El Siglo wrote: »
    Yeh, because the current situation is so much better...
    Then having vigilantes killing people? Yes it is. The case here is tragic and obviously someone messed up but making child sex offenders lists public is as mentioned before, a knee jerk reaction and unhelpful.


  • #41
    fedor.2.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,944 ✭✭✭fedor.2.


    actuallylike wrote: »
    Then having vigilantes killing people? Yes it is. The case here is tragic and obviously someone messed up but making child sex offenders lists public is as mentioned before, a knee jerk reaction and unhelpful.


    I disagree, i think we have a right to know who they are and where they are


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  • #42
    7sr2z3fely84g5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭7sr2z3fely84g5


    Debate here- http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056314937


  • #43
    El Siglo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,803 ✭✭✭El Siglo


    actuallylike wrote: »
    Then having vigilantes killing people? Yes it is. The case here is tragic and obviously someone messed up but making child sex offenders lists public is as mentioned before, a knee jerk reaction and unhelpful.

    If vigilantes were to start dispensing vigilante justice, then they too would be subject to the full extent of the law, as anybody else. You're assuming that vigilantes would target these individuals and get away with it nilly willy. It's not a knee jerk reaction, we know people who commit murders, we know people who commit robberies etc... Once a person has a criminal record, that's it, they'll carry that. Why then shouldn't sex offenders be made known to the public (all things being equal)? What makes them so special?


  • #44
    actuallylike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭actuallylike


    fedor.2. wrote: »
    They're child molesters, you dont get much more underground than that.

    The police should know where they are at all times and make sure that they're not in employment or contact with children. Making the list public will just have the reaction like below.
    fedor.2. wrote: »
    If i had my way, id kill them all

    Thank God we don't live in a society of your way. Do you think a peaodophile chooses to have these feelings?
    No.
    Do you think they try their hardest to resist their urges?
    Yes.
    Can you comprehend what must be going through their head when they actually give in to attacking a child?
    No, because you live in the leisure of not having these urges so you couldn't possibly understand what's going on in their head.

    To be addicted to something must be the hardest thing in the world, tell an alcoholic not to drink his families life savings away, tell a gambling addict not to remortgage his house. It's not that simple. But at least with those addictions there is undersdtanding that it isn't their fault and there are steps thay can take not to cure but to control their urges. But in this society there is no understanding or sympathy which is a shame because anyone with these urges is never in a million years going to confind in anyone for risk of the outburst like you said above and we all know bottling up these urges is a sure fire way to blow.

    Peaodophillia is not a recent scurge, it has been around for as long as...well chilren I guess and like it or lump it, cute, innocent children today are going to grow up to be peaodophiles. Locking them up one by one or killing them one by one isn't fixing the problem. Accepting the condition and learning to control it is the solution and that won't happen while there is the attitudes of
    fedor.2. wrote: »
    If i had my way, id kill them all


  • #45
    fedor.2.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,944 ✭✭✭fedor.2.


    actuallylike wrote: »
    The police should know where they are at all times and make sure that they're not in employment or contact with children. Making the list public will just have the reaction like below.



    Thank God we don't live in a society of your way. Do you think a peaodophile chooses to have these feelings?
    No.
    Do you think they try their hardest to resist their urges?
    Yes.
    Can you comprehend what must be going through their head when they actually give in to attacking a child?
    No, because you live in the leisure of not having these urges so you couldn't possibly understand what's going on in their head.

    To be addicted to something must be the hardest thing in the world, tell an alcoholic not to drink his families life savings away, tell a gambling addict not to remortgage his house. It's not that simple. But at least with those addictions there is undersdtanding that it isn't their fault and there are steps thay can take not to cure but to control their urges. But in this society there is no understanding or sympathy which is a shame because anyone with these urges is never in a million years going to confind in anyone for risk of the outburst like you said above and we all know bottling up these urges is a sure fire way to blow.

    Peaodophillia is not a recent scurge, it has been around for as long as...well chilren I guess and like it or lump it, cute, innocent children today are going to grow up to be peaodophiles. Locking them up one by one or killing them one by one isn't fixing the problem. Accepting the condition and learning to control it is the solution and that won't happen while there is the attitudes of


    I beg to differ, i dont care how long its been around, i dont care that they haven't chosen to be that way. For as long as its been around im sure there have been hug-a-thugs like yourself trying to help and understand them, to no avail. I think my way should be tried for at least a trial period anyway;)


  • #46
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    actuallylike wrote: »
    Do you think a peaodophile chooses to have these feelings? No. Do you think they try their hardest to resist their urges? Yes.

    Given that some have become involved in vast sophisticated underground rings producing and distributing child pornography, involved in sex tourism travelling to certain locations with the intent of abusing children, involved in financing the trafficking of minors, have spent years weaseling their way into jobs and careers with access to children in a position of authority etc I'd say it's entirely possible that there are a number of paedophiles who don't try to resist their 'urges' in any meaningful way. Of course those who do resist successfully would never be in any danger because nobody would know.

    Do you often wonder if a conventional rapist chooses to have their 'feelings' and 'urges'?


  • #47
    actuallylike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭actuallylike


    fedor.2. wrote: »
    I think my way should be tried for at least a trial period anyway;)
    It has, hasn't worked
    https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/Abstract.aspx?id=247350


  • #48
    stephen_k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 449 ✭✭stephen_k


    The police should know where they are at all times and make sure that they're not in employment or contact with children. Making the list public will just have the reaction like below.

    I agree to some extent with you on this one, I don't believe their whereabouts should be made public for the only reason that the threat of vigilantiasm will drive them out of the Police and authorities control....

    However that said, what MUST happen is the Police and authorities to ENSURE that these people come nowhere near children and the fact that this guy worked for years in a school whist on the sex offenders register beggars belief.... Thats the problem with this country, locking these people up, absolutely no form of an attempt at rehabilitation and then worse, no follow up or monitoring, IMO....


  • #49
    actuallylike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭actuallylike


    prinz wrote: »
    Given that some have become involved in vast sophisticated underground rings producing and distributing child pornography, involved in sex tourism travelling to certain locations with the intent of abusing children, involved in financing the trafficking of minors, have spent years weaseling their way into jobs and careers with access to children in a position of authority etc I'd say it's entirely possible that there are a number of paedophiles who don't try to resist their 'urges' in any meaningful way. Of course those who do resist successfully would never be in any danger because nobody would know.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not a hug-a-thug as was mentioned before. I know there are people that take great pleasure out of what they do which is sickening but not all of them. And the people that are part of selling minors I can only assume they are in it for the money, not their own paedophillic tendencies (if any?).

    The police are there to prevent these people worming their way into children's circles (no pun intended:rolleyes:) and in this case they failed but I don't think because of this case that there should be a call for name and shame tactics because as you mentioned there are people who do resist and live normal lives, there are convictees who have served their term and will live normal lives but once their name is out they will be subject to abuse from society and as I said, it's like poking a sleeping bear.
    prinz wrote: »
    Do you often wonder if a conventional rapist chooses to have their 'feelings' and 'urges'?
    I'm not sure what you mean here. I don't think anyone chooses to have such strong sexual urges as to go out and force themselves on someone no.


  • #50
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    actuallylike wrote: »
    I don't think anyone chooses to have such strong sexual urges as to go out and force themselves on someone no.

    So a man who goes out tonight, meets a girl, tries it on, she's having none of it, so he rapes her... didn't have any choice in the matter? Are you trying to say that rapists are driven by forces external to their own will? People choose to abuse. It's not an out of body experience. It's a willful and often times conniving and sly act. The man convicted yesterday of raping his own 8 year old daughter, chose to rape her. You are getting very close to arguing for diminished responsibility based on sex drive/fantasies.


  • #51
    actuallylike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭actuallylike


    prinz wrote: »
    So a man who goes out tonight, meets a girl, tries it on, she's having none of it, so he rapes her... didn't have any choice in the matter? Are you trying to say that rapists are driven by forces external to their own will? People choose to abuse. It's not an out of body experience. It's a willful and often times conniving and sly act. The man convicted yesterday of raping his own 8 year old daughter, chose to rape her.
    The issue of paedophilia isn't 'meet a kid, tries it on, rapes him/her'. Paedophillia is a daily struggle where there is no relief at all. They're two completely different things. I'm not talking about rape as an issue here, it's paedophillia that is the issue.

    The man who raped his daughter might have been driven by a power urge rather than a sexual urge. Would that man have molested any child or just his daughter, there's a difference between the two.


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  • #52
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    actuallylike wrote: »
    The issue of paedophilia isn't 'meet a kid, tries it on, rapes him/her'. Paedophillia is a daily struggle where there is no relief at all. They're two completely different things. I'm not talking about rape as an issue here, it's paedophillia that is the issue..

    No the abuse of children is an issue. People with paedophilic tendancies who don't act upon that have no reason to fear from the Sex Offenders Register or from a vigilante backlash, so they really are irrelevant to the discussion of keeping their identities secret.

    Paedophiles who do abuse choose to abuse. You made the point that people don't choose to have the urge to abuse. Perhaps they don't, but the urge to do something is not the same as actually doing it. You have every choice in deciding to act upon your urges, whether it is against a child or an adult.


  • #53
    actuallylike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭actuallylike


    prinz wrote: »
    no reason to fear from the Sex Offenders Register or from a vigilante backlash, so they really are irrelevant to the discussion of keeping their identities secret.
    Doesn't matter if they haven't done anything, if their name gets out that they have paedophillic urges, their life is over. That's the society we live in.

    prinz wrote: »
    Paedophiles who do abuse choose to abuse. You made the point that people don't choose to have the urge to abuse. Perhaps they don't, but the urge to do something is not the same as actually doing it. You have every choice in deciding to act upon your urges, whether it is against a child or an adult.
    It's not that easy saying that becaue you're an adult, you have a choice in your actions. It's all well and good sitting there without these urges saying 'just don't do it'. As I said before, alcoholics 'don't have to drink' but they do.

    Reminds me of in WWI I think when people deserted the trenches were shot in the back for being cowards. Only after was post traumatic stress recognised as being a mental illness but sure it was too late by then. My point is even as an adult, in certain situations, it's not as easy to simply choose not to do something. Urges can overcome your good sense but like with alcoholism and gambling addiction, afflictions that can destroy your life and your families lives can't be cured, but they can be controlled with the help of people around you.


  • #54
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    actuallylike wrote: »
    Doesn't matter if they haven't done anything, if their name gets out that they have paedophillic urges, their life is over. That's the society we live in..

    ..and how exactly does their name get out in the above scenario?
    actuallylike wrote: »
    It's not that easy saying that becaue you're an adult, you have a choice in your actions. It's all well and good sitting there without these urges saying 'just don't do it'. As I said before, alcoholics 'don't have to drink' but they do...

    Actually it is that easy. Either don't do it or be prepared to accept the consequences. You can't have your cake and eat it. If an alcoholic crashes their car and kills or maims someone do we say, ah well they had these urges.. they weren't really responsible for what happened?


  • #55
    anawfulbogey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43 ✭anawfulbogey


    I blame the parents


  • #56
    actuallylike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭actuallylike


    prinz wrote: »
    ..and how exactly does their name get out in the above scenario?

    If a person has child porn on his computer and is caught, admittedly he has taken part in an industry that abuses children and will be punished for it. If he is on the sex offender list, released from prison and lives another 20 years of his life without anyone knowing and keeps his urges to himself succesfully and then the list becomes public, his life is over.
    prinz wrote: »
    Actually it is that easy. Either don't do it or be prepared to accept the consequences. You can't have your cake and eat it. If an alcoholic crashes their car and kills or maims someone do we say, ah well they had these urges.. they weren't really responsible for what happened?
    Drink driving is not the issue, not only alcoholics drink drive. If a family member struggled with drink would you say simply 'stop drinking' and it's as easy as that? If they wanted help and confided in you about their problem you would help (I imagine) them but in today's society if someone came up to you and said 'I have sexual urges towards children' they'd probably be branded as a sicko and there would be no option of understanding towards them, hence why people with these urges keep it quiet which with any addiction is the worst thing you can do.


  • #57
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    actuallylike wrote: »
    If a person has child porn on his computer and is caught, admittedly he has taken part in an industry that abuses children and will be punished for it. If he is on the sex offender list, released from prison and lives another 20 years of his life without anyone knowing and keeps his urges to himself succesfully and then the list becomes public, his life is over..

    ...because he didn't keep his urges to himself did he? He had child porn on his computer. Is it possible to find out if the person living next door to you is a murderer? If it was reported in the press yes. Do you think any child sex related news should be censored and all completed anonymously? If someone has child porn on their pc nobody else know about it?
    actuallylike wrote: »
    Drink driving is not the issue, not only alcoholics drink drive.

    Did I say only alcoholics drink drive or are you just trying to dodge the question I asked?
    actuallylike wrote: »
    ...hence why people with these urges keep it quiet which with any addiction is the worst thing you can do.

    Is paedophilia recognised as an addiction? Wasn't treating it as an addiction one of the major problems with recurring abuse in the past? i.e. priests were sent away for a few months as if to 'dry out' or go through withdrawals and deemed 'cured' etc then returned to contact with kids?


  • #58
    El Siglo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,803 ✭✭✭El Siglo


    actuallylike wrote: »
    The issue of paedophilia isn't 'meet a kid, tries it on, rapes him/her'. Paedophillia is a daily struggle where there is no relief at all. They're two completely different things. I'm not talking about rape as an issue here, it's paedophillia that is the issue.

    The man who raped his daughter might have been driven by a power urge rather than a sexual urge. Would that man have molested any child or just his daughter, there's a difference between the two.

    Well that's a twisted fucking logic isn't it? I had to read that twice because I actually can't believe you would post something as ridiculous. Paedophiles engage in sexual abuse, whether it's full penetration it's beside the point, it's not consensual and it's with a child. Rape and paedophilia can be seen as one in the same in this regard, as it's sexual activity that is not consensual.

    I find your second comment particularly sickening, as you deliberately avoid the elephant in the room. It doesn't matter why a father might rape his daughter, it's the rape itself that's the issue.

    Seriously, catch yourself on for fuck sake.

    Oh, and everyone has a daily struggle with life, albeit paying the rent or staying off drink. When you start sexually abusing and raping children, you're a fucking criminal, not sick, a fucking criminal and deserve to be subjected to the harshest extent of the law.


  • #59
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    El Siglo wrote: »
    When you start sexually abusing and raping children, you're a fucking criminal, not sick, a fucking criminal and deserve to be subjected to the harshest extent of the law.

    Ah sure maybe it was only a bit of ol' child porn on the computer.... Jesus wept.


  • #60
    7sr2z3fely84g5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭7sr2z3fely84g5


    like it or not,in the eyes of the irish law,an 19 year old man having sex with his 16 year old girlfriend would be considered child rape and thus be placed on the offender list,as said earlier there was a debate here on making the list public- http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056314937


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  • #61
    actuallylike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭actuallylike


    prinz wrote: »
    ...because he didn't keep his urges to himself did he? He had child porn on his computer. Is it possible to find out if the person living next door to you is a murderer? If it was reported in the press yes. Do you think any child sex related news should be censored and all completed anonymously? If someone has child porn on their pc nobody else know about it?
    My point was and still is about making the sex offender's list public or not, it's what I was getting at. Ireland's attitudes towards people with paedophillic tendencies is extremely negative as it should be (just want to set that straight) but making a list public will only worsen the situation in my opinion.

    If you found out a murderer who served his sentence lived next door to you, what would you do? Would you move out? Would you set up a petition to get them out? Would you cry out for laws to have signs like this in your neighbourhood (with murderer instead)?
    http://i.imgur.com/QvVA5l.jpg

    You wouldn't, but with paedophillia you would (or at least a lot of people would). Making the list public will make these happen and there will do no good, just like the Megan's Law scenario mentioned earlier. They only appeal to the masses who are generally gagging for blood.
    prinz wrote: »
    ...Did I say only alcoholics drink drive or are you just trying to dodge the question I asked?
    Not trying to dodge it all, I feel I answered it actually.


    prinz wrote: »
    ...Is paedophilia recognised as an addiction? Wasn't treating it as an addiction one of the major problems with recurring abuse in the past? i.e. priests were sent away for a few months as if to 'dry out' or go through withdrawals and deemed 'cured' etc then returned to contact with kids?
    I think it's obvious that the church's method of 'curing' isn't the most scientific approach and I don't think they had the credentials to deem anyone cured, but they did and it's sad that they did so.
    El Siglo wrote: »
    I find your second comment particularly sickening, as you deliberately avoid the elephant in the room. It doesn't matter why a father might rape his daughter, it's the rape itself that's the issue.
    I beg to differ, It hink the reason of 'why' is the most important issue. If you can determine why these things happen, then maybe you can start a process of stopping it from happening
    El Siglo wrote: »
    Seriously, catch yourself on for fuck sake.
    Relax, I know it's a sensitive subject but there was a decent discussion going on without the need for these comments.
    El Siglo wrote: »
    Oh, and everyone has a daily struggle with life, albeit paying the rent or staying off drink. When you start sexually abusing and raping children, you're a fucking criminal, not sick, a fucking criminal and deserve to be subjected to the harshest extent of the law.
    I never compared the hardships of paying rent to sexual urges towards children...and I think you know this.

    I agree, if someone rapes a child, they should be punished but instead of locking them up and patting yourselves on the back, why not try to analyse them and see if there's a definitive reason why they do it and isolate it therefore preventing it from happening in the future? Locking them up one by one won't fix the problem, it's not smallpox.

    ps I'm not going to respond if if you stay abusive, my opinions are my opinions and if you want to argue them fine but less of the effing and blinding please, you are a mod after all ;)


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