Dawkins sounds off. Lots of atheists upset.

Zombrex · 09-07-2011 07:44PM

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

What if it was a women asking a man back for a coffee, would it have been such a bid deal ? - These high horse feminists and their ego's make me laugh.

Of course not, because a woman has never done anything bad to a man. :P

Ickle Magoo · 09-07-2011 07:48PM

Wicknight wrote: »

She doesn't. Her initial objection was that it was sexist and objectifying (which is of course bad, done with that sort of thing). She does though endorse others who have said the potential rape situation.

I don't know what potential rape situ has to do with it - other than giving a very obvious explanation as to why a 4am coffee invite to a strange man's hotel room doesn't automatically make everyone think of coffee and a natter...and if we accept there is a potential sexual element to the request then you have to accept there is numerous other potentials to the situation...certainly some far less likely than other but enough to cause the feeling of unease, certainly.

Wicknight wrote: »

When we feel uncomfortable about something that has happened to us we naturally look for a rational reason to justify such feelings.

Equally when other people appear to be inferring we make them uncomfortable we often look for ways to dismiss and ridicule their rationale...

Wicknight wrote: »

That doesn't mean though we don't find reasons that are huge over reactions. When this is done in the context of, say black men, people have no trouble combating the over reaction with the notion of not justifying racism under the argument that it made you uncomfortable. After all just because some black men commit crimes that doesn't mean a white person made uncomfortable by a black man should dictate to black people how not to make white people uncomfortable. Such arrogance would be seen as highly inappropriate.

As posted above though - being approached by someone deliberately initiating contact, in a particular scenario, with ambiguous sexual undertones is not the same as being uncomfortable at being around a particular gender/race/whatever full stop. The closest analogy I can think of is if you were constantly approached by those groups of guys which made you feel quite intimidated; sometimes they are just after a friendly chat, sometimes you get pushed around and a couple of times you get beaten up - now, a group approaches you, what is your initial feeling going to be? Is that your fault or the fault of those whose behaviour has led you to feeling wary?

Wicknight wrote: »

This balance is something that seems to be largely missing, or at the very least some what social unacceptable, when it comes to women and their fear of men.

Well, no. I think the balance is accepting not all men are rapists [and I don't know anyone who thinks otherwise] and also accepting approaching a lone women in an elevator at 4 am for a self-serving proposition could be intimidating and make her feel uncomfortable - a situation any man with an ounce of self-awareness would surely wish to avoid?

Wicknight wrote: »

Dawkins waded in to the potential rape situation nonsense.

Using the same stance I've seen him and others here argue against a million times, not cool Dick, not cool. All he really did was highlight the irony of accepting some advances are inappropriate and understandably cause discomfort while blithely ignoring the reasons for that and neatly passing them off as privileged western female hysteria.

Zombrex · 09-07-2011 08:03PM

Normally wouldn't just post someone else' words, but this I feel is a very good assessment of the storm in a tea cup, from the skepchick comments section

Post by lordpasternack
I am going to give a nuanced view in this storm in a teacup that has polarised and confused so many people. I write this as a woman who doesn’t mind being hit on, and who moves in circles where I perhaps naively think what you used to think. I don’t fear being raped, and I don’t feel surrounded by misogynists. I also come from the UK, where there might be a real cultural difference that engenders these sentiments.

I think Rebecca’s initial complaint was entirely reasonable. She was calm and brief about it – and was justifiably made uneasy by the man’s approach of her in the elevator. I wouldn’t personally feel so edgy, but that’s my stance. She made no comment about genuinely fearing rape or assault, and I really do think that the guy was probably well-meaning but oblivious to how uncomfortable he was making her feel.

I didn’t see, I haven’t seen, the initial comments that got this storm really going on the side of the misogynists/ignoramuses. What I did see was the feminist responses, which from my vantage point looked hysterical – some of which genuinely aggressive and stupid – crying rape – and specifically putting this man down as a premeditative, predatory, sexist bastard – rather than someone who on the face of it sounds as though he would have apologised there and then if he’d known he’d made Rebecca uneasy.

These feminist responses made me angry, seriously angry. I will admit that I’ve been starting to find feminists within the atheist community to be becoming parodies of themselves. I could not help but balk at that event a while back where a woman protested at being called ‘female’ – and at the response to Elisabeth Cornwell’s talk – even while I agreed that it was obtuse to have a panel about women in atheism populated by men. (And hey, even the panel populated by women still didn’t fail in causing controversy!)

So this is a war, a polarised and polarising war, that has been stewing for quite a long time now. And I notice part of the problem. I am only picking up on the angry feminist responses – the responses I view as not only aggressive, but stupid and irrational. And PZ and others are completely failing to notice that part of the formula, and are asking the likes of myself why we’re so mad at Rebecca for having the gall to say no to a man who came onto her in the wrong place and at the wrong time, and for communicating that it made her uneasy via YouTube.

Either side is genuinely failing to see part of the picture – of all the provocations that have catalysed this tempest in a thimble – that have driven some to respond in anger on either side.

And on a bigger scale, many feminists are guility of what they accuse privileged men (and women) of being: oblivious. As you imply – many men and some women don’t normally live with fear or uneasiness around men, and would quickly brush Elevator Guy off and be done with it. Rebecca sort of did this. It’s obvious that though she was made to feel uneasy, she wasn’t sweating profusely, shaking like a leaf and grabbing for her rape alarm during the incident.

That is on my level of comprehension. Step back for a minute and imagine how some feminist rhetoric (not necessarily from yourself) looks from that vantage point. All the screaming about potential heinous assault, and how this man is obviously a big horrible mean predatory creep. Imagine how you’d have considered that before ‘converting’ to feminism.

And then encourage more people to do what you are trying to do and tell myself and others to step back and try to see your vantage point and why YOU are angry. You don’t want to be shouted at about how you should feel about a particular scenario. Curiously, neither do those who disagree with any particular feminist view about said scenario.

I get the feeling that much of this dispute has involved a crowd of loosely organised people screaming and shouting past each other, with a few composed voices butting in edgeways, but being mostly drowned out by the predominating angst.

I also think that Richard jumped the gun. I have been involved in a few web dramas involving Richard now, and I can assure you, it is entirely his style to butt in in a passion, while under-informed, and say his sincerely meant but ill-considered and misinformed piece – which, with further reflection he’ll partially retract and apologise for. I hope he does the latter here.

I don’t even think he saw/heard Rebecca’s actual words before he said what he said. I think he was reacting in a passion to the ‘hysterical feminists’ and took it upon himself to presume that the original source herself had been so impassioned about what happened that early morning in Dublin. This is again, unfortunately, not unlike Richard. For all that he waxes noble about careful skepticism, he is at times more ready to jump to conclusions and fail to do even the most basic research before giving his tuppence.

I have emailed Richard personally, detailing why Rebecca deserves an apology – even if he never meant to direct his ire towards her personally – and even though Richard and I may still not agree with some of the feminists hanging around. Rebecca personally did nothing to provoke his ire, and he did nothing to avoid it looking as though his words were directed at her personally.

He may not read that email – but hopefully he will catch wind of some of what is being said, and realise that he rightly owes her an apology, for the manner in which he chose to express his indignation over the drama that flared up in the wake of her words.

These are my thoughts as they stand right now. Thanks for listening.

Ickle Magoo · 09-07-2011 08:11PM

Other than this:

lordpasternack wrote:

I didn’t see, I haven’t seen, the initial comments that got this storm really going on the side of the misogynists/ignoramuses. What I did see was the feminist responses, which from my vantage point looked hysterical

Which I think is [deliberately] ignoring a great deal of what posters, bloggers and indeed myself posting here have been responding to, it's a very good post - with slightly less bias and with slightly more awareness of both the misogynist/ignoramus point as well as the OTT "feminists" that pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter too.

Zombrex · 09-07-2011 08:14PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't know what potential rape situ has to do with it - other than giving a very obvious explanation as to why a 4am coffee invite to a strange man's hotel room doesn't automatically make everyone think of coffee and a natter...and if we accept there is a potential sexual element to the request then you have to accept there is numerous other potentials to the situation...certainly some far less likely than other but enough to cause the feeling of unease, certainly.

Again I don't think anyone is objecting to Watson feeling unease.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Equally when other people appear to be inferring we make them uncomfortable we often look for ways to dismiss and ridicule their rationale...

I didn't make Rebecca Watson uncomfortable, nor did anyone else who has been commenting on this.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

As posted above though - being approached by someone deliberately initiating contact, in a particular scenario, with ambiguous sexual undertones is not the same as being uncomfortable at being around a particular gender/race/whatever full stop.

Its not. Which is why spinning this out into a rant against men is getting so many people's backs up. Don't forget the original context of this even being mentioned was Watson telling the viewers of her blog 'Don't do that guys'.

Imagine I'm on a bus at night with plenty of empty seats and a black man sits down beside me. This makes me mighty uncomfortable. Why is he sitting beside me, lots of other seats. I get up and hope off the bus.

I then post on Youtube telling black men Don't do this, it makes white people uncomfortable.

A few other bloggers then start saying that I was lucky to avoid a potential mugging and possibly even murder.

Anyone see the problem with either or both of those things?

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

The closest analogy I can think of is if you were constantly approached by those groups of guys which made you feel quite intimidated; sometimes they are just after a friendly chat, sometimes you get pushed around and a couple of times you get beaten up - now, a group approaches you, what is your initial feeling going to be?

Are you saying that Rebecca Watson has been raped a couple of times?

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Well, no. I think the balance is accepting not all men are rapists [and I don't know anyone who thinks otherwise] and also accepting approaching a lone women in an elevator at 4 am for a self-serving proposition could be intimidating and make her feel uncomfortable - a situation any man with an ounce of self-awareness would surely wish to avoid?

Good point. So why exactly is Rebecca Watson blogging about this under the guise of telling men that they really shouldn't do this?

You can't see the underlying assumption there?

Ickle Magoo · 09-07-2011 08:24PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Again I don't think anyone is objecting to Watson feeling unease.

Read this thread again.

Wicknight wrote: »

I didn't make Rebecca Watson uncomfortable, nor did anyone else who has been commenting on this.

And as I said earlier, if you have no intention of and have never propositioned a lone woman you've followed from hotel bar to the lift, I don't know why you think her plea was aimed at you...

Wicknight wrote: »

Its not. Which is why spinning this out into a rant against men is getting so many people's backs up. Don't forget the original context of this even being mentioned was Watson telling the viewers of her blog 'Don't do that guys'.

As above...and "guys" is even a non-gender specific way of addressing a group of people...

Wicknight wrote: »

Imagine I'm on a bus at night with plenty of empty seats and a black man sits down beside me. This makes me mighty uncomfortable. Why is he sitting beside me, lots of other seats. I get up and hope off the bus.

I then post on Youtube telling black men Don't do this, it makes white people uncomfortable.

Did he sexually proposition you? While just the two of you? In a lift? At 4 am? I'm not sure what bringing race straw-men have to do with the scenario that RW was asking "guys" not to do...

Wicknight wrote: »

A few other bloggers then start saying that I was lucky to avoid a potential mugging and possibly even murder.

Anyone see the problem with either or both of those things?

I don't think other people grabbing RW initial feelings on the matter and running with them makes her feelings on what happened to her or her plea that it not happen again any less reasonable.

Wicknight wrote: »

Are you saying that Rebecca Watson has been raped a couple of times?

I would think it highly unusual if she hasn't been in at least one situation where her wariness has proven justified...

Wicknight wrote: »

Good point. So why exactly is Rebecca Watson blogging about this under the guise of telling men that they really shouldn't do this?

You can't see the underlying assumption there?

As far as I can see, she was asking the kind of guys who would do, to not to...and anything else is just a hysterical over-reaction. Go figure.

Zombrex · 09-07-2011 08:33PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

And as I said earlier, if you have no intention of and have never propositioned a lone woman you've followed from hotel bar to the lift, I don't know why you think her plea was aimed at you...

Black men, please stop raping white women.

*obviously if you are a black man who has never raped a white women that comment was not intended for you.

I think her plea was aimed at me because it was aimed at me. I know it was aimed at me because she address it to me an all other men in the skeptic/atheist community.

In reality the person it should have been aimed at was the creepy guy in the lift.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Did he sexually proposition you? While just the two of you? In a lift? At 4 am? I'm not sure what bringing race straw-men have to do with the scenario that RW was asking "guys" not to do...

Should I ask black men not to do this as well? It did make me uncomfortable. Or am I not allowed get uncomfortable?

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't think other people grabbing RW initial feelings on the matter and running with them makes her feelings on what happened to her or her plea that it not happen again any less reasonable.

I can guarantee RW is not going to be in a lift with this guy again, so pleas that this not happen again seem some what redundant, don't they?

Unless...

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I would think it highly unusual if she hasn't been in at least one situation where her wariness has proven justified...

How does "wariness has proven justified" line up with "sometimes you get pushed around and a couple of times you get beaten up"

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

As far as I can see, she was asking the kind of guys who would do, to not to...and anything else is just a hysterical over-reaction. Go figure.

And when I say "black men don't do this" I'm just talking about the types of black men that would rape white women. Not all black men obviously.

Now, do you think that excuse would fly very far?

Taking isolated incidents, particularly blowing them out of proportion, and using them as an excuse to dictate and instruct and criticise large sections of society, well there are names for that and they normally end in -ism.

DeBunny · 09-07-2011 08:37PM

OK, I haven't read all 27 pages of this thread so maybe this has been pointed out already, but the "if its ok for a woman to proposition a man then the opposite is OK" analogy, is incorrect.

I'm white, male and straight but if I was constantly being propositioned by people within a particular community who were taller and stronger than me, I think I'd be well within my rights to ask them to stop.

Would you be comfortable with people, who were taller and stronger than you, constantly and tactlessly asking if they could penetrate you? Even if you were OK with it, then its pretty easy to understand why someone else wouldn't be. Don't be a dick - its as simple as.

Ickle Magoo · 09-07-2011 09:04PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Black men, please stop raping white women.

*obviously if you are a black man who has never raped a white women that comment was not intended for you.

I think her plea was aimed at me because it was aimed at me. I know it was aimed at me because she address it to me an all other men in the skeptic/atheist community.

In reality the person it should have been aimed at was the creepy guy in the lift.

Back to the race straw-man. Great.

So you would have been perfectly happy with her complaint and her plea if she'd qualified the statement that she was only referring to guys who would do that? I think it's missing the over-all point she's making and that it surely is ALREADY only aimed at those who would - otherwise why ask to refrain? Seems a bit pedantic for the sake of it, tbh.

Wicknight wrote: »

Should I ask black men not to do this as well? It did make me uncomfortable. Or am I not allowed get uncomfortable?

I think we're just getting bogged down with straw-men, red herrings and semantics again. If you were followed into a confined area by said man and they made an ambiguous sexual proposition, I'd be amazed if you weren't uncomfortable - and it wouldn't be the colour of the guys skin causing the discomfort. If RW had a black woman sit next to her on a bus and say nothing, there wouldn't have been a blog about it - so I'm struggling to see why you insist on comparing two completely different situations.

Wicknight wrote: »

I can guarantee RW is not going to be in a lift with this guy again, so pleas that this not happen again seem some what redundant, don't they?

Unless...

Well, this is where we get back to the oft and annoying propositions that many women have to put up with and that not all welcome...she may not be in a lift with THAT guy again but if her experiences are anything like mine, there is a seemingly endless stream of tactless and clueless opportunists who will unwittingly take their place.

Wicknight wrote: »

How does "wariness has proven justified" line up with "sometimes you get pushed around and a couple of times you get beaten up"

In my experience and that of women I've spoken with, having a had propositions quickly turn into a grope or intimidating situation is sadly not that unusual. I appreciate that's personal anecdote on my part - but it's also why her initial plea resonated with me.

Wicknight wrote: »

And when I say "black men don't do this" I'm just talking about the types of black men that would rape white women. Not all black men obviously.

Now, do you think that excuse would fly very far?

If as many black men thought that raping white women was a hysterical over-reaction as those who seem to think it's a woman's fault for feeling uneasy at being followed to a lift for ambiguous sexual propositioning at 4 am then it would probably fly a lot further.

Bob Cratchet · 09-07-2011 09:08PM

DeBunny wrote: »

OK, I haven't read all 27 pages of this thread so maybe this has been pointed out already, but the "if its ok for a woman to proposition a man then the opposite is OK" analogy, is incorrect.

I'm white, male and straight but if I was constantly being propositioned by people within a particular community who were taller and stronger than me, I think I'd be well within my rights to ask them to stop.

Would you be comfortable with people, who were taller and stronger than you, constantly and tactlessly asking if they could penetrate you? Even if you were OK with it, then its pretty easy to understand why someone else wouldn't be. Don't be a dick - its as simple as.

keep yer knickers on luv.

DeBunny · 09-07-2011 09:23PM

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

keep yer knickers on luv.

First of all, I don't think that's the phrase you were looking for, unless you've mistaken me for a woman and you're telling me you don't want to have sex with me.
Secondly, what's your point?

Can you not see the difference between men asking women for sex and women asking men for sex?

robindch · 09-07-2011 10:33PM

Justicar wrote: »

robindch wrote: »

Justicar wrote: »

[...] some people here have been arguing on a rather curious set of facts which are either a.) not borne out by the evidence or b.) omit countervailing evidence [...] I am under the impression that one of them is a moderator.

If it's me, then please let me know where I've posted something false.

I didn't take notes of who said what wrong.

Well, perhaps you should have before you accused one of the forum moderators of lying.

Justicar wrote: »

robindch wrote: »

And drop the "delenda est" nonsense -- further use will result in carding or a forum ban.

[...] I'll formal, proper latin instead of that nasty slang. Ceterum censeo Rebecco Twatson esse delendam.

Well, perhaps you should have (gap) formal, proper English.

For ignoring a formal warning, you're now on a week's break which will be extended indefinitely if you can't find it within yourself to stick to the forum rules.

BTW, less than a day from registration to >= 20 posts to first forum ban is, I think, a record in A+A. Well done, up to a point

robindch · 09-07-2011 10:35PM

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

keep yer knickers on luv.

Let's try keep it to just one victim this evening, shall we? :rolleyes:

Monty Burnz · 09-07-2011 10:41PM

Originally Posted by Wicknight
Again I don't think anyone is objecting to Watson feeling unease.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Read this thread again.

Is anyone else getting deja vu at this point?

Could all the people who have argued that she was not entitled to feel unease please step forward?

*tumbleweed*

Dades · 09-07-2011 10:57PM

Whatever else this thread is it contains a good example of a poster with illusory superiority.

All posts no doubt typed from his mum's basement.

Monty Burnz · 09-07-2011 11:44PM

robindch wrote: »

Well, perhaps you should have before you accused one of the forum moderators of lying.

I've experience of this phenomenon. Even if he had proof of it, he would still be wasting his time...

virmilitaris · 10-07-2011 08:02AM

Is the irony lost on everyone that this situation is exactly the kind of example Muslims would use to defend the way women are treated in certain parts of the world ?

I've read some horrendous ****e from certain people on this thread, such as the man shouldn't have approached her alone, he should have done it in public. Well here's a thought for you, it's not easy for a man to approach a woman. Because of our culture it's almost always up to us to do the chasing and we don't want to get shot down in public where others can have a good old laugh at our awkward advances and subsequent rejection.

This whole nonsense is exactly what Muslims say. It's not 'safe' for women to be alone with a man because men are controlled by the snake in their pants.

Well if Miss Watson and her followers believe half the crap they have come out with then the Muslims are right and women shouldn't be allowed out without a male relative to defend them against the horde of horney men.

People like Watson do not want equality, they want a privileged position.

How dare a man approach a woman in private and politely proposition a woman! :rolleyes:

I have literally heard Muslims say the exact same thing.

Are we trying to be equals or not ? Are we trying to be reasonable or not ?

Ickle Magoo · 10-07-2011 08:20AM

That sounds suspiciously like men should be able to avoid feeling intimidated and awkward by having carte blanch to proposition women and women should have some understanding and compassion of how men feel in such a scenario - and yet how dare any woman feel the same way and plead equal recognition and awareness...hardly equality either.

Surely the most reasonable view is that both sides aim to meet somewhere in the middle - rather than only taking into consideration the views or feelings of one, or the other?

virmilitaris · 10-07-2011 08:52AM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

That sounds suspiciously like men should be able to avoid feeling intimidated and awkward by having carte blanch to proposition women and women should have some understanding and compassion of how men feel in such a scenario - and yet how dare any woman feel the same way and plead equal recognition and awareness...hardly equality either.

A carte blanch to proposition women ? I really don't understand this. Just when and in what circumstances is it appropriate for a man to proposition a woman then ?

I propositioned my (now) wife for the first time on a very quiet subway platform at 2am one night. Was that appropriate ? Bear in mind she's asian and much smaller than me so if anything I was more of a 'threat' to her than elevator guy was to Watson.

If I google subway rape (elevator rape) I'm pretty sure I'm going to get a lot of results of actual incidents as well as ridiculous amounts of Japanese porn. Does that mean I (elevator guy) was wrong ?

I wouldn't have met or married my wife if I hadn't done it. Honestly will the pro-Watson people please answer this question ?

Should women who don't wish to be propositioned wear some kind of symbol, let's say a star of david for example, to indicate they are not interested in being approached at that time ?

Should men have to announce their intentions publicly before approaching women. "Hello everyone, I'm about to proposition some women here tonight. Would you all please watch me in case I cannot control my animal urges and go on a raping spree please ? Thank you"

Surely the most reasonable view is that both sides aim to meet somewhere in the middle - rather than only taking into consideration the views or feelings of one, or the other?

How can we possibly take the feelings of either party into account when we cannot know those feelings before hand ? I very much doubt that most women would have had any issue whatsoever with the situation that we are discussing.

I read some nonsense on that blaghag blog where she talked about been afraid for her life every time she left her apartment. How she left the name and phone number of the man she was dating on her computer monitor before she went on a date so that if anything happened the cops could track him down.

This is utter madness.

Sure rape does happen and sure I can understand how women do need to be careful in certain circumstances but this is ridiculous.

If Watson and co are correct then women should be walking around in burka's escorted by their father or brother everywhere they go.

What you had right here was a man innocently trying his luck. End of. If we start down this road then where do we finish ?

Women not allowed to be alone with a non-male relatives ? Men only allowed to proposition women through a proxy such as their father ?

Ickle Magoo · 10-07-2011 09:18AM

Yeah, carte blanch - following a lone woman into a lift and chatting at a bar = equally reasonably and thoughtful courses of action for a male wishing to try his luck.

You are still just arguing for the right of men to proposition women carte blanch and women to have compassion and understanding for the reasons behind that without also acknowledging that RW is doing exactly the same from the opposite perspective...

And baring in mind you accept that women do have to be careful in certain circumstance - how can you also in the same sentence dismiss fears expressed? What specific circumstances would you consider it acceptable for some women to point out they feel fear or intimidated or threatened under?

There seems to be a common theme that feeling uneasy or uncomfortable is understandable, and that yes women should take care but under no circumstances should they link the two and suggest men be more aware of the reasons for either....and the argument that all women should be happy with being approached alone in the early hours because others are is just the flip side to the arguments that no man should approach women because some aren't happy with it - as has already been said, compromise and context is key.

How can we take the feelings of both into account? Well, I don't consider it acceptable for women to deliberately ignore or act in such a way as to maximise the discomfort, unease or embarrassment a man may feel at propositioning and I expect men to take those very feelings into account when choosing what manner to approach women. Simples.

virmilitaris · 10-07-2011 09:34AM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Yeah, carte blanch - following a lone woman into a lift and chatting at a bar = equally reasonably and thoughtful courses of action for a male wishing to try his luck.

I approached a lone woman at 2am on an empty subway platform and propositioned her. She's now my wife.

Were my actions inappropriate ?

You are still just arguing for the right of men to proposition women carte blanch and women to have compassion and understanding for the reasons behind that without also acknowledging that RW is doing exactly the same from the opposite perspective...

I'm not asking women to do anything. The only reason I mentioned what goes through mens heads when they are propositioning women is that half the posters supporting Watson are talking about what they believe was going through his mind.

Men and women (and men and men and women and women) have sex.
Because of our society and biological nature its almost always men that approach women for sex.

This is the way the world works.

As a non-rapist man I find this entire situation to be extremely insulting. I am not allowed to be alone with a woman I don't know and proposition her because some men rape some women ? Ridiculous.

What specific circumstances would you consider it acceptable for some women to point out they feel fear or intimidated or threatened under?

When a man does something forceful.

How can we take the feelings of both into account? Well, I don't consider it acceptable for women to deliberately ignore or act in such a way as to maximise the discomfort, unease or embarrassment a man may feel at propositioning

Right can I make a youtube video whining about that then ?

and I expect men to take those very feelings into account when choosing what manner to approach women.

Can you answer my question about meeting my wife on the subway please ?

Ickle Magoo · 10-07-2011 09:59AM

virmilitaris wrote: »

I approached a lone woman at 2am on an empty subway platform and propositioned her. She's now my wife.

Were my actions inappropriate ?

Other women have been approached lone at 2 and feel fear and intimidation - and worse and feel such propositioning is inappropriate. Stating retrospectively that one woman was happily propositioned doesn't negate the points made by others who didn't share your happy ending...

virmilitaris wrote: »

I'm not asking women to do anything. The only reason I mentioned what goes through mens heads when they are propositioning women is that half the posters supporting Watson are talking about what they believe was going through his mind.

And I think all RW was doing was asking the kind of man who follows a women he's never met into a lift at 4am to invite her to his hotel room to think about what's going through some women's minds under those specific circumstances...

virmilitaris wrote: »

Men and women (and men and men and women and women) have sex.
Because of our society and biological nature its almost always men that approach women for sex.

This is the way the world works.

I'm aware people have sex - that doesn't negate the points being made either.

So because men do the lions share of propositioning, there are no circumstances under which propositioning is inappropriate?

virmilitaris wrote: »

As a non-rapist man I find this entire situation to be extremely insulting. I am not allowed to be alone with a woman I don't know and proposition her because some men rape some women ? Ridiculous.

I think it's more that it's both silly and naive to dismiss and ridicule why some women feel uncomfortable at being approached by a man they don't know in a confined area.

virmilitaris wrote: »

When a man does something forceful.

Only when he does something forceful? You have never felt fear and intimidation or felt uncomfortable at someone's behaviour even though they had not openly threatened, shouted or touched you?

Of course, that infers that no woman has any reason or right to be wary of men they don't know following them into enclosed areas...or for voicing why they are wary.

virmilitaris wrote: »

Right can I make a youtube video whining about that then ?

Of course - and if any man was whining about a woman complaining about being followed into an enclosed space at 4am for invites to his room just because he has the social skills of a gerbil, I'll be sure to treat it with just as much empathy and understanding.

virmilitaris wrote: »

Can you answer my question about meeting my wife on the subway please ?

Can I answer whether you approaching a woman who was, retrospectively, glad to be approached inappropriate? Really? Surely the only reason you feel the question has any merit is that you now know she didn't find it inappropriate - which, out-with the OTT stuff, is exactly the point being made, no?

virmilitaris · 10-07-2011 10:30AM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Other women have been approached lone at 2 and feel fear and intimidation - and worse and feel such propositioning is inappropriate. Stating retrospectively that one woman was happily propositioned doesn't negate the points made by others who didn't share your happy ending...

I didn't say she didn't feel it was inappropriate or that she wasn't scared etc. I simply stated what I did and asked you was it appropriate or not. My wifes feelings one way or the other is not the issue. My actions are.

Were my actions wrong ? You can presume any feelings you want for the girl in the subway. I am not a mind reader so I don't know how she felt at the time. The only question of relevance is was I wrong to approach her.

And I think all RW was doing was asking the kind of man who follows a women he's never met into a lift at 4am to invite her to his hotel room to think about what's going through some women's minds under those specific circumstances..

Brilliant. So to phrase a question similar to another poster.

I constantly hear from Asians, both male and female, that they are extremely uncomfortable being alone with foreigners. For example a friend of mine was walking home one night when a large black American man was passing him and asked him for a cigarette. He said he thought he was going to be mugged or beaten up.

Would it be appropriate for my Asian friend to make a youtube video telling black people to take the feelings of asians into account when they are going about their business and not to initiate conversations in such circumstances ?

So because men do the lions share of propositioning, there are no circumstances under which propositioning is inappropriate?

Could you give an example of one ? Off the top of my head and it's by no means a comprehensive list I would include a girl been too drunk, a girl clearly being in a relationship, a girl upset by something.

I think it's more that it's both silly and naive to dismiss and ridicule why some women feel uncomfortable at being approached by a man they don't know in a confined area.

I'm not dismissing it, I'm accepting it. My Asian friends don't feel comfortable with black people in certain circumstances because some black people commit crimes. They have the right to be uncomfortable. But they do not have the right to inform all black people that they shouldn't do x, y and z because it makes them uncomfortable. That is well beyond the line.

Only when he does something forceful? You have never felt fear and intimidation or felt uncomfortable at someone's behaviour even though they had not openly threatened, shouted or touched you?

I didn't say she shouldn't feel uncomfortable, I'm saying she has no right to tell 'men' not to do something because it makes 'women' uncomfortable when that 'something' is perfectly normal and natural.

Ickle Magoo · 10-07-2011 11:12AM

And round and around and round we go... *sigh*

There is no argument presented there that has not already been addressed - I don't mean to be cutting you off specifically but I don't see the point in continually coming up with rebuttals and retorts to slight variations of the same straw-men and red-herrings that have already been addressed. I fear we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Ultimately, I guess it all hangs on your definition of "normal and natural" - for me that's not having such deplorable social skills that despite having the opportunity to proposition them elsewhere, you have to follow a woman into an empty hotel lift...and then compound that blooper by having such a lack of social awareness that any woman pointing out how unnecessary/the possible negative ramifications of such behaviour from her perspective is automatically deemed over-reactionary and hysterically accusing all men of wanting to rape.

Beyond that, meh, both extremes being completely blinkered and steadfastly ignorant to the opposing viewpoint under the illusion each have the moral and rational high-ground in its entirety...now, there IS a fact of life.

virmilitaris · 10-07-2011 12:40PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

And round and around and round we go... *sigh*

There is no argument presented there that has not already been addressed -

There is. You have not addressed my question regarding my proposition to the girl on the subway for one. you have also not addressed the racial question.

Going by what you have previously said and going by what Watson and co have been saying, I can only assume that my action in propositioning the girl on the subway was 'inappropriate'. Do you agree or disagree ?

The whole problem with this situation is that Watson has no right to tell half the human race what not to do because it makes her feel uncomfortable. She has every right to feel whatever way she likes but she has no right to make demands of others because of it.

I am not a rapist and I will not be told I cannot behave in a completely innocent manner because some men rape some women.

The simple fact of the matter is that many women would feel the same as her, many women would be flattered, some women might even accept such an offer and some might end up in a relationship out of such an encounter. Watson has no right to dictate to others on this. It's self-important attention seeking from her.

10-07-2011 01:41PM

virmilitaris wrote: »

The whole problem with this situation is that Watson has no right to tell half the human race what not to do because it makes her feel uncomfortable. She has every right to feel whatever way she likes but she has no right to make demands of others because of it.

I am not a rapist and I will not be told I cannot behave in a completely innocent manner because some men rape some women.

The simple fact of the matter is that many women would feel the same as her, many women would be flattered, some women might even accept such an offer and some might end up in a relationship out of such an encounter. Watson has no right to dictate to others on this. It's self-important attention seeking from her.

Wow, the strawmen used in this thread have truly become epic since I left.

Yahew · 10-07-2011 01:59PM

King Mob wrote: »

Wow, the strawmen used in this thread have truly become epic since I left.

Nonsense. The idea that men shouldn't proposition women because the women get s-s-scared is a claim that women see men as rapists. If a child were in the elevator and asked to be taken back to his room, she wouldn't have been intimidated. The intimidation was because the guy was male, the subtext is fear of rape. ( The fact that rapists generally dont make a polite pass, is to be ignored in the increasing hysteria.)

Other women have been approached lone at 2 and feel fear and intimidation - and worse and feel such propositioning is inappropriate. Stating retrospectively that one woman was happily propositioned doesn't negate the points made by others who didn't share your happy ending...

So in the general case given that some women feel intimidated at 2AM, and given that men are not mind readers you are saying that no male should approach any female because we can't know the internal workings of the specific woman's mind. WIth that rule these two would not have got together.

Is there a list on times and places where this works, and doesn't?

10-07-2011 02:07PM

Yahew wrote: »

Nonsense. The idea that men shouldn't proposition women because the women get s-s-scared is a claim that women see men as rapists. If a child were in the elevator and asked to be taken back to his room, she wouldn't have been intimidated. The intimidation was because the guy was male, the subtext is fear of rape. ( The fact that rapists generally dont make a polite pass, is to be ignored in the increasing hysteria.)

Again, not what she said or implied, thus it's a strawman.
The strawman have gotten a lot worse.

And they are getting more and more sexist.

And the entire time no-one seems willing to actually examine what Dawkins had said and why it was both sexist and hypocritical.

Hence why I am very disappointed with some of the posters here.

enfant terrible · 10-07-2011 03:31PM

King Mob wrote: »

Again, not what she said or implied, thus it's a strawman.
The strawman have gotten a lot worse.

And they are getting more and more sexist.

And the entire time no-one seems willing to actually examine what Dawkins had said and why it was both sexist and hypocritical.

Hence why I am very disappointed with some of the posters here.

Strawperson

pH · 10-07-2011 03:59PM

I can't help but think that even with the strong disagreement on both sides, if the goalposts moved just a little bit, either way, we'd all end up on the same side.

I mean, if the request had been more sleazy, if there was attempted touching, if it used vulgarities, then I'm pretty sure we'd all be on the same side. What I'm saying is that we all can imagine an act/proposition we'd consider inappropriate in this "man & woman in a lift at 4am" context, and to be honest (for me) they're not a lot beyond "want to come back to my room for coffee", but for me personally they are beyond that line.

On the other side, what about if he'd waited until the doors open and then spoken? Or just in the corridor outside? Is that now OK, and if so is all this heated debate really about getting timing perfect in a 15 second window?

Or what about not requesting "coffee in his room", what if the request had been for a "date" the next evening, or a phone number or email - is that inappropriate too?

Is this just a very heated debate about drawing a very fine line, about expecting a man (presumably slightly tired and emotional) at 4am in the morning to get it exactly right, or am I missing something, is there a more general rule I'm missing here, governing how a man who's attracted to a woman may and may not approach her?

Dawkins sounds off. Lots of atheists upset.

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