N25 Cork to Midleton "Dual Carrigeway" question

flazio · 27-06-2011 11:16PM #1

Was on a road trip lately and travelling from Cork to Midleton on the dual carrgeway and I could not believe my eyes, junctions that allow you to cross onto the median and wait for a gap in other traffic, houses with entrances facing onto the dual carriageway itself, I wondered how it was allowed to happen until someone pointed out that the houses probably predated the dual carriageway and that some bright spark came up with the idea to just build another road along side the existing one and hey presto dual carriageway.
So, when was this thought up and built and by whom? And do the relevant authorities have any plans to address the safety hazards that are there?

Victor · 28-06-2011 01:19AM

I think that section dates from the 1970s. There were plans to completely grade separate Carrigtwohill-Midleton, but it was dependent on funding from development of the IDA lands, that never happened.

2011: http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,586430,573665,7,3
1911 (Approx): http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,586430,573665,7,9

The Bandon Road one was a bit more hair raising. For a long time, the "local" carriageway here was the northbound carriageway. http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,563381,565829,7,3

veryangryman · 28-06-2011 08:31AM

flazio wrote: »

Was on a road trip lately and travelling from Cork to Midleton on the dual carrgeway and I could not believe my eyes, junctions that allow you to cross onto the median and wait for a gap in other traffic, houses with entrances facing onto the dual carriageway itself, I wondered how it was allowed to happen until someone pointed out that the houses probably predated the dual carriageway and that some bright spark came up with the idea to just build another road along side the existing one and hey presto dual carriageway.
So, when was this thought up and built and by whom? And do the relevant authorities have any plans to address the safety hazards that are there?

Its still a good thing to dual up the roads.

As far as i can see, this is why the A1(M) in England is not completely Motorway - too much development prior to its upgrade

niloc1951 · 28-06-2011 09:06AM

I remember driving it in the late sixties in the Dad's Anglia seeing what she would do, young and foolish

:D

corktina · 28-06-2011 09:09AM

veryangryman wrote: »

Its still a good thing to dual up the roads.

As far as i can see, this is why the A1(M) in England is not completely Motorway - too much development prior to its upgrade

the non motorway bits are plain A1 presumably

Owen · 28-06-2011 09:14AM

It's a little known fact that due to the cratering of the surface, National Geographic film all their moon documentaries there.

marmurr1916 · 28-06-2011 09:38AM

It's a crappy piece of dual carriageway alright, but not untypical of dual-carriageways built in Ireland before the 1990s. There are lots of private entrances on the section of the N18 between Limerick and Bunratty, a stretch of dual-carriageway that was built in the 1960s/1970s.

There are plenty of cross-over points and private entrances onto dual-carriageways in the UK, even though they have a general speed limit of 70mph (ca. 114km/h).

A couple of examples:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Airport+near+A90,+Aberdeen&hl=en&ll=57.185088,-2.196386&spn=0,0.010568&sll=50.401078,-4.913635&sspn=0.236781,0.676346&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=57.185169,-2.196587&panoid=3VfZoViK8gFgSFOLvMPz2A&cbp=12,352.64,,0,4.29

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=fiddes&hl=en&ll=56.917998,-2.324595&spn=0.012673,0.042272&sll=56.922871,-2.312086&sspn=0.00609,0.021136&t=h&z=15&layer=c&cbll=56.917916,-2.324933&panoid=IrqNHUpPUVHYqwKhh945ow&cbp=12,19.33,,0,0.55

ardmacha · 28-06-2011 12:25PM

Well the A1 Dublin-Belfast route between Sheepbridge and Loughbrickland was dualled in this way about 6 years ago, so you are being a bit harsh on policies in Cork 25 years previously.

marmurr1916 · 28-06-2011 03:15PM

That section of dual-carriageway on the N25 has been there a lot longer than 25 years. It's probably well over 40 years old by now.

In fairness to the NRA (only set up in 1992!), they don't allow that type of dual-carriageway on national routes anymore.

Even 2+2 dual-carriageways don't have right-hand turns or multiple private accesses.

The only dual-carriageways left like that in Ireland on national routes are described as 'legacy dual-carriageways' by the NRA and were all built several decades ago.

L1011 · 28-06-2011 03:52PM

marmurr1916 wrote: »

The only dual-carriageways left like that in Ireland on national routes are described as 'legacy dual-carriageways' by the NRA and were all built several decades ago.

Except N4 Downs which dates from the last decade...

marmurr1916 · 28-06-2011 03:56PM

MYOB wrote: »

Except N4 Downs which dates from the last decade...

I though that was originally built in the early 1990s, before the NRA was set up?

Aidan1 · 28-06-2011 04:05PM

In reality, there are very few sections of DC in the country as old as that one - and most of those have been heavily reworked, like the N7 from Naas to Newlands Cross - which actually used to be of a better standard than this is now. As already mentioned, there were (well, still are) plans in place to completely upgrade that section of the N25 to a similar standard to section of the N7 mentioned above, but the project fell foul both of the Amgen pull-out and of the timing of the downturn. It is being resurfaced at present, but that will do little to deal with the houses with entrances directly onto it, the junctions, or the sightlines.

I remember being told that the road was built in the early 1960s, around the same time as the Oil Refinery was built (the R630 from Midleton to Whitegate was dramatically upgraded at the same time apparently). That seems a little early, but it's not beyond the realms of the possible.

L1011 · 28-06-2011 04:06PM

marmurr1916 wrote: »

I though that was originally built in the early 1990s, before the NRA was set up?

Nope. Built in a horrible hurry when they realised there was going to be a gap between the M4 PPP and the Mullingar Bypass.

marmurr1916 · 28-06-2011 04:15PM

MYOB wrote: »

Nope. Built in a horrible hurry when they realised there was going to be a gap between the M4 PPP and the Mullingar Bypass.

I didn't realise that. Bit of a screw-up by the NRA. Still, at least it's the only section of national route dual-carriageway built to that crappy standard on the NRA's watch. Or is it...?

At least dual-carriageways of this type in Ireland are generally restricted to 100km/h and have hard shoulders.

In the UK, they're mainly without hard shoulders and usually have a 70mph limit.

L1011 · 28-06-2011 04:36PM

Nearly sure there's only three of that standard left on N roads in the entire country - N4, N25, N71 (and minimal anywhere else, there's a bit on the R445 for instance)

marmurr1916 · 28-06-2011 04:58PM

MYOB wrote: »

Nearly sure there's only three of that standard left on N roads in the entire country - N4, N25, N71 (and minimal anywhere else, there's a bit on the R445 for instance)

I know that bit of the N71 well. From what I can see, it looks like a narrow, winding section of single-carriageway, with lots of houses fronting on to it, was due to be replaced by a fairly straight and wide section of single-carriageway.

Unfortunately, it looks like someone from Cork County Council had the not-so-bright idea to make the straight section of single-carriageway into the westbound carriageway of a dual-carriageway, and the narrow, winding bit into the Cork-bound carriageway.

The resulting dual-carriageway has thus got one of the most dangerous sections of carriageway (despite the fairly minor improvements made to the Cork-bound side) of any dual-carriageway in the country.

This was originally built long before the NRA ever existed.

There are still a few dodgy entrances onto the N18 between Limerick and Bunratty, another section of dual-carriageway originally built in the 1960s:

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=limerick&hl=en&ll=52.692928,-8.787174&spn=0.02549,0.169086&z=13&layer=c&cbll=52.692968,-8.787121&panoid=GD7PSmVrbuO2FKEKNyuo9A&cbp=11,26.68,,0,8.95

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=limerick&hl=en&ll=52.693695,-8.757906&spn=0.003186,0.021136&z=16&layer=c&cbll=52.693697,-8.757913&panoid=aZH37fooCUFnjKYm6n3a-w&cbp=11,90.77,,0,6.31

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=limerick&hl=en&ll=52.693258,-8.757201&spn=0.000886,0.002642&z=19&layer=c&cbll=52.693305,-8.757368&panoid=RRcwAGFMc-ZpTVdXPbA5cw&cbp=12,264.93,,0,10.69

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=limerick&hl=en&ll=52.693112,-8.756715&spn=0.000886,0.002642&z=19&layer=c&cbll=52.693064,-8.756555&panoid=y2OixTystTx95YJ4K_SvnA&cbp=12,263.47,,0,9.78

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=limerick&hl=en&ll=52.692754,-8.755586&spn=0.000886,0.002642&z=19&layer=c&cbll=52.692699,-8.755416&panoid=zegDlBwV8FRNPYWmrdiSiA&cbp=12,82.74,,0,9.41

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=limerick&hl=en&ll=52.689429,-8.744814&spn=0.000398,0.002642&z=19&layer=c&cbll=52.689361,-8.74448&panoid=M-cCHknc-6GozKqATaGqVA&cbp=11,287.16,,0,4.29

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=limerick&hl=en&ll=52.685098,-8.725762&spn=0.006374,0.042272&z=15&layer=c&cbll=52.685095,-8.725756&panoid=kKQ_yCDXmJtGAbnPJRd-7A&cbp=11,347,,0,1.83

L1011 · 28-06-2011 05:09PM

Forgot that bit of the N18.

The NRA plans to leave Chetwynd much as it is and actually extend the DC - using modern standards - each direction, type 1 to the SRR and type 2 to Halfway...

marmurr1916 · 28-06-2011 05:36PM

Glad to hear that.

In the meantime, I don't see why they can't simply do a bit of painting and signing so that what's currently the west-bound carriageway of that stretch of the N71 becomes a two-way single carriageway, with the Cork-bound carriageway reduced to a service road for the adjacent houses.

I presume this was the original intention anyway until someone decided to turn it into a dodgy dual-carriageway.

This is part of the dual-carriageway section of the R445 between Naas and Newbridge that you referred to:

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=limerick&hl=en&ll=53.201762,-6.754941&spn=0.050384,0.338173&z=12&layer=c&cbll=53.201762,-6.754941&panoid=y6auSq6Sfv1QqFsKgSWy3g&cbp=11,221.71,,0,3.7

It used to be part of the N7.

Before the construction of the Naas bypass, it was about as good a stretch of road as you'd get in Ireland which had only two/three dual-carriageways of any significant length: the N7 Naas dual-carriageway, the N11 Stillorgan dual-carriageway and the Limerick to Hurler's Cross (junction of N18 and N19) dual-carriageway.

The N7 dual-carriageway went as far as the outskirts of Newbridge (on the Dublin side) but you still had to get through Naas (using ordinary streets), at least before the bypass was built.

That was the last bit of dual-carriageway between Dublin and the Tivoli dual-carriageway in Cork city.

Similarly, there was no dual-carriageway bypass of Bunratty.

The N18 dual-carriageway from Limerick stopped on the outskirts of Bunratty, started up again after a mile or so after you had driven through Bunratty, ending at Hurler's Cross.

It's easy to criticise the condition of national primary routes now, but they were far, far worse in the not too distant past.

L1011 · 28-06-2011 05:43PM

When was the Curragh DC built? It was the last pre-motorway, pre-MIU attempt at dualling on the way to Cork/Limerick.

It is now of course part of the M7, but still visibly much older than the adjoining bits.

marmurr1916 · 28-06-2011 05:48PM

I'd forgotten about that. Maybe late 1980s? Certainly after the Naas bypass was built.

L1011 · 28-06-2011 05:54PM

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/1986/02/05/00021.asp mentioned as open in Feb 86 here. Doubt it was open long though.

Kildare CC seem to have planned the M4 and M7 close to how they stand now in the 1970s going on dates given for the Kildare BP permission.

FGR · 29-06-2011 03:28PM

Wait..they've finally decided to resurface the carriageway?

I suppose the NRA are anticipating a lack of funding for the next ten years otherwise they wouldn't be doing this without the grade separating of junctions?

Aidan1 · 29-06-2011 04:29PM

Who knows, but the bad weather last winter meant that the surface had gotten extremely bad. The wearing course was almost completely gone in places, and given that there's over 30,000 movements per day on it, it was only a matter of time before (a) the surface was responsible for a very serious accident, and (b) structural damage was done to the supporting layers.

From what I say over the weekend, they appear to be resurfacing whole sections in some areas, and then only shorter badly affected areas (40-50 metre stretches) in other places, which would suggest that this is only a medium term solution, before the actual grade separation is done.

I thought the CPOs for the upgrade was published recently? If so, it would suggest that there is still at least some movement on it (even if it's years away in terms of priority).

FGR · 29-06-2011 06:00PM

Let's hope they've thought ahead then and haven't put down 'patches' that will come undone next winter.

The 'excellent' work they did on the killeagh-castlemartyr road springs to mind.

Carawaystick · 29-06-2011 08:01PM

MYOB wrote: »

Nope. Built in a horrible hurry when they realised there was going to be a gap between the M4 PPP and the Mullingar Bypass.

The downs sectionwas built long before theM4 to Kinnegad
It was the gap to McNeads bridge that was rushed through. That's why this (McNeads) has noprivate accesses or at grade crossings

L1011 · 29-06-2011 08:17PM

Carawaystick wrote: »

The downs sectionwas built long before theM4 to Kinnegad
It was the gap to McNeads bridge that was rushed through. That's why this (McNeads) has noprivate accesses or at grade crossings

It was open for two years at most before the M4 PPP.

edit: actually three years it seems. However it went to construction only after the M4 PPP was being planned.

Victor · 29-06-2011 11:44PM

MYOB wrote: »

When was the Curragh DC built? It was the last pre-motorway, pre-MIU attempt at dualling on the way to Cork/Limerick.

I think it may have been built as part of the Newbridge Bypass.

JupiterKid · 30-06-2011 02:42AM

There was a very short, straight section of DC on the N7 at the Curragh. I remember it being built around the time the M7 Naas bypass opened so I reckon it dates to about 1984/5.

It was built about 8 years before the Newbridge bypass section opened and replaced a very, very narrow stretch of the N7. It has since been incorporated into the M7.

L1011 · 30-06-2011 05:06PM

Victor wrote: »

I think it may have been built as part of the Newbridge Bypass.

Definitely predates it by at least 8 years - there are references to it being open in 1986 and the Newbridge BP opened in 1994.

You can also tell its older by the different and older design of the overbridges on it.

invinciblePRSTV · 01-07-2011 11:04AM

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Glad to hear that.

In the meantime, I don't see why they can't simply do a bit of painting and signing so that what's currently the west-bound carriageway of that stretch of the N71 becomes a two-way single carriageway, with the Cork-bound carriageway reduced to a service road for the adjacent houses.

I presume this was the original intention anyway until someone decided to turn it into a dodgy dual-carriageway.

What a truly awful, terrible suggestion. I can safely say Marmurr you have spent little or no time driving this section of the N71 for if you had you'd realise your suggestion would add significantly to gridlock which already exists on that particular stretch you mention on the approach into Cork city.

The N71s AADTs range from nearly 30k to low teens between Bandon & Cork. So, unlike the N25 section being discussed in this thread, or other roads with lower AADTs which have had patronage bestowed upon them, the N71 has received very modest upgrades over the past two decades, your suggestion would be very much a retrograde step.

marmurr1916 · 02-07-2011 11:50AM

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

What a truly awful, terrible suggestion. I can safely say Marmurr you have spent little or no time driving this section of the N71 for if you had you'd realise your suggestion would add significantly to gridlock which already exists on that particular stretch you mention on the approach into Cork city.

The N71s AADTs range from nearly 30k to low teens between Bandon & Cork. So, unlike the N25 section being discussed in this thread, or other roads with lower AADTs which have had patronage bestowed upon them, the N71 has received very modest upgrades over the past two decades, your suggestion would be very much a retrograde step.

The Cork-bound carriageway of that Mickey Mouse excuse for a dual-carriageway is unsafe.

I don't think getting rid of a 1.9km section which has single-carriageway at either end is going to make a huge difference to that route.

If the dual-carriageway exetended as far as the Bandon Road roundabout you might have a point.

However, since this 'dual-carriageway' ends well short of the roundabout, with the road narrowing to a single-carriageway bottleneck, getting rid of this pathetic excuse for a dual-carriageway is hardly going to make much of a difference.

Maybe you should complain to the NRA and Cork Co. Council - they might get their act together and replace it with a proper dual-carriageway.

Here's some Google streetview images of the Cork-bound carriageway:

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Halfway,+Cork,+Ireland&hl=en&ll=51.84417,-8.530755&spn=0.00749,0.021136&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=14.693358,43.286133&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.844272,-8.530681&panoid=Tiyj3Tn77Qmr_LHubHToXg&cbp=12,32.19,,0,0.64

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Halfway,+Cork,+Ireland&hl=en&ll=51.84527,-8.529811&spn=0.00749,0.021136&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=14.693358,43.286133&t=h&layer=c&cbll=51.845375,-8.52972&panoid=E5ySk1itKD9fPyCgJykHPA&cbp=12,41.78,,0,0.64&z=16

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Halfway,+Cork,+Ireland&hl=en&ll=51.846065,-8.529081&spn=0.00749,0.021136&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=14.693358,43.286133&t=h&layer=c&cbll=51.846155,-8.52898&panoid=UpPPiqQrRsxJRHkYQ7U3ow&cbp=12,53.66,,0,0.82&z=16

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Halfway,+Cork,+Ireland&hl=en&ll=51.847417,-8.528008&spn=0.007489,0.021136&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=14.693358,43.286133&t=h&layer=c&cbll=51.847518,-8.527969&panoid=1XaM-ZH-VrP6gJfKNfL2hQ&cbp=12,37.49,,0,2.19&z=16

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Halfway,+Cork,+Ireland&hl=en&ll=51.848451,-8.52773&spn=0.007489,0.021136&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=14.693358,43.286133&t=h&layer=c&cbll=51.848546,-8.527724&panoid=sIX98WY6Wr0Rr0mcYr86dw&cbp=12,359.84,,0,7.22&z=16

Multiple private accesses, terrible sight lines, sharp bends, one section with no hard shoulder, a T-junction with a boreen, and all in about 1.9km.

http://maps.google.ie/maps?saddr=Bandon+Rd%2FN71&daddr=Bandon+Rd%2FN71&hl=en&ll=51.852892,-8.527365&spn=0.007489,0.021136&sll=51.857544,-8.527751&sspn=0.007488,0.021136&geocode=FdAHFwMdss99_w%3BFadIFwMd0d19_w&mra=dme&mrsp=1&sz=16&t=h&z=16

http://maps.google.ie/maps?saddr=Bandon+Rd%2FN71&daddr=Bandon+Rd%2FN71&hl=en&ll=51.849936,-8.526506&spn=0.029956,0.084543&sll=51.857544,-8.527751&sspn=0.007488,0.021136&geocode=FdAHFwMdss99_w%3BFadIFwMd0d19_w&mra=dme&mrsp=1&sz=16&t=h&z=14

N25 Cork to Midleton "Dual Carrigeway" question

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