Few questions regarding TSM - Maths and Economics: Chance to convince me against UCD!

sdiff · 23-06-2011 12:36PM #1

Just finished fifth year in the institute, so I'm at the stage where I need to focus on what I'm doing in college.

I'm a very mathematical person, and I love rising to the challenge of a difficult maths problem, so I've no doubt I want maths of some sort to be included in my uni course. I'm also interested in current affairs, politics and economics so economics seems like a good choice. The TSM course - Maths and economics seems like a good choice! However there's also the actuarial course in UCD. I'm interested in actuary and while this course would no doubt lead to a good career in actuary, I don't want to be tied to one career route! Therefore maths and economics seems a better idea in ways. Points isn't an issue as I'll probably be going for full. I'm doing Applied Maths, Economics, Physics, Chemistry, Maths, English, and German at Higher and Irish at ordinary. Few questions though:

-Maths and Economics wont tie me down to one career. Does this have an unwanted side effects of reducing my employability? I'd hate to be grouped in with the orts crowd who do a useless degree to have a 3-4 year bender! is it a respected degree in jobs like actuary, investment banking, other finance jobs, economics and maybe even politician? (Or is the degree not as important as the I'll scratch your back you scratch mine cronyism and populism)

-Scholarship: The foundation scholarship looks really interesting and is deifnitely something I'd want to do. If anybody has general experience with it feel free to chime in! I understand it's standard practice to go for it in second (SF) year but it has been done in JF year. With an interest in extra curricular maths and economics and a good work ethic and "academic masochism" do I stand a chance at getting it in JF year? If not how hard is it to get in SF year? If I became a foundation scholar, mantained a really good GPA, first degree honours all round etc. how would my Maths and economics degree compare with the likes of Oxbridge, LSE and ivy league schools to employers? This is mainly if I wanted to go into investment bankings as I heard that the big investment banks look down on colleges that arent oxbridge/ivy league/LSE.

Thanks in advance!

andrew · 23-06-2011 01:43PM

sdiff wrote: »

-Maths and Economics wont tie me down to one career. Does this have an unwanted side effects of reducing my employability? I'd hate to be grouped in with the orts crowd who do a useless degree to have a 3-4 year bender! is it a respected degree in jobs like actuary, investment banking, other finance jobs, economics and maybe even politician? (Or is the degree not as important as the I'll scratch your back you scratch mine cronyism and populism)

Maths and Economics, is, as far as I know, the best economics degree you can get in Ireland*. there's no way you'll be lumped in with 'orts' people, and it's well respected. And yes, degree is important (not that 'networking' isn't).

-Scholarship: The foundation scholarship looks really interesting and is deifnitely something I'd want to do. If anybody has general experience with it feel free to chime in! I understand it's standard practice to go for it in second (SF) year but it has been done in JF year. With an interest in extra curricular maths and economics and a good work ethic and "academic masochism" do I stand a chance at getting it in JF year? If not how hard is it to get in SF year? If I became a foundation scholar, mantained a really good GPA, first degree honours all round etc. how would my Maths and economics degree compare with the likes of Oxbridge, LSE and ivy league schools to employers? This is mainly if I wanted to go into investment bankings as I heard that the big investment banks look down on colleges that arent oxbridge/ivy league/LSE.

Thanks in advance!

Regarding schols, just go for it in SF. There's no good reason to try to go for it in JF, and no matter how much of a masochist you are, you're unlikely to get it.

I'm not too sure about the second question. Obviously, there are better colleges out there, and better economics departments too. So if you can get into a more highly rated college, do. That said, if you actually did that well in college, then you shouldn't have much problem getting work with a decent investment bank; I know of a few people who have done exactly that.

* FYI, I don't study maths and economics.

sdiff · 23-06-2011 01:49PM

andrew wrote: »

Maths and Economics, is, as far as I know, the best economics degree you can get in Ireland*. there's no way you'll be lumped in with 'orts' people, and it's well respected. And yes, degree is important (not that 'networking' isn't).

Regarding schols, just go for it in SF. There's no good reason to try to go for it in JF, and no matter how much of a masochist you are, you're unlikely to get it.

I'm not too sure about the second question. Obviously, there are better colleges out there, and better economics departments too. So if you can get into a more highly rated college, do. That said, if you actually did that well in college, then you shouldn't have much problem getting work with a decent investment bank; I know of a few people who have done exactly that.

* FYI, I don't study maths and economics.

Thanks for the reply. I might be able to get into a better college but it would include a hefty debt which I do not want, as opposed to the ~2000 euros a year I get if I'm awarded a foundation schol, so unless the snobbishness I've heard about big investment banking firms is true (a geography degree in oxbridge is better then a maths and economics degree somewhere else) trinity would be preferable.

Liquorice · 23-06-2011 02:22PM

Good on you for being so motivated so early on. I'm not a maths/econ grad but I am a TSM grad-to-be and the myth that most arts students take it easy for four years is, well, a myth. You'll have competitively-minded classmates and the wasters that do exist shouldn't have any bearing on you or your degree outcome.

I'm hugely in favour of diversifying in your undergrad even if you have a set career path in mind - it gives you a broad skill base which you can apply to your own interests, rather than learning the same skills in an applied manner. Plus if you get schols, and feel you're not equipped for a particular career once fourth year rolls around you can apply for a masters or other postgrad to bring yourself up to standard.

sdiff · 23-06-2011 02:32PM

Liquorice wrote: »

Good on you for being so motivated so early on. I'm not a maths/econ grad but I am a TSM grad-to-be and the myth that most arts students take it easy for four years is, well, a myth. You'll have competitively-minded classmates and the wasters that do exist shouldn't have any bearing on you or your degree outcome.

I'm hugely in favour of diversifying in your undergrad even if you have a set career path in mind - it gives you a broad skill base which you can apply to your own interests, rather than learning the same skills in an applied manner. Plus if you get schols, and feel you're not equipped for a particular career once fourth year rolls around you can apply for a masters or other postgrad to bring yourself up to standard.

Another good, informative reply, I'd rep the two of ye but there doesn't seem to be a rep system here. Thanks anyway

aas · 23-06-2011 02:38PM

Please go to UCD.

Doug Cartel · 23-06-2011 04:35PM

If you can get into the LSE, go there. You'll regret it if you don't.

PurpleFistMixer · 23-06-2011 06:10PM

sdiff wrote: »

With an interest in extra curricular maths and economics and a good work ethic and "academic masochism" do I stand a chance at getting it in JF year?

I would say I have the above (if you replace economics with physics), and I wouldn't have gone for it in first year. Maybe if you're a massive masochist though, it might be possible. You'd have to teach yourself the second year material, while doing first year, to a sufficiently high standard. A lot of people fail to get it in second year even so you'd have to be very exceptional to pull it off. That said, maybe you are! I would personally recommend doing it in second year, though.

Pet · 23-06-2011 06:20PM

With regards to the thread title: The supposed UCD-Trinity rivalry is pretty one-sided. I've never heard anyone badmouthing UCD in all my time in Trinity. So, nobody will care if you decide otherwise and go from the Institute to UCD (you'll become just another statistic tbh).

sdiff · 23-06-2011 06:32PM

Pet wrote: »

With regards to the thread title: The supposed UCD-Trinity rivalry is pretty one-sided. I've never heard anyone badmouthing UCD in all my time in Trinity. So, nobody will care if you decide otherwise and go from the Institute to UCD (you'll become just another statistic tbh).

It was mainly a joke.

purplefistmixer wrote:

I would say I have the above (if you replace economics with physics), and I wouldn't have gone for it in first year. Maybe if you're a massive masochist though, it might be possible. You'd have to teach yourself the second year material, while doing first year, to a sufficiently high standard. A lot of people fail to get it in second year even so you'd have to be very exceptional to pull it off. That said, maybe you are! I would personally recommend doing it in second year, though.

Did you attempt the schols in JF year? if you did, just curious a) how much study did you do, b) what result did you get?

deconduo · 23-06-2011 06:50PM

Here are a sample of last years schols papers if you want to take a look yourself:
http://www.tcd.ie/Local/Exam_Papers/2010/30/3009.pdf
http://www.tcd.ie/Local/Exam_Papers/2010/30/3042.pdf

Sir Ophiuchus · 23-06-2011 07:43PM

There's also a very good Schols thread a few pages down this forum.

23-06-2011 07:48PM

Doug Cartel wrote: »

If you can get into the LSE, go there. You'll regret it if you don't.

+1

Aoibheann · 23-06-2011 08:42PM

I'll have to +1 the recommendations to avoid schols in first year. It's technically possible in first year, but it's a struggle in second year even when you have the material covered and most people don't get it. A few of them (myself included) are masochistic enough to consider trying again in third year.. >.>

I'll just go through the paper that TSM students have to sit. The modules covered by this paper are the following (for Single-Honour students at least):

MA2223 - Metric Spaces. Second year, semester 1.
MA1121 - Linear Algebra. First year, semester 1.
MA1214 - Intro to Group Theory. First year, semester 2.
MA2215 - Fields, Rings and Modules. Second year, semester 1.

So, out of the four of these, you'll have one module covered in class by the time Schol exams come around (which will be in early January, before the second semester). It's a lot to ask to pick up a further three, and the questions on them can be rather nasty. To be fair, there is a slight difference in the questions TSMs have to answer on this paper when compared with Single-Honour students - both answer sections A and B, but TSMs answer D where pure Maths do C. Section D seems rather easier and may involve actually answering on the Advanced Calculus module (first year, semester 1) instead of the Fields course, but I'm not sure if that's the case.

If you're prepared to put in the work to take up 2/3 modules to the level that Schols requires (generally supposed to be more difficult than annual exams), then by all means attempt it. I honestly wouldn't recommend it, as you may find the change in how Maths is taught from secondary to third level difficult to get used to and there's plenty of work to be doing in your first semester - you'll have regular analysis and linear algebra assignments, weekly tutorial problems in advanced calculus and I'm sure there's stats assignments too.

However, if you do decide to go ahead with the course and sitting schols, give me a shout. I'll be sitting that same exam and I'd be happy to help out on the notes front.

EuropeanSon · 23-06-2011 09:58PM

If you need convincing that Trinity is better than UCD, you don't deserve to go to Trinity.

On a separate note, Trinity is 15th in the world for Maths. 'Nuff said.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/education/trinity-ranked-as-15th-best-in-world-for-maths-155014.html

PurpleFistMixer · 23-06-2011 11:16PM

sdiff wrote: »

Did you attempt the schols in JF year? if you did, just curious a) how much study did you do, b) what result did you get?

Nah, I did in second year. Studied more than I ever had up to that point (didn't study much for the LC), did pretty well. 11-11 sort of days though.

antiselfdual · 24-06-2011 12:22AM

EuropeanSon wrote: »

On a separate note, Trinity is 15th in the world for Maths. 'Nuff said.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/education/trinity-ranked-as-15th-best-in-world-for-maths-155014.html

On this note I'm convinced that's a mistake... See the discrepancies between the list and this accompanying article (which puts TCD 23rd, which is of course a very good ranking too). Anyway rankings in general deserve much pinching of salt.

In relation to other points: doing Schols in 1st year is not going to work out well, really, and if you're worried about employability of TCD versus more renowned universities I expect postgrad courses in the latter would help bridge such a gap (not that I have any experience with real world jobs).

Doug Cartel · 24-06-2011 03:34PM

antiselfdual wrote: »

In relation to other points: doing Schols in 1st year is not going to work out well, really, and if you're worried about employability of TCD versus more renowned universities I expect postgrad courses in the latter would help bridge such a gap (not that I have any experience with real world jobs).

Postgrad is always a good option, though I think it depends on the subject. I went to an NUI my undergrad (ComSci + Maths), and then did an MSc in a Russell Group university in the UK. Back when I had a real job, I can tell you that MSc got me a lot more recognition than my BSc, and I feel it was not due to it being a higher level qualification, but simple brand recognition.

One thing about the postgrads though, is that I don't think it gets you into the same kind of old-boy network as if you were an undergrad. I know that kind of BS is supposed to be a thing of the past, but I think it's still a potential issue.

sdiff · 09-07-2011 08:39PM

Just another question I have. I see there's patterns A and B - I've been looking on the website but I'm wondering from someone who has experience of TSM, Do either of these result in a "better" degree? I presume I'll be given more information throughout my time at Trinity but I'm never good at making choices like these - Choice A or B and then possibly mathematics or economics. I'm inclined towards studying both for four years but some insight from a current/past student would be awesome.

d93c2inhxfok4y · 10-07-2011 04:07PM

+1 to the 'don't do schols in first year' brigade. There is absolutely no benefit to sitting them during your JF year. You may think that sitting them early is a better route, the more hard-working option, but it honestly isn't. Work hard for first year, then sit them in second year, when the material you'll need to know for schols will align with your actual regular coursework, and you'll have all of first year's material down and under your belt.

If you would be able to study very hard in first year and get schols, then there's no doubt you can do it in second year, too. Whilst there is some benefit in having it a year earlier, it really would just be a huge waste of time and energy. Sit it in second year, for sure. There's a reason this is the done thing - it's genuinely the best, most sensible way of going about it.

languagenerd · 12-07-2011 12:03AM

Schols in first year? Not worth it. It covers all of first year and half of second year, you'd be trying to sit it having only done half of first year and possibly having never done a college exam before.

On an unrelated note, I'd be wary of calling an Arts degree "useless", by the way. If you do choose TSM, many of your classmates will be doing an arts or humanities subject as their other one (languages, history, philosophy, sociology) and they won't take kindly to you referring to their degree as such. Oh and referring to it as "orts" is more associated with UCD than TCD.

NeuroCat · 12-07-2011 12:15AM

Schols in first year? Not worth it. It covers all of first year and half of second year, you'd be trying to sit it having only done half of first year and possibly having never done a college exam before.

This isn't true for some courses as far as I'm aware. In science I know that the schols exams are based solely on 2nd year material.

I think if you are determined to do it, there is no harm at all in trying. You are at a disadvantage though given that you wont be studying the coursework in class.

languagenerd · 12-07-2011 12:18AM

NeuroCat wrote: »

This isn't true for some courses as far as I'm aware. In science I know that the schols exams are based solely on 2nd year material.

I think if you are determined to do it, there is no harm at all in trying. You are at a disadvantage though given that you wont be studying the coursework in class.

Ah, right, sorry. I'm in TSM and it's all JF and half of SF. In that case, it'd be even harder though, no?

NeuroCat · 12-07-2011 01:07AM

Well, I don't think there has been a JF scholar in science in a long time. A lot of people prefer to wait until third year to try them in most cases. There is often trouble getting information regarding the exams (until after the deadline at which point they do discuss them).

Craguls · 12-07-2011 10:50AM

languagenerd wrote: »

Ah, right, sorry. I'm in TSM and it's all JF and half of SF. In that case, it'd be even harder though, no?

The material covered by schols varies from course to course. It's worth acknowledging though, that although first year material may not be examined, it's likely going to be the foundation of whatever you'll need to learn for the exams.

Few questions regarding TSM - Maths and Economics: Chance to convince me against UCD!

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