What is a female point of view/perspective?

Dudess · 18-06-2011 05:40PM

Yep K-9 - looks suspiciously like they're on a wind-up, but I'm hungover and haven't the energy to get off the net. :pac:

Raekwon wrote: »

I did read your post. You post the following

How do the first two posts you quoted contradict each other?

Why is it bizarre?

It's bizarre that you lay the blame of those threads being closed solely at the women who get annoyed by comments like "Irish women are up their own arses" and not also at the people who post them.

To answer your question, it is the same female posters who make the same objections over and over again to any posts that they don't agree with

Ah now, you know there's much more to it than them merely disagreeing with the posts.
And how are they feminist? What's feminism got to do with it? Surely a woman doesn't have to be a feminist (meaning around here: irrational, man-hating, even though that's not always what it means) to get irked by such generalisations re women?

There's nothing wrong with a man saying he experiences hostility a lot from Irish women, but comments like "Irish women are up their own holes" are completely uncalled for, and any reasonable person, man or woman, would not find it difficult to see that.

Latchy · 18-06-2011 05:44PM

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

My understanding of the Ladies Lounge was that woman post in a "safe" place without worrying about people coming on to them, or posting "get back in the kitchen"-type posts that happen in other forums, and that men are welcome to post once they bear that in mind.

That quote in TLL about '' this forum is not a pick up joint for males '' ( or words to that affect ) is very off putting

Silverfish · 18-06-2011 05:51PM

Latchy wrote: »

That quote in TLL about '' this forum is not a pick up joint for males '' ( or words to that affect ) is very off putting

This one?

4) Post pick up lines, flirty come-ons, requests for pics, or dating profiles. Yes, we take this rule seriously. No, do not pm us and accuse us of having no sense of humour. It's not personal. It's not us picking on you. It's the rules. There are other forums you can use to do this, they have different rules, and their rules do not apply here. Do not draw comparisons.

In response to some men who posted personal ads?

It's off-putting?

Thread is now ridiculous, tbh.

Jazzy · 18-06-2011 05:53PM

Silverfish wrote: »

Thread is now ridiculous, tbh.

bull****. this thread has been ridiculous for ages

Raekwon · 18-06-2011 05:54PM

Dudess wrote: »

How do the first two posts you quoted contradict each other?

And you are accusing me of being on a wind-up

Dudess wrote: »

It's bizarre that you lay the blame of those threads being closed solely at the women who get annoyed by comments like "Irish women are up their own arses" and not also at the people who post them.

This is going around in circles so I'll end with this. I made a comment in one of those 'Irish women are blah' threads in AH saying simply "In before Irish female posters get this locked". Several hours later and several pages on you single out my post and attack me over 'pushing my agenda'. Because of your initial over the top reaction and unwarranted aggression the thread spirals out of control, gets locked and everyone involved gets banned........except for you! :rolleyes:

Silverfish · 18-06-2011 05:58PM

I don't think arguments between posters regarding After Hours are anything to do with the Ladies Lounge so can you please keep the personal spats out of it.

HellFireClub · 18-06-2011 06:00PM

Dudess wrote: »

Yep K-9 - looks suspiciously like they're on a wind-up,

Yet again you seem to be unable to post on here without resorting to the usual scheming when people are not agreeing with you, this time accusing posters on here who are guilty of absolutely nothing other than having a different opinion than you, of trying to wind you up or somehow draw you into a confrontation that is not in the sprit of the forum.

HellFireClub · 18-06-2011 06:02PM

Silverfish wrote: »

I don't think arguments between posters regarding After Hours are anything to do with the Ladies Lounge so can you please keep the personal spats out of it.

It's indicitiative of the same "my way or the highway" attitude that is causing gender based conflict on the site.

K-9 · 18-06-2011 06:06PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

Yet again you seem to be unable to post on here without resorting to the usual scheming when people are not agreeing with you, this time accusing posters on here who are guilty of absolutely nothing other than having a different opinion than you, of trying to wind you up or somehow draw you into a confrontation that is not in the sprit of the forum.

She is agreeing with you in the main. The only difference being you seem to want to be able to rant about Irish women whereas she sees the need for a little tact.

HellFireClub · 18-06-2011 06:13PM

K-9 wrote: »

She is agreeing with you in the main. The only difference being you seem to want to be able to rant about Irish women whereas she sees the need for a little tact.

No she is utterly contradicting herself and at this stage she is arguing over a form of words as opposed to anything of argumentative substance at all.

I accept that a lot of Irish women think that Irish men are mammy's boys, they are entitled to that view and I would never dare interfere with it, or at least if I was going to discuss it, it wouldn't be on the basis of me getting up on my high horse and taking offence from the get to and trying to shout people down, and getting theads locked.

Silverfish · 18-06-2011 06:15PM

What has that got to do with the moderation of tLL?

HellFireClub · 18-06-2011 06:21PM

Silverfish wrote: »

What has that got to do with the moderation of tLL?

Well the last time I posted there, I noticed the same cat like paranoia going on, the same irrational assumptions in place, that seemed to be saying that any guy in the place basically had to be supervised, (before you go searching for my posts in TLL, it was under a different username previous to the time the site was hacked and down for a few days).

Anyway, I don't go near TLL now, and whatever goes on there doesn't interest me in the slightest. My issue is when the same irrationality starts creeping into other forums.

Dudess · 18-06-2011 06:24PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

Yet again you seem to be unable to post on here without resorting to the usual scheming when people are not agreeing with you, this time accusing posters on here who are guilty of absolutely nothing other than having a different opinion than you, of trying to wind you up or somehow draw you into a confrontation that is not in the sprit of the forum.

Way more to it than a difference of opinion - it's you and Raekwon ignoring points I've made, putting words in my mouth, twisting points I've made. Very lazy and disingenuous to say it's merely a difference of opinion.

HellFireClub wrote: »

No she is utterly contradicting herself

Nope, I am absolutely not. Find me one instance of it. I've backed myself up and explained myself over and over.

I accept that a lot of Irish women think that Irish men are mammy's boys, they are entitled to that view and I would never dare interfere with it, or at least if I was going to discuss it, it wouldn't be on the basis of me getting up on my high horse and taking offence from the get to and trying to shout people down, and getting theads locked.

This is why I think you're on a wind-up - despite me repeatedly agreeing a lot of Irish women can be bitches, you're pretending I'm disagreeing with it. If a woman said "Irish men are mammy's boys" that would be a stupid, unfair generalisation. If she said "In my experience, a lot of Irish men are mammy's boys" (not my experience btw) then fair enough, her experience. That's what I'm saying the whole time and I really don't get how you can't/won't grasp it. Is it any wonder I think you're on a wind-up?!

You guys just keep blatantly discrediting my points that I've supported all the way and tried to keep fair, yet I'M the one who's being unreasonable?

K-9 · 18-06-2011 06:25PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

No she is utterly contradicting herself and at this stage she is arguing over a form of words as opposed to anything of argumentative substance at all.

I accept that a lot of Irish women think that Irish men are mammy's boys, they are entitled to that view and I would never dare interfere with it, or at least if I was going to discuss it, it wouldn't be on the basis of me getting up on my high horse and taking offence from the get to and trying to shout people down, and getting theads locked.

Some people are arseholes, some happen to be men, some women.

Why people continue to see this as a more Irish or female or male thing I don't know, but anyway.

Is this the type of stuff you'd want in a private forum?

Silverfish · 18-06-2011 06:32PM

The Ladies Lounge moderators have no control over what people who post in tLL do in other forums.

If you have an issue with other posters, report the post.

HellFireClub · 18-06-2011 06:32PM

Dudess wrote: »

Way more to it than a difference of opinion - it's you and Raekwon ignoring points I've made, putting words in my mouth, twisting points I've made. Very lazy and disingenuous to say it's merely a difference of opinion.

Nope, I am absolutely not. Find me one instance of it. I've backed myself up and explained myself over and over.

This is why I think you're on a wind-up - despite me repeatedly agreeing a lot of Irish women can be bitches, you're pretending I'm disagreeing with it. If a woman said "Irish men are mammy's boys" that would be a stupid, unfair generalisation. If she said "In my experience, a lot of Irish men are mammy's boys" (not my experience btw) then fair enough, her experience. That's what I'm saying the whole time and I really don't get how you can't/won't grasp it. Is it any wonder I think you're on a wind-up?!

You guys just keep blatantly discrediting my points that I've supported all the way and tried to keep fair, yet I'M the one who's being unreasonable?

You are being super sensitive. You are completely hung up on trying to impose and enforce a politically correct form of words that I have no intention of adopting, because rather than accept the views of other people, (which might be completely ignorant in my case albeit grounded in facts as I see them), you think that you can somehow dictate to other people what they should say or how they should think.

If someone thinks all Irish men are arsehóles or mammy's boys, I don't get hung up on that because people have the right to hold and express opinions that might cause them to lose faith in Irish men or Irish women.

There isn't a man or a woman who doesn't think that the last government were a crowd of arsehóles, but as you'd probably agree with that statement, I imagine you wouldn't object to the generalisation. My point remains, that just because you don't agree with the generalisation, does not automatically make it an invalid one, regardless of how prejudicial or ignorant it might at first sound...

Dudess · 18-06-2011 06:56PM

Fine. You think "Irish women are bitches" is an ok way to post, and not deserving of objection. I think the sentiment should be phrased more fairly - but I'm not denying there are a lot of bitchy Irish women. Have to agree to disagree I guess.

Raekwon wrote: »

And you are accusing me of being on a wind-up

Yep. I do not see the contradiction or connection - I said what I thought was a fair way to phrase it, then I said a number of members post comments about Irish women that AREN'T phrased fairly. Two separate things.

I made a comment in one of those 'Irish women are blah' threads

Yep, one of those threads - those relentless hostile threads that render Irish women who get defensive on them to be "feminists"...

saying simply "In before Irish female posters get this locked".

I'm not justifying losing my temper - and I apologise (I got an infraction) - but that post was just a passive-aggressive wind-up. What else could it have been? And it wasn't just that, it was the fact that it was yet ANOTHER one of those threads, which you always post derogatory stuff in. It gets tiresome - and even though flying off the handle isn't reasonable, being defensive/objecting to the out-of-order posts totally is. If you can't see that, if you think that's just the stuff of nut-job feminists, it's totally bizarre... And a bit... dodgy - do you think a woman who's reasonable is only a woman who keeps her mouth shut and doesn't object to unnecessary putdowns of women in general?

OutlawPete · 18-06-2011 06:58PM

Points still being ignored I see. Sure lets just put it all down to disgruntled users who just want to bitch about men's rights in TLL. I'll grant you all this, you sure do have a knack for smoke screening genuine complaints and misrepresenting user's positions. I've gone from a guy who just wanted to put questions to the OP of a thread, got moderated while doing it, followed the moderation dispute process to it's [LOCKING] .. to a guy who is "obsessed" with the forum, gets hard-ons as he complains about it and who's goal is ultimately to "remake" the forum .

K-9 wrote: »

I don't see these female posters calling for changes to tGC though strangely enough, it seems to be a subset of posters with gripes against tLL as well doing that.

Women have complained about over zealous modding in TLL many times, quite recently in fact.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

It's male frustration from a handful of posters who barely post in the forum..

Let me ask you IM, does Wibbs qualify as one of those 'frustrated' males, as here is his views on being accused of derailing threads in TLL:

Wibbs wrote: »

I agree with all that IM. I've helped moderate it often enough. Even banned a few for not following it. But it would also be nice to be able to have a discussion without being accused of derailing the thread because that's the easy option, or the poster is male, or because it deflects from other points they want to avoid acknowledging in their argument. IMHO it's the same intent and effect as calling "troll" on someone and its common enough to see here.

Wibbs wrote: »

How trite and lazy to post that link. If you want to use that as a defence any time someone raises a point that doesn't square with your worldview on this, knock yourself out, but it hardly passes for debate.

Wibbs wrote: »

.. the line trotted out that this always a derailment is a tad paranoid (yea and I know that's one in the list too )."Ho ho aren't we clever, we spotted them" stuff. It may be an actual question you know? Plus my original point was that "men [may not] see it as they don't live it". If someone doesn't point it out to them(doesn't have to be a woman either), then what changes? Not unless they become psychic. TBH for me it's up there with the logic of "if you really cared you'd know what was wrong".

Wibbs wrote: »

Cool. I never said it should be in this forum(hence I said "in the real world"). I never said it should be the responsibility of any poster, but as I've been accused of derailment on this thread already (which I still call cobblers on), I'll leave ye to it.

Wibbs wrote: »

I dunno. I get the "forum's purpose" part and yes it is a specialty forum. That's grand, but whose specialty? It's been my take that too often the direction of this forum was as times about what we the mods wanted it to reflect, not what the users themselves may have wanted. And what was that? IMHO not just "a place for women to talk with women" but as much "a place for women to talk with women in a way we think worthy". There are more than a few who would look down on the "frivolous" threads in here over the years.

As to men derailing or debating to win? Yes I agree, that should be modded out, just like trolls are. We need to be even handed too though and the defence of "male opinion that disagrees with mine = derailler" should also be marked down. It's the same as calling troll around here and there are good reasons why we have a rule against that. Otherwise best of luck with the circle jerk and watch how small not bigger that circle gets.

Great points there Wibbs.

Funny how when you make them it's fine, but when other men do .. they are just the troublesome minority with axes to grind.

HellFireClub · 18-06-2011 07:05PM

Dudess wrote: »

Fine. You think "Irish women are bitches" is an ok way to post, and not deserving of objection. I think the sentiment should be phrased more fairly - but I'm not denying there are a lot of bitchy Irish women. Have to agree to disagree I guess.

I think it's representative of how I feel, having extended enough latitute to Irish women over the years to have been fairly proven otherwise. But I've to mention it again, the problem I run into isn't bitchy Irish women in themselves, it's Irish women who don't seem to be able to stand on their own two feet and make a decision about something and tell their mates what they want to do or who they want to entertain, instead telling their mates fill their heads about what they shouldn't do or to not give a guy a chance.

Maybe I'm being unfair on Irish women, maybe it's part of a deeper Irish degrudgery that we are well known for across both genders.

Latchy · 18-06-2011 07:07PM

Silverfish wrote: »

This one?

In response to some men who posted personal ads?

It's off-putting?

Thread is now ridiculous, tbh.

Actually No ,it's not that one ,think it was something along the lines of ' this forum is not for the benefit of guys looking to flirt or chat with women '' but I was meaning more as an put off for some men who might feel they have to walk on egg shells a bit before posting and not disputing the rights for some to post personell adds ,which of course is off side .

Stheno · 18-06-2011 07:19PM

Latchy wrote: »

Actually No ,it's not that one ,think it was something along the lines of ' this forum is not for the benafit of guys looking to flirt or chat with women '' but I was meaning more as an put off for some men who might feel they have to walk on egg shells a bit before posting and not disputing the rights for some to post personell adds ,which of course is off side .

What Silverfish quoted is what's there now in the charter.

Dudess · 18-06-2011 07:19PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

I think it's representative of how I feel, having extended enough latitute to Irish women over the years to have been fairly proven otherwise. But I've to mention it again, the problem I run into isn't bitchy Irish women in themselves, it's Irish women who don't seem to be able to stand on their own two feet and make a decision about something and tell their mates what they want to do or who they want to entertain, instead telling their mates fill their heads about what they shouldn't do or to not give a guy a chance.

Maybe I'm being unfair on Irish women

If that's what you've experienced (and yes, a lot of women are overly needy, and that's not attractive) it's not unfair to state it, but if you aren't going to be specific and just do the blanket "Irish women" thing, you're going to cause defensiveness. Not just from me, from lots of females (and some males - that's not "white-knighting" [ffs - anything by men condemning macho bravado is "white-knighting"]). It's become one of the things AH is known for - threads putting down Irish women.

K-9 · 18-06-2011 07:23PM

OutlawPete wrote: »

Women have complained about over zealous modding in TLL many times, quite recently in fact.

Depends what the reason was for I suppose, but a link or 2 would do no harm as there doesn't seem to be any women complaining here, just pm's to you that naturally you can't disclose.

HellFireClub · 18-06-2011 07:26PM

Dudess wrote: »

If that's what you've experienced (and yes, a lot of women are overly needy, and that's not attractive) it's not unfair to state it, but if you aren't going to be specific and just do the blanket "Irish women" thing, you're going to cause defensiveness. Not just from me, from lots of females (and some males - that's not "white-knighting" [ffs - anything by men condemning macho bravado is "white-knighting"]). It's become one of the things AH is known for - threads putting down Irish women.

No smoke without fire is the way I would see it. Irish women in my opinion have put themselves down. Irish men may also have done so, with a charge continually hanging over them that they are mammy's boys who can't wash their own clothes or cook for themselves. Why would I get upset about being thrown in with that group of men, when I know that can look after myself and couldn't be called a mammy's boy by any person know knew me??? And for those that don't know me and want to have a pop at me, why would I give a fúck what they think in all seriousness?!?

Dudess · 18-06-2011 07:45PM

I agree with you on that last point. But if you're reading and posting to a forum and there are insulting comments thrown at the group you're a member of, creating a nasty atmosphere, it is not unfair to question/object to this. It is not unfair to report such posts and/or to defend the group you're a member of. It's not right to lose your temper

but saying you should keep away from the forum isn't the answer either - nobody should be made to feel like they can't go into a forum which they'd like to read/post to. And this is a fact: a number of women who used to go into AH don't anymore because of what's said about women. I like AH - lots of interesting discussions from an informal angle, lots of hilarious stuff, lots of quirky stuff, and I'm not going to just stay away from there if some posters are going too far with the nasty comments about women, or whatever other group.

metrovelvet · 18-06-2011 07:46PM

There is a total contradiction, a hiporcracy in a forum which does not tolerate generalisations, but rules by a generalisation itself 'a woman's point of view.'

Sorry but make up your minds. It's even confusing for me, and that is from a woman's point of view, not the view of all women, but mine, and I happen to be a woman.

Just put a zero tolerance on pickering and verbal terrorism, for people not to have their personal experience negated, dont allow bullying or gaslighting, and it will work out.

Misogyny is more than tolerated on boards and I see it everywhere so there needs to be a place where there is less aggression taken out on women. ANd before you say it doesnt happen. Lol. How would you like it if someone kicked you in the balls and said it never happenned?

Latchy · 18-06-2011 07:50PM

Stheno wrote: »

What Silverfish quoted is what's there now in the charter.

That's fine .

Ickle Magoo · 18-06-2011 07:54PM

metrovelvet wrote: »

There is a total contradiction, a hiporcracy in a forum which does not tolerate generalisations, but rules by a generalisation itself 'a woman's point of view.'

A woman's point of view is a perspective, not a generalisation - there are no threads on tLL that I can recall where all posters agreed on anything, even when it was only one gender posting.

metrovelvet wrote: »

Sorry but make up your minds. It's even confusing for me, and that is from a woman's point of view, not the view of all women, but mine, and I happen to be a woman.

Which bit confuses you, Metro? Specifically?

metrovelvet wrote: »

Just put a zero tolerance on pickering and verbal terrorism, for people not to have their personal experience negated, dont allow bullying or gaslighting, and it will work out.

You suggested that earlier and I responded. I can guarantee that the minute the charter has "for people not to have their personal experience negated" in it - posters will use that as a shield to hide behind when trying to change the tact of discussion away from the women discussing that particular issue and towards themselves - and if "pickering and verbal terrorism" and "bullying or gaslighting" are added there will be another thread here asking for more specific wording and clearer definitions of what that entails while in tLL.

metrovelvet · 18-06-2011 08:07PM

It is still a generalisation, because it assumes behind it that there is a perspective particular to women.

Now I have no problems with generalisations, I always assume there are exceptions and some of the semantic games swarm around like annoying midges with the no generalisation rule. How else are we supposed to have a conversation?

But I feel if you are going to moderate by a generalisation then it really is only fair that you tolerate them from others too.

Ok, take the drkpower thread mentioned earlier. If I had said the same exact things he had said, could a moderator infract or warn me or whatever, on the grounds that it doesnt gel with a woman's point of view even though it would be a woman saying it?

TLL is like the religion forums, in that they lie somewhere between PI and Humanities, or that is how I see it, and some people have difficulty negotiating liminality.

And I also for the most part have no problem with sympathetic leanings towards women in TLL or towards men in TGC either. I cant see why there is a problem with that.

Stheno · 18-06-2011 08:11PM

metrovelvet wrote: »

It is still a generalisation, because it assumes behind it that there is a perspective particular to women.

Now I have no problems with generalisations, I always assume there are exceptions and some of the semantic games swarm around like annoying midges with the no generalisation rule. How else are we supposed to have a conversation?

But I feel if you are going to moderate by a generalisation then it really is only fair that you tolerate them from others too.

Ok, take the drkpower thread mentioned earlier. If I had said the same exact things he had said, could a moderator infract or warn me or whatever, on the grounds that it doesnt gel with a woman's point of view even though it would be a woman saying it?

TLL is like the religion forums, in that they lie somewhere between PI and Humanities, or that is how I see it, and some people have difficulty negotiating liminality.

drkpower mentioned two threads, which one are you referring to?

What is a female point of view/perspective?

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