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Proposed "Free" Water Allowances

  • 07-06-2011 12:48AM
    #1
    feicim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 289 ✭✭


    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0601/breaking3.html


    Minister for the Environment reckons a 60 litre water allowance per person per day is "generous".

    An electric shower uses roughly 8-10 litres per minute....

    5/6 minute shower = all your allowance used up :(

    If you have a modern toilet each flush is 6 litres a time...

    10 number 1's or 2's per day     = all your allowance used up frown.gif

    If you wash your hands after you go to the loo thats another 3-5 litres each time....

    brushing your teeth...
    dishwasher...
    washing your clothes...

    To be realistic an allowance of about 150-160 litre a day might be called generous.

    By mentioning the 60 litre allowance the government is putting misinformation out there, to cod people into thinking that they could get by comfortably on 60 litres a day.

    By the time people cop on that each household will be paying for at least 100 litres of water per person per day on top of the free allowance it will be too late, the 60 litre allowance will likely have come in under the radar, thanks to our unscrupulous or ignorant minister for the environment.

    This seems like the kind of stunt our last shower (no pun intended) of wasters would pull...



    If curious you can estimate your own water usage here....

    http://www.waterfootprint.org/?page=cal/WaterFootprintCalculator


«1345

Comments

  • #2
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Its funny, because you think people shower.


  • #3
    loldog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 634 ✭✭✭loldog


    People in developed societies use far too much water. It's not just the water either, it's the energy used to pump it, heat it, filter it, dispose of it. We're at peak oil, people are going to have to get used to the idea of finite resources.

    .


  • #4
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    Well, while I daresay the government is lining us up for a shafting here, from a purely conservationists point of view this will be a positive step: We will likely introduce more water friendly infrastructure.

    These days I can use a perfectly servicable waterless urinal in McDonalds, yet when I flush my jaxs at home I use as much water for one job as two.

    Of course, the biggest ecological saving might come from the government finally fixing the water pipes that lose 50% of treated water to begin with.


  • #5
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    feicim wrote: »
    If curious you can estimate your own water usage here....

    http://www.waterfootprint.org/?page=cal/WaterFootprintCalculator
    That's crap actually, first off because it has tonnes of countries, but not Ireland. But also because it adds a base figure. Select "United Kingdom" as the country and slot in zeroes all the way down and it tells you that you use more than 800,000 litres of water every year. So fine if you're trying to calculate your net effect on the world, but useless if you're trying to figure out how much water you use at home on a daily basis.

    This is better:
    http://www.taptips.ie/water-usage-calculator.htm

    100L per day would be generous. 60l per day is "about enough", but most people will go over that amount over the long-term

    In reality the aim should be to get people to reduce their water usage rather than maintain it, so aiming a little under what's necessary is probably the best tactic.


  • #6
    ednwireland
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,750 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    Of course, the biggest ecological saving might come from the government finally fixing the water pipes that lose 50% of treated water to begin with.

    not a hope once charges are in they will just put up the price

    My weather

    https://www.ecowitt.net/home/share?authorize=96CT1F



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  • #7
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    I don't, in principle, have a problem paying for water but we all know this will just be another tax. The government must be thanking all the Gods for the ECB/IMF for giving them the excuse to impose what would have been politically suicidal water and property taxes. It seems that every opportunity to impose unpopular decisions will be met with the same "the ECB/IMF forced us" refrain. Be warned Enda and Eamon, it won't wash. As a matter of fact, far from the financial crisis signalling the demise of FF, I can see it being the demise of FG/Labour.
    60 litres per person per day is borderline sufficient but that's not the point. The point is that you pay for what is over and above sufficient. You can turn the shower on and off while you are in rather than have it run all the time, you can use dual siphons in your toilet for ones and twos. My biggest problem is paying for the ****e that trickles out of my tap, purporting to be water.
    One thing, above all else we must avoid, is privatisation of the water supply.


  • #8
    cavedave
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,164 ✭✭✭cavedave


    Here are some figures i posted before. The references are in the original link.

    1. The generally agreed amount of free water per person per day is between 40 and 50 liters. "in Flanders everyone has the right to a minimal supply of 15 m³ (41 liter/capita/day) of free water per person per year."

    2. In England and Wales our drinking water costs around 2p for 10 litres.

    3. Irish houses have a lot of people in them. And there are about 1.3 million houses in Ireland.

    4. Irish people use 150 liters each "91% of Irish people have no idea how much water they use, despite using on average, over 150 litres a day".

    5. Metering drops usage about 20%.

    So one back of the envelope a persons chargableusage of 80 liters (150->120 when metered - 40 free as a right) should be about 16 pence a day (or 20 cent) or say 70 euro a year from each person. With 60 litres free at UK prices you would get less than 70 euros per person per year.


  • #9
    Avns1s
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭Avns1s


    Let me add another perspective.

    First of all, there is no such thing as free water. All water has a cost. The cost of putting plant and pipework in place, the cost of treatment, the cost of maintenance and repairs, upgrades and so on.

    Currently, the cost of this is met by the taxpayer, i.e. most of us here, so we are already paying for water.

    However, some of us live in rural areas and are already metered and paying an annual fee for water. So, in this scenario, those of us in that setting are paying for our own water supply AND paying something towards the supply of water to those that have "free water".

    Now, I don't think this is remotely fair, and put together with the fact that anything that's "free" is deemed to have no value and is ultimately wasted to some extent by a large proportion of the population, I for one am strongly in favour of water charges.


  • #10
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    feicim wrote: »
    If you wash your hands after you go to the loo thats another 3-5 litres each time....

    What? that's nonsense. Could easily wash your hands with 300-400ml of water.

    Think of a 2L bottle of milk. If that were water are you actually telling me you'd need 2-3 of those to wash your hands?


  • #11
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    If the governments down through the years were so concerned about the price of supplying water, they'd have been replacing water pipes on an ongoing basis instead of getting into a situation where about 50% of the capitals water mains are pre-1940's (according to Dublin City Council's own website.)

    This is a smash and grab operation, simple as.


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  • #12
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    And the years of underinvestment are the reason we needed water charges back then as well as now.

    We do not have a permanent government. Apart from some individuals, the politicians that failed to invest over decades and the politicians in power today are not the same people. The governments through the years weren't bothered because they knew that the long-term damage of underinvestment wouldn't crystallize under their watch. That's the joy of 5-year terms of office for national governments.

    We are one of the only countries in Europe that doesn't have water charges and this measure is well overdue.


  • #13
    Boulevardier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    It would be extremely unwise for people, whether they agree or not with water charges, to take any comfort from a "free allowance." This allowance can be reduced anytime the government wishes, and if water is privatised, you may count on such a reduction happening in order to suit the corporates.

    I suspect that any apparently generous free allowance at the outset will be used to lull and neutralise oposition. Nobody should fall for it.


  • #14
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Where is your evidence that the free allowance will be taken away, other than a personal hunch?


  • #15
    Boulevardier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    I didnt say it will be taken away, I said it will be reduced.

    Obviously I have no proof of this. If I had I would publicise it pretty fast. However, I personally beleive it will happen, and I also firmly believe it would be most unwise for anyone to assume it will not happen.


  • #16
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    feicim wrote: »

    10 number 1's or 2's per day    = all your allowance used up frown.gif
    How often are you thinking the average person goes to the toilet? I certainly don't need to go more than 3 times a day. Maybe if you are drinking like a fish.
    If you wash your hands after you go to the loo thats another 3-5 litres each time....
    Its funny Ireland is the first place I ever saw a sink with 2 different taps for Hot and Cold - because you're meant to fill the basin, not run it straight through. Saves loads of water.
    brushing your teeth...
    Or shaving. See my last.
    dishwasher...
    washing your clothes...
    Do you need to do this daily? For each member of the household? Even if a family of 5 needs to run the dishwasher constantly, that's still water use divided among the allowance of 5 people. And if you live alone and you need to run the dishwasher everyday, something is wrong. No one person needs to run a load of laundry for themselves each day of the week.


  • #17
    Boulevardier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    I have always had "waterworks" problems, and even with approprtate meds I need to "go" several times a day. However, I usually do not flush at night - I flush it all in the morning. I can do that because I live on my own, but I don't think a house-partner, especially a female one, would put up with it.


  • #18
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    And so you may incur a cost to all this flushing, similar in an abstract way to a medical expense for a medical condition.


  • #19
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Water saving efforts are so simple but the reality is hardly any households have them installed. Now would be a good time to invest in a company like this one:

    http://www.meconwml.com/

    Toilets should come with these things pre-installed.


  • #20
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    If thats the thing with the half-flush and full-flush buttons: yes, those are good investments.


  • #21
    Vizzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭Vizzy


    Macha wrote: »
    Water saving efforts are so simple but the reality is hardly any households have them installed. Now would be a good time to invest in a company like this one:

    http://www.meconwml.com/

    Toilets should come with these things pre-installed.

    There are 2 other options that are way cheaper.

    One is called "Hippo the water saver" (google it) they are about €10 for three

    Or still too expensive ?
    Put a small building block in the cistern !

    Both options simply cut down on the amount of water in the cistern and hence reduces the amount you can flush.


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  • #22
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    What? that's nonsense. Could easily wash your hands with 300-400ml of water.

    Think of a 2L bottle of milk. If that were water are you actually telling me you'd need 2-3 of those to wash your hands?

    I think that's the point, though - that if you wash your hands by running the tap or filling the sink you use a heck of a lot more water than you need to.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #23
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Vizzy wrote: »
    There are 2 other options that are way cheaper.

    One is called "Hippo the water saver" (google it) they are about €10 for three

    Or still too expensive ?
    Put a small building block in the cistern !

    Both options simply cut down on the amount of water in the cistern and hence reduces the amount you can flush.

    Well the benefit of the Mecon is that you can let a full flush go through when needed. And sometimes people are more willing to accept something if they know there is flexibility.

    Anyway, your suggestions are good and it's whatever works for people.


  • #24
    Boulevardier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    Overheal, why the hell should I pay more when I am already paying a substantial amount for my meds? There are thousands of people with similar problems to mine. For their sake, you will have to come up with a less complacent and more compassionate answer than the one you have given.


  • #25
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    For their sake, you will have to come up with a less complacent and more compassionate answer than the one you have given.
    Well not really. I'm not being dismissive of your issue, but to a certain extent one needs to be heartless and emotionless when considering countrywide policy. Otherwise tax hikes or 50c levies on medicines would be fraught with worries about hitting those with the least money or the biggest costs and so forth, and we'd never be able to apply them because everyone would have a legitimate excuse as to why they don't have to pay it.

    In the case of water metering, my suspicion is that it will be managed by the local authorities and people will be able to apply on an individual basis for an increase in their allowance where they have a genuine requirement for additional water - such as people with medical needs or disabled children.


  • #26
    user1842
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,125 ✭✭✭user1842


    Will there be water pipe rental as well as a water charge? Like eircom line rental.

    Will this really bring in investment in our water supply? I think not a chance.

    What do I pay my taxes for? I dont understand anymore.

    I would have thought the cost of a supply of clean water would come from my income tax.

    Water is one resource that is not in short supply in Ireland. Its just incompetence that we cannot pipe enough of it.

    There should be a massive free allowance. Metering in Ireland should only be used to detect and repair leaks.


  • #27
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    dmclean1842 wrote: »
    Will there be water pipe rental as well as a water charge? Like eircom line rental.
    Wouldn't work like that as a water source is an essential service to a home. A phone line is not. "Line rental" was historically to fund the cost of maintaining the phone line to your home, as it's not an essential service so such costs should not be funded by the exchquer. Since eircom was privatised it's been used as a cash cow.
    Will this really bring in investment in our water supply? I think not a chance.
    Depends on how it's managed tbh. If it's paid directly to the exchequer, then probably not. On the other hand, if it's collected by the local council, then it will at least go towards funding local services, including water supply.
    I would have thought the cost of a supply of clean water would come from my income tax.
    It would, if we paid enough income tax. We don't.


  • #28
    Boulevardier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    In other words Seamus, a choice between an unjust system and a bureaucratic nightmare.

    The whole thing is, of course, a con. Water costs should be included in council tax. There is no need whatever to bring in charges or metering for household water. Outdoor usage can be controlled by the regulation of sprinklers and hosepipes.


  • #29
    Avns1s
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭Avns1s


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    In other words Seamus, a choice between an unjust system and a bureaucratic nightmare.

    The whole thing is, of course, a con. Water costs should be included in council tax. There is no need whatever to bring in charges or metering for household water. Outdoor usage can be controlled by the regulation of sprinklers and hosepipes.

    And what council tax would that be exactly?

    I think you have an overly simplistic understanding of how humans behave, if you think telling people not to wash the car and water the garden will prevent water wastage.

    I want a system that rewards those who do not waste a valuable resource that costs money to have in place and conversely, penalises those do waste it. There is no other way other than water meters.

    If there was an alternative and we were all absolutely identical in our behaviours and doing what we are told to the letter of the law, then we should have no ESB meters, Gas meters, phone bills, etc. We should all be paying a flat charge ..... or nothing, as somepeople would prefer. (Presumably, those who do not pay tax.)


  • #30
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    Avns1s wrote: »
    And what council tax would that be exactly?

    I think you have an overly simplistic understanding of how humans behave, if you think telling people not to wash the car and water the garden will prevent water wastage.

    I want a system that rewards those who do not waste a valuable resource that costs money to have in place and conversely, penalises those do waste it. There is no other way other than water meters.

    If there was an alternative and we were all absolutely identical in our behaviours and doing what we are told to the letter of the law, then we should have no ESB meters, Gas meters, phone bills, etc. We should all be paying a flat charge ..... or nothing, as somepeople would prefer. (Presumably, those who do not pay tax.)
    A vital flaw, I believe, is that government has not led the way on good behaviour. I'd feel a lot better about conserving water if I didn't know that half of the stuff is lost in the ground before it gets through pipes to me.

    This whole affair is a smash and grab tax effort dressed up as an attempt to change water behaviour, because holding the green baby in your arms makes it more difficult to smack you.

    Well, if half Dublin's water infrastructure didn't date back to pre-1940's I'd believe government sincerity in this effort.


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  • #31
    user1842
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,125 ✭✭✭user1842


    Avns1s wrote: »
    I want a system that rewards those who do not waste a valuable resource that costs money to have in place and conversely, penalises those do waste it. There is no other way other than water meters.

    How is water a valuable resource in Ireland. It is through total incompetence that we dont have a 1000% redundant water supply.

    We should be exporting the stuff.

    4.6m people, massive average rainfall, large land area per population.

    Its not a valuable resource like gas/oil/coal.


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