Blood of the travellers

CDfm · 23-05-2011 12:36pm

dubhthach wrote: »

I myself tested positive for L21 but negative for all know subclades (M222, L226 etc.) it's been calculated that L21 first arose in a man in Western Europe about 3,700 years ago. The highest genetic variability for men carrying L21 is in France.

What does the DNA thing cost and what type of info does it throw up?

How do people go about it ?

dubhthach · 23-05-2011 12:49pm

I've tested with two companies. FamilyTreeDNA who are leaders when it comes specifically to Y Chromosome testing. This specifically looks at the male line lineage as the Y is passed from father to son.

You can get an initial test there for about $150 of course that will only help pinpoint your specific Y clade, after that ye can pay for upgrades etc

Other company I've tested with is 23andme. They test a million markers across your entire Genome (autosomal) as well as give you a idea of what Y-Chromosome and Mitrochondrial haplogroup you belong to. They also provide information regarding potential disease carrier status etc

The two compliment each other, as someone dipping their toes in I would recommend 23andme as starting point. Cost is $99 plus $9/month for 12months. Of course as it's american company you have to pay bit more for DHL delivery/pickup but it probably works out at about €150 give or take.

I'm currently awaiting some results from Familytreedna, i'm upgrading my Y result from 67 markers to 111, plus I've also order a number of new SNP's that are under L21

It can become an expensive hobby/addiction

fontanalis · 23-05-2011 1:39pm

dubhthach wrote: »

DNA testing can tell you alot about human migration patterns. Each population tends to have some unique gentic features that are common to it's population as a result when you plot members they cluster together. Here's a map of Europe from genetic point of view using "Autosomal" typing:

Looks remarkably like a political map doesn't it?

Y-Chromosomal testing can be used for genealogical point of view. Ward is obviously M222+ if he possess the Northwest Irish signature (Uí Néill). This has been dated to having occurred in one man who lived about 1700-1800 years ago.

Niall was used by the geneticists to announce this (same thing happen with Genghis). However surnames connected to the Uí Fiachra (O'Dowd, Shaughnessy) and the Uí Briúin (O'Connor, O'Rourke, O'Reilly, McDermot etc.) have all shown to be M222+ as well.

Interesting enough the pseudo-histories claim that Niall had three half brothers, two of which were Fiachra and Brion. M222 as a result looks like it might be signature of ruling elite of "Connachta" population group in early Ireland.

Recently enough another SNP marker called L226 was found. This is a brother clade of M222 (both are subclades of L21) that appears to mark men who bear surnames connected to the Dál gCais (O'Brien, Kennedy, MacMahon etc.)

I myself tested positive for L21 but negative for all know subclades (M222, L226 etc.) it's been calculated that L21 first arose in a man in Western Europe about 3,700 years ago. The highest genetic variability for men carrying L21 is in France.

Isn't M222 found in low numbers on mainland Europe and in higher numbers in Scotland?

dubhthach · 23-05-2011 2:01pm

It is indeed found in lowland scotland and I've read of a couple of cases from the rhineland area. As I mentioned I don't believe it's all to do with Niall, he (if he did exist) was obviously a carrier. However his purported existence is dated to about 370-450AD. An age of 1700-1800 would put initial carrier in the 2nd century AD.

The important thing of course is variance regarding those who have tested. Those with the highest variation tend to show oldest population. If there is low variability then it shows more recent common ancestry.

nesbitt · 23-05-2011 3:03pm

paky wrote: »

Good progamme on sunday night at 9.30 investigating the origins of irish travellers. Through DNA testing, they're going to investigate whether travellers emerged during the cromwellian period or the famine. I always thought the cromwellian origin was more applicable. Looking forward to it.

I found the programme very interesting. I am recording the series for my eldest daughter, a good friend of hers is a traveller.

Recently when visiting relatives she became upset when her Aunt made some racist comments about travellers. You could here a pin drop when she said 'well my friend xxxxx is a traveller, so would you say that to her face? Que one very embarrassed Aunt who will no doubt edit her views in future.... I was really proud of my teenager for speaking her mind.

Anyway, personally I feel I will learn a lot about the treatment of travellers watching the series. I was shocked to learn that a Government report included the phrase 'final solution' and 'assimilation'. A shameful disgrace....

sensibleken · 23-05-2011 3:20pm

nesbitt wrote: »

I found the programme very interesting. I am recording the series for my eldest daughter, a good friend of hers is a traveller.

Recently when visiting relatives she became upset when her Aunt made some racist comments about travellers. You could here a pin drop when she said 'well my friend xxxxx is a traveller, so would you say that to her face? Que one very embarrassed Aunt who will no doubt edit her views in future.... I was really proud of my teenager for speaking her mind.

Anyway, personally I feel I will learn a lot about the treatment of travellers watching the series. I was shocked to learn that a Government report included the phrase 'final solution' and 'assimilation'. A shameful disgrace....

fair play to your daughter. you have to put up with that stuff on a daily basis

man1 · 23-05-2011 11:20pm

LaBaguette wrote: »

RTÉ 1, and same name as the thread

Is it on RTE player can't seem to find it?:(

paky · 25-05-2011 9:49pm

patsy pretty much covered everything i wanted to say.

Wolfe Tone · 25-05-2011 9:56pm

tbh wrote: »

That post and the previous one of yours was a new low - even for you. The man was murdered in the line of duty. Shame on you. Shame on you.

He wasn't murdered.

CDfm · 25-05-2011 10:03pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

He wasn't murdered.

His killers were convicted of manslaughter which is still unlawful killing and 40,000 people turned out in Limerick for his funeral.

Wolfe Tone · 25-05-2011 10:05pm

CDfm wrote: »

His killers were convicted of manslaughter which is still unlawful killing and 40,000 people turned out in Limerick for his funeral.

Yes, and there is a big difference between murder and manslaughter and seen as this is the history forum I thought it should be pointed out.

CDfm · 25-05-2011 10:16pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Yes, and there is a big difference between murder and manslaughter and seen as this is the history forum I thought it should be pointed out.

There was a lot of politics surrounding the case and witnesses had refused to cooperate with the prosecution and those convicted pleaded guilty to manslaughter.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/playing-politics-with-jerry-mccabes-killers-480202.html

Their early release was very controvercial and remains so and the IRA denied that it was an official operation.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/jerry-mccabe-killers-to-be-released-from-prison-today-1850983.html

Wolfe Tone · 25-05-2011 10:18pm

CDfm wrote: »

There was a lot of politics surrounding the case and witnesses had refused to cooperate with the prosecution and those convicted pleaded guilty to manslaughter.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/playing-politics-with-jerry-mccabes-killers-480202.html

Their early release was very controvercial and remains so and the IRA denied that it was an official operation.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/jerry-mccabe-killers-to-be-released-from-prison-today-1850983.html

I know that, and your point being?

CDfm · 25-05-2011 10:28pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I know that, and your point being?

Similar to yours, I wanted to point out that the state did not appear to have enough evidence to secure a murder conviction and the circumstances for that.

We are enough off topic.

Wolfe Tone · 25-05-2011 10:31pm

CDfm wrote: »

Similar to yours, I wanted to point out that the state did not appear to have enough evidence to secure a murder conviction and the circumstances for that.

We are enough off topic.

My point was that it was incorrect to say that he was murdered.

CDfm · 25-05-2011 10:47pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

My point was that it was incorrect to say that he was murdered.

Semantics, he was unlawfully & illegally killed doing his job and his killers were not convicted of murder because a case for murder was not pursued. The killers pleaded guilty to manslaughter and admitted their guilt in unlawfully killing Detective MCCabe.

So it is true to say that nobody was convicted of his murder, not, that he wasn't murdered.

We cannot say with certainty as a trial was not held.

paky · 30-05-2011 3:20pm

anyone see last nights episode? the guy concluded that the travellers diverged from the rest of the irish population between 1000-2000 years ago. so what ever the reason was, it appears that their culture would be distinct from the normans or celts?

CDfm · 30-05-2011 3:24pm

I didn't see it.

Tell me more !!!

sensibleken · 30-05-2011 3:25pm

paky wrote: »

anyone see last nights episode? the guy concluded that the travellers diverged from the rest of the irish population between 1000-2000 years ago. so what ever the reason was, it appears that they are pre-norman or perhaps pre-celtic?

way to give away the ending!!! nah only joking.

I have the two episodes to watch later. I wouldnt be suprised at that at all, the assertion that they were either refugees from the cromwellian conquest or the famine has always been disputed by travellers whose own folklore go back much further.

Ash.J.Williams · 30-05-2011 3:49pm

The happy head on francis at the end was unreal, it moved me bigtime, i have never seen anyone so happy in my life! Great show.

dubhthach · 30-05-2011 3:55pm

Well tbh it was all very vague, I would think 500-1,000 years is a better guestimate. The important things they mentioned was:

that there were "multiple founders"
that closest population to Travellers were "Settled Irish"
some of the travellers overlapped with "settled" community showing some more recent "admixture"

From a haplogroup point of view they all sound fairly standard Irish. For example the men were either L21 or M222 (a subset of L21). L21 is the most common Y-Chromosome haplogroup in Ireland. Likewise the female lineages were members of MtDNA haplogroup H, also extremely common in Ireland.

Given that Travellers have Irish surnames which originated in period 900-1300AD this should be taken into account as well. Of course Francie been a Barrett has a good "Cambro-Norman" surname!

As they are most closely related to "settled irish" community the implication is they branched off the settled community and started developing in isolation due to lack of gene-flow between the two populations (inter-community marriage). The term often used is "Endogamy" in otherwords they only marry within the community etc.

For example there could be lineages preserved among the travellers that are now extremely rare in the settled population due to absorption of later migrants (Normans, English etc etc.). There's also the point that due to not marrying wider community these "lineages" would only stay within the traveller community. If for example a specific marker occurred in their MtDNA/Y-DNA it wouldn't be able to spread into settled community due to societal barriers put against "intermarriage" (by both communities).

Just as a hypothical example. If you took 100 Irish people and marooned them and their descendants on a island for 500-1000 years you would then see that their descendants:

Cluster together
Are related to general Irish population cluster
However form a distinct cluster due to lack of gene inflow apart from founder population

CDfm · 30-05-2011 5:06pm

sensibleken wrote: »

I wouldnt be suprised at that at all, the assertion that they were either refugees from the cromwellian conquest or the famine has always been disputed by travellers whose own folklore go back much further.

Very interesting.

And what do they say about themselves ???

slowburner · 30-05-2011 9:07pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Well tbh it was all very vague, I would think 500-1,000 years is a better guestimate. The important things they mentioned was:
that there were "multiple founders"

that closest population to Travellers were "Settled Irish"

some of the travellers overlapped with "settled" community showing some more recent "admixture"

From a haplogroup point of view they all sound fairly standard Irish. For example the men were either L21 or M222 (a subset of L21). L21 is the most common Y-Chromosome haplogroup in Ireland. Likewise the female lineages were members of MtDNA haplogroup H, also extremely common in Ireland.

Given that Travellers have Irish surnames which originated in period 900-1300AD this should be taken into account as well. Of course Francie been a Barrett has a good "Cambro-Norman" surname!

As they are most closely related to "settled irish" community the implication is they branched off the settled community and started developing in isolation due to lack of gene-flow between the two populations (inter-community marriage). The term often used is "Endogamy" in otherwords they only marry within the community etc.

For example there could be lineages preserved among the travellers that are now extremely rare in the settled population due to absorption of later migrants (Normans, English etc etc.). There's also the point that due to not marrying wider community these "lineages" would only stay within the traveller community. If for example a specific marker occurred in their MtDNA/Y-DNA it wouldn't be able to spread into settled community due to societal barriers put against "intermarriage" (by both communities).

Just as a hypothical example. If you took 100 Irish people and marooned them and their descendants on a island for 500-1000 years you would then see that their descendants:
Cluster together

Are related to general Irish population cluster

However form a distinct cluster due to lack of gene inflow apart from founder population

This is clearer to me than the program was.

The issues and illnesses associated with endogamy were something of an elephant in the room.

slowburner · 30-05-2011 9:11pm

CDfm wrote: »

Very interesting.

And what do they say about themselves ???

They didn't offer a theory as to their own origins, to the best of my recollection, but were certain that they pre-dated the famine.

CDfm · 31-05-2011 5:10am

slowburner wrote: »

They didn't offer a theory as to their own origins, to the best of my recollection, but were certain that they pre-dated the famine.

thats worth looking deeper at and the idea that there is a "tribe" that has been lurking around for a 1000 years is fairly massive

sensibleken · 31-05-2011 9:44am

CDfm wrote: »

thats worth looking deeper at and the idea that there is a "tribe" that has been lurking around for a 1000 years is fairly massive

more 'families', you can get certain families or lines of a family going back that far (as we all have), travellers can give family histories back to a varying degree but wouldnt have an 'origins story' per se.

nesbitt · 31-05-2011 10:30am

I watched the concluding episode.

I am intrigued to know more about the early history of the travellers. Francis spoke to a historian who stated that men, women & children were slaughtered in great number in Cork for living a nomadic life. This was done to put terror into the people and thus force them to settle in one area. The British I presume feared the nomadic lifestyle as it would be difficult to divide and conquer etc. The programme only touched on the subject for a few seconds.

I found the story of the 21 year old man in the 1930's?, who (it was alleged) was beaten to death in Garda custody moving and indeed thought provoking. The death was not recorded and therefore was never investigated. I have relatives in the Garda now and would also have had ancestors in the Garda during that era, left me feeling very uneasy. I hate injustice.

The documentary has posed for me ,a lot of questions about the history of the travellers. I would watch with interest a series on 'the history of Irish Travellers'.

slowburner · 31-05-2011 10:51am

nesbitt wrote: »

I watched the concluding episode.

I am intrigued to know more about the early history of the travellers. Francis spoke to a historian who stated that men, women & children were slaughtered in great number in Cork for living a nomadic life. This was done to put terror into the people and thus force them to settle in one area. The British I presume feared the nomadic lifestyle as it would be difficult to divide and conquer etc. The programme only touched on the subject for a few seconds.

I found the story of the 21 year old man in the 1930's?, who (it was alleged) was beaten to death in Garda custody moving and indeed thought provoking. The death was not recorded and therefore was never investigated. I have relatives in the Garda now and would also have had ancestors in the Garda during that era, left me feeling very uneasy. I hate injustice.

The documentary has posed for me ,a lot of questions about the history of the travellers. I would watch with interest a series on 'the history of Irish Travellers'.

Agreed. The programme raised many more questions than it answered.

slowburner · 31-05-2011 11:03am

nesbitt wrote: »

I found the story of the 21 year old man in the 1930's?, who (it was alleged) was beaten to death in Garda custody moving and indeed thought provoking. The death was not recorded and therefore was never investigated. I have relatives in the Garda now and would also have had ancestors in the Garda during that era, left me feeling very uneasy. I hate injustice.

I suppose that some of the Gardai back then had been actively involved in the civil war some ten years previously, and would still have held a 'them and us' attitude to law enforcement and violence. Undoubtedly, the cover up must have had approval from high authority.

paky · 31-05-2011 11:12am

slowburner wrote: »

They didn't offer a theory as to their own origins, to the best of my recollection, but were certain that they pre-dated the famine.

one traveller family called the o'donnells said that according to their family history they began travelling after the ulster plantations.

it seems that the travellers are irish people who hold onto an acient nomadic lifestyle and different episodes in irish history have led to intermarrying among them and the settled irish. the dna suggests that there are multiple founders of the community so no one period in irish history can be attributed to their development.

Blood of the travellers

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