Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
If we do not hit our goal we will be forced to close the site.

Current status: https://keepboardsalive.com/

Annual subs are best for most impact. If you are still undecided on going Ad Free - you can also donate using the Paypal Donate option. All contribution helps. Thank you.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.

Is cavity wall construction obsolete, and if so what's the alternative?

  • 29-05-2011 11:12PM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭


    AFAIK cavity wall construction is 19th century British technology.

    I seem to recall hearing somewhere that they stopped using this construction method in Germany as long ago as the 1970s.

    Here's a comment on one website <SNIP>

    Partial fill cavity walling has been scrapped as a failed technology in every country in Europe except here and England due to "Thermal Looping" and "Cold Bridging". The Polish and Baltic builders working here think it's hilarious that we are still using this archaic building system in modern Ireland that was scrapped there 50 yrs ago because it doesn't work.


    Alternatives like Poroton don't seem to be popular in Ireland though, if Boards threads are anything to go by.

    Why is cavity wall construction still so common in Ireland? Is it being superseded? What are the newer technologies, if any?

    I'm not referring to timber frame construction here, just block/brick.




    Mod edit: No need to link to a business. Read the forum charter please.




    .


«13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,389 ✭✭✭Carlow52


    In the quote u include, what in your opinion are the 2 key words that are central to any useful discussion on this issue?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,547 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Why is cavity wall construction still so common in Ireland?
    Because it is still the most economical form of construction.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Is it being superseded?
    Yes, products are being developed every single day which advance all building technology.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    What are the newer technologies, if any?
    Technology or forms of building?
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    I'm not referring to timber frame construction here, just block/brick.
    Are you referring to block/brick as an overall structural element or just an infill cladding material?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Carlow52 wrote: »
    In the quote u include, what in your opinion are the 2 key words that are central to any useful discussion on this issue?


    Two key words? I have no idea.



    Re "no need to link to a business": that was not my intention. I posted a link to a website that happened to include a rather scathing comment on cavity wall construction (CWC) while I was searching for info on the topic.

    Clearly there is a view out there that CWC is outmoded technology. If it is true that Ireland and the UK are alone in Europe in continuing to use CWC then I am curious to know why that might be the case.*

    Also I would like to know whether there are any viable (and approved) alternatives, other than timber frame.








    *That may also be true of our bog-standard plumbing, which I suspect is also of 19th century British origin.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Because it is still the most economical form of construction.

    Yes, products are being developed every single day which advance all building technology.


    Technology or forms of building?


    Are you referring to block/brick as an overall structural element or just an infill cladding material?


    I would imagine that house construction methods are not uneconomical in Germany, for example. So is CWC the most economical in Ireland primarily because it is the most common method? In which case why is it still the most common, given that it is long obsolete elsewhere? I am more concerned about issues such as energy efficiency, for example, rather than economies of scale (ie widespread use).

    New products may be developed every single day, but it is still the case that CWC using standard concrete blocks is the norm in Ireland. It appears that this is not the case elsewhere in the EU (except perhaps the UK, with whom we tend to be joined at the hip). Most houses in Ireland, other than timber frame, are built using CWC. Most houses in Germany, I believe, are built using other materials and methods. I am just wondering what the other widely used alternatives are, and whether there is any sign of them being used in Ireland on any significant scale.

    I am referring to both technology and methods of construction (not including timber frame in this case).

    I am also referring to block/brick or whatever as the main structural element, to replace concrete blocks erected in the cavity wall format.


  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,766 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Building methods cannot be considered homogeneous.

    Inuits live in igloos, mongolians in yurts etc etc. Irish vernacular construction consisted of thick single leaf structures of stone, mud, rubble, horse hair, straw, seaside aggregate etc or anything that was available, handy and cheap. This method isno longer acceptable giving our energy crisis and general health and quality of life understanding.
    With the industrial revolution it became possible to build economically with materials such as bricks and blocks. This allowed irish vernacular construction deal with ongoing issues such as rising damp and weather damage by creating a protective second leaf.

    However with the looming peak oil crisis and constant rising energy costs, insulation and energy conservation is now the main driver of building methods. As a result, traditional cavity wall construction (4" 4" 4") has been shown to be limited as a solution to the problem.

    As a build method it is the most utilised in ireland, apart from maybe cavity block which is still used widly around dublin. This means its is the method that most trades are trained in when serving their time. Its the method most used by established domestic contractors. Also, as a result of more stringent regulations, the concrete industry, the main driver of cavity wall construction, has attempted to react to these regulations in various manners. Cavity wall still has the main advantage of being a very resilient protection against weather.

    In my opinion a lot of these augmentations to cavity wall construction are suitable for used as a baseline type of construction for those most financially stretched wanting to provide a dwelling for themselves. Th euse of wider cavities with pumped insulation, or AAC internal block leaf, or even just AAC at dpc level to reduce the thermal bridging. There is now newer type materials which can be used in cavity wall construction to reduce these thermal bridges such as foamglass and rubber.

    for those wishing to build above minimum standards i feel cavity wall construction may not meet their brief. How many passive houses are cavity wall?? That being said, newer methods are not the holy grail either. A cavity wall house properly built, with tremenduous attention to detail, will out perform a EWI or Poroton house which isnt built with detail and workmanship in mind. Theres enough threads here and elsewhere debating the pros and cons of all the methods available... .and all the newer technologies as well. At the end of the day there is no substitute to skill, workmanship and buildability.... whether here, Germany or elsewhere. I would purport that one reason german building is looked to as high quality is because, in order to trade as a building contractor, you need to pass a full time college course. Over here all you need to a 4 X 4 and a mobile phone ;).


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    How many passive houses are cavity wall?? .

    Not many - but this is the first certified .

    Otherwise agree Syd :)

    Is the cavity wall obsolete ? No.

    .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    I would purport that one reason german building is looked to as high quality is because, in order to trade as a building contractor, you need to pass a full time college course. Over here all you need to a 4 X 4 and a mobile phone ;).

    And because the Irish punter demands no more.

    And by "demand" I mean "is prepared to value enough to pay for"


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,147 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    (and approved) alternatives, other than timber frame.

    Define 'approved'

    building regs can bend to a reasonable alternative with some argument and calculation by a well insured engineer/confident arch
    hemplime is an alternative, as is strawbale. do you mean approved by regulations or Public opinion? the latter is stronger in Ireland, we dont like change and everyones an expert:rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,389 ✭✭✭Carlow52


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Two key words? I have no idea.



    Re "no need to link to a business": that was not my intention. I posted a link to a website that happened to include a rather scathing comment on cavity wall construction (CWC) while I was searching for info on the topic.

    Clearly there is a view out there that CWC is outmoded technology. If it is true that Ireland and the UK are alone in Europe in continuing to use CWC then I am curious to know why that might be the case.*

    Also I would like to know whether there are any viable (and approved) alternatives, other than timber frame.

    *That may also be true of our bog-standard plumbing, which I suspect is also of 19th century British origin.

    The 2 words in my view are partial fill and are very important in the attempt in the snipped link to promote a full fill solution.

    Partial fill CWC is very difficult to get right


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Partial fill does seem to be the problem alright, especially when workmanship is poor and supervision inadequate.

    Cavity walls have been around a very long time, but I think this construction method has run its course and it's now time to consign it to the dustbin of history.

    Cavity walls are not new, they have been observed in ancient Greek and Roman structures. At the Greco Roman town of Pergamum, on the hills overlooking the Turkish town of Bergama, a stone wall of cavity type construction still exists. Sometime in the early part of the 19th century, the cavity wall was probably reinvented by the British. Plans dating as early as 1805 suggest a type of construction, featuring two leaves of brickwork, bonded by headers spanning across a 6-inch cavity. An early British publication (dated 1821) suggests the use of cavity walls as a means of protection against moisture penetration. The use of metal ties was introduced in Southern England sometime after 1850. These original ties were made of wrought iron.


    It does seem to be the case that government policy, industry lobbying and general complacency have led to the continued use of partial fill cavity wall construction long after it should have been superseded.

    A core problem with PFCW is that the method has been repeatedly sanctioned by government regulations, with specified standards improving over time, yet there is a significant gap between Technical Design Guide calculations and actual performance in situ.

    Here's a quote from an excellent paper on the topic (Partial Fill Cavity Walls: have we reached the limits of the technology?) an abridged version of which appeared in the Spring 2005 issue of Construct Ireland magazine. The author has published several documents of a similar nature on his website but I am not going to post the URL here as I reckon it would probably just be taken as another "business" link and snipped.

    XXXXX is firmly of the opinion that the Government was extensively lobbied by the concrete industry. To prove this he gained access to ministerial documents through the Freedom of Information Act. One confidential Department of the Environment note from 1998 acknowledged that the Building Regulations would have to be revised much sooner than 2002/2003 because of the Kyoto Protocol, but continues: "However we don't want to signal this to the outside world just yet because the next -leap in building standard insulation will probably make it difficult for 'hollow block' construction, used widely in Dublin, to survive".

    In the end the Department did delay the new Technical Design Guide L till 2002. Even then they relaxed the implementation date till the end of the year. This resulted in developers 'stock-piling' Planning Permissions for housing of the more lenient standard to construct later in 2003, even 2004. One result of this is that two houses built in the same year could legitimately meet energy standards that differ by 30%. Sadly I believe that XXXXX is justified in saying that the Government protected "the concrete industry and vested interests in the building sector at the expense of the consumer" and I can add, the Environment. The other result is that since 1998, when the government privately recognised the need for higher thermal standards, 250,000 new homes have been built of the older less efficient standard having a direct negative impact on CO2 emissions.


    I remember that delay and postponed implementation well, since it directly impacted on my own house purchase. I was thoroughly p:ssed off because I could not afford to wait or house prices would have soared beyond my reach, yet at the same time I was forced to accept outdated Part L regs because the political party then in power was letting its big builder friends make money hand over fist by constructing large numbers of new houses using the old regs, long after the new regs should have come into force.

    These are the various construction alternatives, I believe, including PFCW (taken from a 2007 discussion on this very topic on another website).

    Cavity Block + drylining
    Cavity Wall
    Precast Concrete Walls Systems
    Conventional Timber Frame
    Structural Insulated Panel System (SIPs)
    Light Gauge Steel Frame
    Insulated Concrete Formwork
    Aerated Fire Clay single leaf (Poroton)
    Autoclaved aerated blocks (AAC, Ytong)
    Vaccuum Sealed Insulated Panel Systems (VIPs)


  • Advertisement
  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,766 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    ....... but I am not going to post the URL here as I reckon it would probably just be taken as another "business" link and snipped.

    yes it would have been !

    What point exactly are you trying to make here?

    So far i am seeing nothing that hasnt been trashed out many times over here already. If you did a search youd see that that article in CI has been referred to previously.

    Alternatives to CW construction have been discussed many times... is this just another rant thread?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    The thread title is self-explanatory, I would have thought.

    Before posting I searched the forum for previous threads on the topic (using the Boards search function and Google) and I didn't find anything that answered my queries.

    It was Carlow52 that supplied the key term that I was missing: "partial fill". Cheers!

    The paper I found subsequently, and which I referred to above (Partial Fill Cavity Walls: have we reached the limits of the technology?), answers the questions I originally posed.

    The related webpage I mentioned, and which I clearly can't link to here (for "business" reasons) has a list of similar documents that address the issues raised. I'm sure other posters can find the info for themselves, but in the unlikely event that they can't, I invite them to PM me.

    Interestingly, despite the fact that the above paper was written in 2005 and raises very important issues about Irish building standards and practices, neither its author nor its content seems to get much mention on relevant Boards forums, although there are a few references to "Breaking the Mould".

    BTW, is it permitted to link to webpages on constructireland.ie, or is that also verboten "business" territory?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    The author you refer to is in private practice and as such can not be allowed free exposure here.

    With respect you have come fresh to this and have reached a conclusion with some zeal but without much understanding.

    The cavity wall has been around a long time for good reasons as discussed and will continue long into the future , albeit modified. ( Wider cavities , full filled )

    Cost and availability of materials and skills are paramount when considering any building procurement. That puts the cavity wall top of any list quickly followed by solid block with EWI and then (advanced*) timber frame. All tried and tested .

    Others ?

    SIPS , ICF , AAC blocks , and Poroton type block do not have a long track record in Ireland and often (not always) rely on imported materials.
    which can add to the individuals build cost and is not good for Ireland inc.

    * closed panel , deep fill insulation , insulated services cavity + AT layer included - in the factory


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    BTW, is it permitted to link to webpages on constructireland.ie, or is that also verboten "business" territory?

    I will confer with my other mods in this one.


  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,766 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    The thread title is self-explanatory, I would have thought.

    well, taking that as your main issue then:

    1. No, cavity wall construction is not obsolete. See building regulations, accrediated details, Homebond, etc etc

    2. The alternatives have been debated many times before and are mentioned in many areas already here.


    Maybe your question should be "is cavity wall construction a lesser performing building method than its alternatives?"... now thats a question worthy of debate and one which a lot of the regular contributors here would agree with.

    Interestingly, the article you are referring to never claims that cavity wall is obsolete, just that it shouldnt be afforded the "best practise" status it currently has.....
    which, ironically, it is fast loosing, by educated professionals, since that article was first published.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,227 ✭✭✭Solair


    Cavity wall construction seems to work quite well and it can be supplemented with extra insulation layers very easily.

    It seems to work quite well in Irish conditions, which are remarkably damp.

    What would concern me a little is where dry-climate techniques have been used here without any adaptation. For example, using flat-roof construction which invariably causes leaking problems. This was a fad in the 60s and 70s and then in more recent years using timber externally on buildings. Again, this works well in dry climates and even in other parts of Northern Europe, but I am already seeing Irish buildings with deformed, distorted, rotten, fungus-damaged, and lichen damaged wood exteriors.

    It also makes me a little nervous of over-reliance on timber-frame construction. Dampness is a huge issue and those chemical protecting/preserving treatments can only last so long.

    I would tend to prefer to use concrete and steel structures if I were building anything myself.

    The main thing with any construction methodology here is that it has to be totally resistant to being rained on almost continuously and never drying out. It also needs to be able to withstand considerable wind-loads.

    After that, insulation and ventilation are the most important considerations.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47,152 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Interestingly, despite the fact that the above paper was written in 2005 and raises very important issues about Irish building standards and practices, neither its author nor its content seems to get much mention on relevant Boards forums, although there are a few references to "Breaking the Mould".
    Just to pick up on this point. Can you clarify if the author you refer to has any vested interest in other building/construction methods and/or products?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,550 ✭✭✭Slig


    I dont think the cavity wall is going out of fashion any time soon, I couldnt believe that they are still using cavity blocks as an accepted form of building in Dublin. While I believe there are much better systems out there the lack of any real "experience" with them is what will keep many people from using them.

    Its hard to build a cavity wall wrong, its a belt and braces system that everyone can relate to. The technology is simple and its easy to upgrade as regs get stricter.

    That said, the system does requires alot of effort to provide even basic insulation properties and requires strict details to avoid cold bridging at almost every single junction which is often not done.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Slig wrote: »
    I dont think the cavity wall is going out of fashion any time soon, I couldnt believe that they are still using cavity blocks as an accepted form of building in Dublin. While I believe there are much better systems out there the lack of any real "experience" with them is what will keep many people from using them.

    Its hard to build a cavity wall wrong, its a belt and braces system that everyone can relate to. The technology is simple and its easy to upgrade as regs get stricter.

    That said, the system does requires alot of effort to provide even basic insulation properties and requires strict details to avoid cold bridging at almost every single junction which is often not done.



    Thanks. QED.


  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,766 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Thanks. QED.

    dont be silly, that statement youve bolded doesnt prove your point at all.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73 ✭✭Jonny Harris


    Hi
    I worked as a brick/blocklayer in the UK for quite a while and we ALWAYS built the inner leaf first with 5" aerated blocks and after it had set we would strap the insulation onto the wall and tape the joins. Then build the outer leaf keeping the cavity clean. At the reveals these were filled with strips of PU insulation thus avoiding cold bridging. Easy! I have never seen this method employed over here. You see isulation bats flapping around in cavitys on a lot of sites. I blame the drive by engineers myself!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,547 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    I blame the drive by engineers myself!
    You don't blame the blocklayers/brickies who actually do the shoddy work, you blame the engineers.....:p...that blinkered approach isn't dealing with the problem.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,550 ✭✭✭Slig


    Now I'm confused about which side I'm meant to be on.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,147 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Hi
    I worked as a brick/blocklayer in the UK for quite a while and we ALWAYS built the inner leaf first with 5" aerated blocks and after it had set we would strap the insulation onto the wall and tape the joins. Then build the outer leaf keeping the cavity clean. At the reveals these were filled with strips of PU insulation thus avoiding cold bridging. Easy! I have never seen this method employed over here. You see isulation bats flapping around in cavitys on a lot of sites. I blame the drive by engineers myself!

    Jonny, do you not think it might be the lack of building control..meaning other parties dont give a f...


  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,766 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Hi
    I worked as a brick/blocklayer in the UK for quite a while and we ALWAYS built the inner leaf first with 5" aerated blocks and after it had set we would strap the insulation onto the wall and tape the joins. Then build the outer leaf keeping the cavity clean. At the reveals these were filled with strips of PU insulation thus avoiding cold bridging. Easy! I have never seen this method employed over here. You see isulation bats flapping around in cavitys on a lot of sites. I blame the drive by engineers myself!

    i have seen examples of this, only in photos. Its an admirable solution to the problem.
    Easier just to omit partial fill IMHO


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73 ✭✭Jonny Harris


    Hi Lads
    In the UK if you are spotted doing something wrong by the building inspector he can make you take it down and do it again properly. After that you would have learnt your lesson and next time you would do it well. As there is no proper government body ie planning/building control there is no threat of being pulled up on things and there is always going to be huge scope for abuse by cowboys to get away with shoddy work. The bats flapping around inthe cavity was very common here. It is very hard if not impossible to do a good job when you are working from the inside.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭BarneyMc


    Hi
    I worked as a brick/blocklayer in the UK for quite a while and we ALWAYS built the inner leaf first with 5" aerated blocks and after it had set we would strap the insulation onto the wall and tape the joins. ...

    How did you "strap" the insulation to the inner leaf?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭fclauson


    Do you have any pictures of this approch which can be shared ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    Pic taken before the boards were taped up


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭fclauson


    Hi
    I worked as a brick/blocklayer in the UK ........At the reveals these were filled with strips of PU insulation thus avoiding cold bridging. Easy! ........

    John

    could you do a thumb nail sketch and post it here so we can see how this worked


Advertisement