Thunderbolt but no USB3. iMac.

psycjay · 24-05-2011 10:40PM

Johnmb wrote: »

I have a very strong basis for the statement, as I went through. Since I never claimed to be a prophet, it was obviously speculation, as all statements about future technology is.

You claimed it was a given. I know it was speculation. You may not have intended to do it but your choice of words expressed that.

LOL! This would seem to indicate a lack of understanding of the word "innovation". Also, see stimpson's post above.

See previous my post.

You said: "I just wonder if intel had joined with another brand would you be so convinced that is it going to triumph." Work it out.

Ahh, now it makes sense.

One part was speculation, based on a number of facts which were also given. You attempted to deceive by claiming the whole thing was "pure speculation".

I was referring to what you were saying in your paragraph. The central point of it. The conclusion. I was not trying to deceive.

stimpson · 24-05-2011 10:51PM

psycjay wrote: »

That is a list of innovations from the 70's 80's and 90's. I think that actually supports my argument. We are in 2011. Seems like apple has been "following" for the past 12 years.

:rolleyes:

MS's Vista demo, except demonstrated on OSX 10.5

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2674791799339834706#

Johnmb · 24-05-2011 11:02PM

psycjay wrote: »

That is a list of innovations from the 70's 80's and 90's. I think that actually supports my argument. We are in 2011. Seems like apple has been "following" for the past 12 years.

LOL. iPod, iPhone, iPad. Unibody construction. ARM chips that outperform all others. Battery performance that can't be matched. iTunes. App Store. Mac App Store. Web Kit. Mac OSX. iChat. Facetime. Time Machine. iLife. etc.

Kinky Slinky · 24-05-2011 11:04PM

Johnmb wrote: »

LOL. iPod, iPhone, iPad. Unibody construction. ARM chips that outperform all others. Battery performance that can't be matched. iTunes. App Store. Mac App Store. Web Kit. Mac OSX. iChat. Facetime. Time Machine. iLife. etc.

FYP

psycjay · 24-05-2011 11:06PM

Thanks for that, at least vista is getting a little more up present time

But as I recall this discussion was originally about hardware. At least that's what I was referring to.

Of course OS developers will continue to copy each other on different features, but that does not make one the "leader".

@Johnmb

I did say "in the computer world" because I knew I would get an Iphone thrown in my face

Johnmb · 24-05-2011 11:17PM

Kinky Slinky wrote: »

FYP

Are you saying iTunes wasn't an innovation? It was, and one that competitors are still trying to imitate and catch up to

psycjay wrote: »

But as I recall this discussion was originally about hardware. At least that's what I was referring to.

Then that still leaves: iPod, iPhone, iPad. Unibody construction. ARM chips that outperform all others. Battery performance that can't be matched. That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are others. The different iPod models probably should be listed separately rather than lumped in together.

Of course OS developers will continue to copy each other on different features, but that does not make one the "leader".

The one that the others tend to copy would have good claim to being the "leader".

@Kinky Slinky

I did say "in the computer world" because I knew I would get an Iphone thrown in my face

The iPhone is a portable computer. It's a lot more powerful than my first computer. It, along with the iPods and iPad, is basically a peripheral, and one that will most likely end up using a TB connection in the future.

psycjay · 24-05-2011 11:19PM

The Irony is that the latest upgrade to one of the key innovations in the world of computers is not currently on apples line of products

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/the_100_greatest_tech_innovations_of_all_time?page=0,9

@John

We were clearly talking about Personal Computers, be it macs or whatever. To define. A desktop or a laptop computer. Not smartphones, software, operating systems etc.

stimpson · 24-05-2011 11:26PM

psycjay wrote: »

Of course OS developers will continue to copy each other on different features, but that does not make one the "leader".

If one company is constantly copied by another then they are the leader. That's what the word means.

Perhaps you could give some examples of tech that Apple has copied from another PC manufacturer or OS developer.

melekalikimaka · 24-05-2011 11:35PM

i think pyscjay is peed off cos he got a dell instead of mbp off santa

psycjay · 24-05-2011 11:43PM

stimpson wrote: »

If one company is constantly copied by another then they are the leader. That's what the word means.

Perhaps you could give some examples of tech that Apple has copied from another PC manufacturer or OS developer.

No because that would be a pointless cat and mouse game and it is not required. I am not trying to start yet another mac vs PC debate, that has been done to death, and trying to establish who is the leader is pointless. They are both useful, both have good things and bad things, although fan boys on both sides often deny any aspect of weakness.

The innovation argument started in reference to the hardware used in macs. My point was that apple usually (and have done in recent years) are not early adopters of brand new hardware, I also pointed out the benefit of this in terms of stability (less issues with drivers etc) which is one of the reasons why they are so popular in multimedia industry.

psycjay · 24-05-2011 11:44PM

melekalikimaka wrote: »

i think pyscjay is peed off cos he got a dell instead of mbp off santa

Guess again mate

Kinky Slinky · 24-05-2011 11:48PM

Are you saying iTunes wasn't an innovation? It was, and one that competitors are still trying to imitate and catch up to

It was innovative ten years ago but iTunes is one of the laggyest pieces of software I know of now.I absolutely hate using it, Why do I have to download 100mb everytime for an update ? It's the biggest piece of bloatware I know of and it's always trying to get you to install more crapware at every update

What was apples latest innovation in regards to iTunes ... ping that social network that no one ever talks about or uses

iTunes 1

Hardly innovative to be honest, hasn't really changed that much in appearance and only adds new features(non-essential) now and again.Honestly the amount of features on iTunes that a typical user will never use is ridiculous. The only reason that iTunes is so popular is because of the hardware associated with it.Zune software now that's innovation.Brilliant interface , very easy to use but as per usual micro$hit mange to ruin a perfectly brilliant product by not supporting/Marketing it enough

stimpson · 25-05-2011 12:05AM

psycjay wrote: »

No because that would be a pointless cat and mouse game and it is not required. I am not trying to start yet another mac vs PC debate, that has been done to death, and trying to establish who is the leader is pointless. They are both useful, both have good things and bad things, although fan boys on both sides often deny any aspect of weakness.

The innovation argument started in reference to the hardware used in macs. My point was that apple usually (and have done in recent years) are not early adopters of brand new hardware, I also pointed out the benefit of this in terms of stability (less issues with drivers etc) which is one of the reasons why they are so popular in multimedia industry.

Even if you restrict it to Mac hardware its not true as johnmb has shown. Apple were the first company to ship an exclusively USB computer. I remember people saying it would fail at the time due to lack of 3rd party support. Either you don't know your stuff or you're trying to dig yourself out of a hole.

psycjay · 25-05-2011 12:11AM

stimpson wrote: »

Even if you restrict it to Mac hardware its not true as johnmb has shown. Apple were the first company to ship an exclusively USB computer. I remember people saying it would fail at the time due to lack of 3rd party support. Either you don't know your stuff or you're trying to dig yourself out of a hole.

What is not true? Again I'm talking about modern macs

condra · 25-05-2011 12:13AM

melekalikimaka wrote: »

leaving out the key advantage.
daisychaining

think tb is gonna finally put usb to rest.

Firewire has had daisy-chaining for years and made up probably less than 1% of peripherals.

condra · 25-05-2011 12:17AM

Talisman wrote: »

The Intel chipset won't provide USB 3.0 support until 2012, hence Apple won't have it until then either.

Interesting. I'll cut Apple some slack then..... though I won't be buying an iMac until USB3 is support, hopefully in early 2012.

OctavarIan · 25-05-2011 12:55PM

Kinky Slinky wrote: »

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/02/24/intel_details_thunderbolt_as_exclusive_to_apple_until_2012.html

Nice try, but point me to the section of that article that states Apple have an exclusive on Thunderbolt until 2012.

Apple don't have an exclusive, Intel just don't expect any other manufacturer to include Thunderbolt until next year. Sony reportedly are including it in a new laptop that should be out soon, although they're using a USB3 connector instead of a mini displayport.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/24/intel-refutes-apple-exclusivity-for-thunderbolt-i-o-lacie-and-p/

Johnmb · 25-05-2011 01:24PM

Kinky Slinky wrote: »

It was innovative ten years ago ....

And since the request was for Apple innovations from the last 12 years, it was correct to include it, even from your own description.

psycjay wrote: »

@John

We were clearly talking about Personal Computers, be it macs or whatever. To define. A desktop or a laptop computer. Not smartphones, software, operating systems etc.

Actually, I would have thought we were clearly talking about peripherals, as they are what TB will be used to connect to, and how many peripherals (and their quality) come on line will determine the success, or otherwise, of TB. But, again, even if you want to narrow down more and more to ignore all the innovations of Apple, you still have from my post:
Unibody construction. ARM chips (I'm counting iPad as a portable computer, as that is what it is) that outperform all others. Battery performance that can't be matched.
And as I said, they are off the top of my head, I'm sure I'd find many others if I put a bit of effort in. Removing Floppy disk drives was also quite innovative in its time, just can't remember how long ago they did that.

psycjay · 25-05-2011 01:52PM

Johnmb wrote: »

And since the request was for Apple innovations from the last 12 years, it was correct to include it, even from your own description.

Actually, I would have thought we were clearly talking about peripherals, as they are what TB will be used to connect to, and how many peripherals (and their quality) come on line will determine the success, or otherwise, of TB. But, again, even if you want to narrow down more and more to ignore all the innovations of Apple, you still have from my post:
Unibody construction. ARM chips (I'm counting iPad as a portable computer, as that is what it is) that outperform all others. Battery performance that can't be matched.
And as I said, they are off the top of my head, I'm sure I'd find many others if I put a bit of effort in. Removing Floppy disk drives was also quite innovative in its time, just can't remember how long ago they did that.

Your argument was that macs lead and others follow. Now if you look at macs current line, the only thing that they have that other machines don't is TB. On the other hand, there are many competitive models out there which also have features such as 3D, blu-ray, HDMI. So in terms of their laptops and desktops they are not leading anything.

Giving examples of past innovations is fine but that does not mean that they are currently leading in relation to technology. If I wanted to see the latest tech in a laptop or desktop, I would not look at apple, in fact I would have to look across many different manufacturers.

Apple did lead the smartphone revolution, they brought the portable music player to the masses, had many key innovation in regards to their OS and software, I'm not denying that, I'll take my hat off, and perhaps they used to be more on top of the game in terms of tech in their computers but I feel they have lagged behind these last few years. One of the reason's why is because they are very stubborn in putting standard peripheral connections on their products.

Johnmb · 25-05-2011 03:46PM

psycjay wrote: »

Your argument was that macs lead and others follow.

Actually, I said Apple lead, others follow. It may sound pedantic, but I wasn't limiting myself to just computers using the Mac OS.

Now if you look at macs current line, the only thing that they have that other machines don't is TB. On the other hand, there are many competitive models out there which also have features such as 3D, blu-ray, HDMI. So in terms of their laptops and desktops they are not leading anything.

They also use unibody design. Their battery life can't be matched. They also have the iPad, which takes computing to a new level of portability, and which the industry as a whole is scrambling to try and imitate. I have yet to see any manufacturer design anything remotely as good as the iMac I have in work (27"), with its wireless keypad and magic mouse (soon to be updated to the magic trackpad, another innovation), although I've seen a few bad attempts. No laptop I've seen, or used, can match my 17" MacBook Pro that I'm currently typing on for looks, sturdiness, weight, battery life, the MagSafe power connector, multi touch trackpad, etc. Although, my one peeve about it is the lack of Blu Ray. I use an adapter for HDMI, and don't mind that because I think it would be much worse to end up with loads of connection points trying to cater to everything.

Giving examples of past innovations is fine but that does not mean that they are currently leading in relation to technology. If I wanted to see the latest tech in a laptop or desktop, I would not look at apple, in fact I would have to look across many different manufacturers.

Looking at many different ones is good, not looking at Apple means you'll be missing out on future technologies. Even stuff you find in other products that may look poor and seem like a failure can be used by Apple in innovative ways to make it a huge success.

Apple did lead the smartphone revolution, they brought the portable music player to the masses, had many key innovation in regards to their OS and software, I'm not denying that, I'll take my hat off, and perhaps they used to be more on top of the game in terms of tech in their computers but I feel they have lagged behind these last few years. One of the reason's why is because they are very stubborn in putting standard peripheral connections on their products.

I'd say they've lagged behind in the sense that they are not as far ahead of the others as they used to be, but they're still ahead. They only error I think they've made with the Mac is the lack of Blu-Ray support. I know why they did it, and their reasoning, I just think they're wrong. But if they turn out to be correct, as they were when they dropped support for floppy disks, then even that one problem will not be such a big deal (but I'll still want a Blu-Ray player, I like to have tangible things that I can hold, not relying on downloads or cloud storage, etc.)

stimpson · 25-05-2011 04:12PM

stimpson wrote: »

Perhaps you could give some examples of tech that Apple has copied from another PC manufacturer or OS developer.

Still waiting on an answer to this...

psycjay · 25-05-2011 04:19PM

@Stimpson - I gave you an answer for this, It may not have been the answer you wanted, but it was an answer no less.

@John - At the end of the day there are so many features and aspects to computers that it comes down to subjectivity. What is a plus for one person is a minus for another. I also value sturdiness, looks, and power, but would sacrifice sturdiness for connectivity and felxibility. That is just my personal preference. So what I am saying is that in regards to my values, I see macs being behind, but I can also see that another person with different values would see them as ahead.

stimpson · 25-05-2011 04:44PM

psycjay wrote: »

@Stimpson - I gave you an answer for this, It may not have been the answer you wanted, but it was an answer no less.

You refused to answer :

No because that would be a pointless cat and mouse game and it is not required.

You were the one who said Apple don't innovate and are behind the curve. It's up to you to provide evidence for your proposition.

psycjay · 25-05-2011 06:18PM

stimpson wrote: »

You refused to answer :

You were the one who said Apple don't innovate and are behind the curve. It's up to you to provide evidence for your proposition.

Wrong. I said they (referring to macs hardware not the company) are not known for leading the way in terms of technology, at least not in recent years. The context of the original argument was relative to macs adoption of peripherals. And if you had bothered to read my last few posts I HAVE given examples such as blu ray, HDMI etc.

I refused to be drawn into a petty OSX vs windows cat and mouse game because that is not relevant to my argument.

muggyog · 25-05-2011 07:40PM

This innovation may have more to do with licensing than improvement.
This followed by this and then this may explain the confusion regarding ownership of Thunderbolt.

Maybe a bit of history might give an insight to Apples strategy. Initially Apple designed and built their own monitors. They had their own methods of connecting peripherals ( ADB and those 15 pin 'D' connectors). Later, when they didn't, they grudgingly used common video standards while throwing in some of their own (ADC, Mini-VGA, Micro-DVI & Mini-DVI). Even when Displayport came out they went for Mini Displayport!.

Contrariness aside, Thunderbolt seems to be a good stab at a truly 'universal serial bus' and has great potential if it catches on. Thunderbolt camera has a certain ring to it (or Light Peak camera its inevitable optical replacement!).

ZENER · 25-05-2011 08:19PM

stimpson wrote: »

Still waiting on an answer to this...

Didn't Xerox invent the mouse ?

Ken

Johnmb · 25-05-2011 09:40PM

ZENER wrote: »

Didn't Xerox invent the mouse ?

Ken

big difference between "invent" and "innovate".

stimpson · 25-05-2011 09:45PM

psycjay wrote: »

Wrong. I said they (referring to macs hardware not the company) are not known for leading the way in terms of technology, at least not in recent years. The context of the original argument was relative to macs adoption of peripherals. And if you had bothered to read my last few posts I HAVE given examples such as blu ray, HDMI etc.

I refused to be drawn into a petty OSX vs windows cat and mouse game because that is not relevant to my argument.

Even with your narrowing of the debate to hardware, then to Mac hardware and then to the past few years, you have been given plenty of examples of hardware innovation. You could add the MacBook Air and the Mac Mini to the list. I agree on blu-ray but mini Display port is easily converted to HDMI - and the latest Mini ships with HDMI.

Perhaps you would prefer if we narrow it further to full size desktop machines.

melekalikimaka · 25-05-2011 09:51PM

i don think he'll ever be happy, seems to me like its turning into trolling

psycjay · 25-05-2011 10:05PM

stimpson wrote: »

Even with your narrowing of the debate to hardware, then to Mac hardware and then to the past few years, you have been given plenty of examples of hardware innovation. You could add the MacBook Air and the Mac Mini to the list. I agree on blu-ray but mini Display port is easily converted to HDMI - and the latest Mini ships with HDMI.

Perhaps you would prefer if we barkers it further to full size desktop machines.

Yes, they innovate, like sony do, and asus, and dell, and HP etc. Most manufacturers innovate. My argument was and still is that I personally do not think they set the pace for others to follow. At the end of the day the makers of components such as processors and graphics card's etc are setting the pace anyway. The most powerful machines are built for purpose (whatever that may be). Laptops are a different story, but yet I do not see that anybody has a machine that has the best of everything. The mpb can have a very quick i7 and a good graphics card and performs brilliantly on benchmark tests, but you can get machines with better graphics capabilities if you want that, or others with better connectivity if you want that. To say that any brand sets the pace is wrong.

Thunderbolt but no USB3. iMac.

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