'State paid €530m to private schools in last five years'.

Ickle Magoo · 15-05-2011 01:31PM

No, it's not fair: the subsidy should be ended and the money invested in state schools

philologos wrote: »

Some schools deserve more. Some schools deserve less. Building projects in schools which are still in prefabs deserve construction funds, not private schools which are building another discretionary structure onto the school.

There were pre-fabs put hurriedly up in dublin thanks to the discrimination of faith schools - if the government want to be able to pick and choose where to spend funds then the schools need to be moved from the current tiered semi-private system to a state education system. For the record I don't like the current system at all and would be all for a school system where public funding is spent only on facilities that are aimed at the general public rather than wealthy private sects getting subsidised to carry out their own private aims in education.

philologos wrote: »

When? - I don't agree with entry requirements other than first come first served....

See above. One can have faith schools with a first come first served entry. That's not that problematic. I think you may have misinterpreted a lot of what I have said previously if this is your interpretation.

We very definitely had a discussion regarding faith schools not being entitled to public funds should they have any kind of discriminatory policies such as entrance or pupil selection based on faith and you argued that those parents pay tax and should not be punished via the withholding of state funds for wishing to send their children to a faith school.

If you think all schools should work on a first come, first served basis and not discriminate, ie pupils of other faiths or none should be able to get exemptions from partaking in faith based activities, then that's great - though it would seem to negate the point of having faith schools if those of that faith are unable to attend because the places have been filled at least in part by those with no interest.

philologos · 15-05-2011 01:39PM

It should be reduced significantly and more money should be invested in deprived schools

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

There were pre-fabs put hurriedly up in dublin thanks to the discrimination of faith schools - if the government want to be able to pick and choose where to spend funds then the schools need to be moved from the current tiered semi-private system to a state education system. For the record I don't like the current system at all and would be all for a school system where public funding is spent only on facilities that are aimed at the general public rather than wealthy private sects getting subsidised to carry out their own private aims in education.

This isn't exactly true Ickle Magoo. There are faith schools which largely depend on prefabs also. You know that my stance has been to fully support secular education alongside faith schools.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

We very definitely had a discussion regarding faith schools not being entitled to public funds should they have any kind of discriminatory policies such as entrance or pupil selection based on faith and you argued that those parents pay tax and should not be punished via the withholding of state funds for wishing to send their children to a faith school.

When was this? I think that faith schools shouldn't have an entry requirements based on baptism. I also think there should be secular alternatives to faith schools.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

If you think all schools should work on a first come, first served basis and not discriminate, ie pupils of other faiths or none should be able to get exemptions from partaking in faith based activities, then that's great - though it would seem to negate the point of having faith schools if those of that faith are unable to attend because the places have been filled at least in part by those with no interest.

I don't see why exemptions would be needed if there was diversity in the educational system. If there are secular and faith schools people can simply aim to get their children to go to a secular school rather than a faith school? Exemptions are only an awkward hangover of the current system where there is no choice of a secular school in the area.

If there are secular alternatives why would atheist parents decide to bring their kids to a Catholic school? There should be freedom of religion and from religion in society.

Edit: isn't this going off the topic of the thread Ickle Magoo?

byhookorbycrook · 15-05-2011 01:48PM

RMD wrote: »

It costs the state around 4200 euro to put a kid through private education while it costs 7600 to put a kid through public education. The main difference in the cost is the state only pays teachers fees and nothing else in private education, while in public education obviously everything is payed for including heating, cleaning, maintenance, capital grants etc.

Source???

byhookorbycrook · 15-05-2011 01:52PM

Nevore wrote: »

A lot of them ask for voluntary contributions. Voluntarys meaning ranging from a note sent home with the child looking for the cheque, to the naming and shaming of families that haven't coughed up, on a publicly accessible website.

Links for such websites??

Ickle Magoo · 15-05-2011 01:57PM

No, it's not fair: the subsidy should be ended and the money invested in state schools

Philogos,

I don't see how it is off-topic; objecting to public funding going towards one kind of school when a variety of schools can and do discriminate or are aimed only at a particular demographic - something faith schools and fee-paying schools have very much in common - is very much on topic.

As I see it any and all schools which are not state owned and fully secular are entitled to discriminate based on some criterion. In some faith schools that is based on parental religiosity and in others it is based on parental wealth. Whether that's the exact system you want or not is irrelevant to the argument as to whether it is a fair way of allocating public funds.

As things stand, dividing funds per pupil rather than per private facility being thrown up in the name of whatever group wanting their own brand of education is the only fair way of doing it. Until the government gets it's finger out and takes responsibility for the education system and is prepared to invest in land, buildings and resources rather than subsidise private organisations wishing their own private schooling system - as it should have done decades ago - there will continue to be no basic standard of facility....especially when the facilities that do exist are propped up in no small part by parental contributions; the level of which are always going to be dependent on geography, demographic and parental wealth/generosity.

byhookorbycrook · 15-05-2011 02:00PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

There were pre-fabs put hurriedly up in dublin thanks to the discrimination of faith schools - if the government want to be able to pick and choose where to spend funds then the schools need to be moved from the current tiered semi-private system to a state education system. For the record I don't like the current system at all and would be all for a school system where public funding is spent only on facilities that are aimed at the general public rather than wealthy private sects getting subsidised to carry out their own private aims in education.

Our entire school spent over 20 yrs in prefabs,not one single brick in the whol place. Our new school was built short two rooms,we told the DES that we weould need more rooms, but they didn't listen, so no sooner were we in the building than more building went on. How much extra did that cost the DES, never mind the "rental" on all the prefabs.

The issue in Dublin was a lack of school places, not religion. Newcomer children missed out because they were not on the school enrolement list in time. Hence, they didn't get a school place in either faith bases or ET schools

philologos · 15-05-2011 02:02PM

It should be reduced significantly and more money should be invested in deprived schools

Ickle Magoo: My understanding of entry requirements differs very much to what you've claimed it was. That's what is making it more difficult. I've said very clearly that there shouldn't be entry requirements such as baptism certificates in respect to schools. Simple as.

I don't see why we should get rid of faith schools if the education system is to be fully representative of all people in the State. That's why having both seems to be a reasonable compromise. And this isn't putting any faith group above any other group in society, it is about representing all equally at least in what I would hope it would be.

It's an entirely different question because faith schools can and are public in many cases.

Dividing funds by needs, and reducing educational inequality (in terms of standards) is the most sensible approach to funding.

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The issue in Dublin was a lack of school places, not religion. Newcomer children missed out because they were not on the school enrolement list in time. Hence, they didn't get a school place in either faith bases or ET schools

You've hit the nail on the head there.

Ickle Magoo · 15-05-2011 02:25PM

No, it's not fair: the subsidy should be ended and the money invested in state schools

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Our entire school spent over 20 yrs in prefabs,not one single brick in the whol place. Our new school was built short two rooms,we told the DES that we weould need more rooms, but they didn't listen, so no sooner were we in the building than more building went on. How much extra did that cost the DES, never mind the "rental" on all the prefabs.

20 years in prefabs is fupping ridiculous but as someone currently trying to raise sufficient private funding to get an ET secondary school off the ground, I can't say I'm surprised. What the hell does the DES actually DO here?

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The issue in Dublin was a lack of school places, not religion. Newcomer children missed out because they were not on the school enrolement list in time. Hence, they didn't get a school place in either faith bases or ET schools

You mean the enrolment system that means everyone puts names down everywhere as soon as they get pregnant because there is just a raft of semi-private educational establishments and no shared state system with designated catchment areas? Schools with legal support to pick and choose pupils according to whatever arbitrary means they wish which result in the rather large co-incidence of those with differing religion or race just happening to be the only ones not get places? Uh huh.

Let's face it, you can't have your cake and eat it and still call it a fair system. Either schools that are not offering a wholly equal and participatory service are refused public funding or they aren't.

PrincessLola · 15-05-2011 02:35PM

I don't understand what people are screaming about, if the state stopped funding private schools then fees would go way up to something like 20,000, the vast majority of people wouldn't be able to afford that and so would have to send their kids to public schools; putting more financial pressure on the state, leaving much less money left over to help the disadvantaged children.
If people can afford it they're entitled to pay for extras in their child's education, becuase thats what private schools are really, just extras.

philologos · 15-05-2011 02:37PM

It should be reduced significantly and more money should be invested in deprived schools

^^ That's fine PrincessLola, but why should these schools get equal funding to schools who need that money more. That's the dilemma if you will. Perhaps we should be aiming at a public-only system so as to give everyone an equal standard of education?

Forest Master · 15-05-2011 02:41PM

Your wording of the poll is a mess, OP.

Ickle Magoo · 15-05-2011 02:43PM

No, it's not fair: the subsidy should be ended and the money invested in state schools

If there are no state schools and just a raft of semi-private establishments each gunning to push their own educational slant sponsored by a DES who doesn't really buy land or building, how do you decide needs it most? A gaelscoil that tries to ensure the irish language doesn't die? A catholic school in disrepair with a tiny concrete yard? A town thats screaming out for an ET secondary? Who gets the scraps left in the money pot?

PrincessLola · 15-05-2011 02:43PM

philologos wrote: »

^^ That's fine PrincessLola, but why should these schools get equal funding to schools who need that money more. That's the dilemma if you will. Perhaps we should be aiming at a public-only system so as to give everyone an equal standard of education?

As far as I'm aware disadvantaged schools do get more funding, but correct me if I'm wrong.
By 'public only system' do you mean withdrawing all state funding from private schools? Because then the scenario that I've already mentioned in my other post would play out.

_Bella_ · 15-05-2011 02:45PM

No, it's not fair: the subsidy should be ended and the money invested in state schools

philologos wrote: »

^^ That's fine PrincessLola, but why should these schools get equal funding to schools who need that money more. That's the dilemma if you will. Perhaps we should be aiming at a public-only system so as to give everyone an equal standard of education?

They don't get equal funding. The Department of Education only pays for the teachers.

philologos · 15-05-2011 02:46PM

It should be reduced significantly and more money should be invested in deprived schools

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

If there are no state schools and just a raft of semi-private establishments each gunning to push their own educational slant sponsored by a DES who doesn't really buy land or building, how do you decide needs it most? A gaelscoil that tries to ensure the irish language doesn't die? A catholic school in disrepair with a tiny concrete yard? A town thats screaming out for an ET secondary? Who gets the scraps left in the money pot?

I think the ET secondary should be built. In my area most of the local politicians are behind building one so I have no doubt one will be built.

This discussion has far far scope than faith schools. It has to do with much more basic things like classroom environment, school structure, and general educational quality in teaching the curriculum. Those can be assessed in any school no matter if it is a Gaelscoil, an ET school, or a faith school.

Bella, that's false. Fee paying schools have received structural funds from the State for construction. It was discussed on RTÉ Radio 1 earlier today.

Ickle Magoo · 15-05-2011 02:59PM

No, it's not fair: the subsidy should be ended and the money invested in state schools

When discussing refusing public funding to one educational establishment while claiming it's perfectly acceptable to fund another based on only the fact you find the demographic one aims at distasteful while fully approving of the other has everything to do with the points being made. I didn't miss the deliberate stress on pushing for "equal standard" nor that you choose not to support provision of an equal education system, full stop.

Say you succeed, all public funding is withdrawn and many families can no longer afford to send their children to fee-paying schools, where are those extra pupils going to go and do you think the extra resources, building and teachers required are going to be any less than is currently given to the fee-paying school? Presumably that would also mean schools will have to stop this fee by any other name "parental contribution" business and rely wholly on public funding - anything else is just grossly unfair, isn't it? So you succeed in increasing the cost of state funding in education, increase the numbers of pupils requiring state funded education and do nothing about the volumes of different schools each area would require in order to cater for each and every ethos of it's residents. And you think that's the ticket to a better standard of education in ireland?

philologos · 15-05-2011 03:04PM

It should be reduced significantly and more money should be invested in deprived schools

Ickle Magoo, I support equal provision of schools for both faith groups and secular groups teaching the same basic curriculum. That's pretty simple. Claiming otherwise is dishonest and is missing the general point of the discussion. *

I think it is best to improve the general character of education. If the costs are too much and the schools go out on the wayside the State could offer to take ownership of the schools. By the by, it is important to note that International Schools which don't receive any state funding due to not teaching the State curriculum manage to survive.

* I have no ulterior motives, I've mentioned already that I went to a private school.

dotsman · 15-05-2011 03:05PM

No, it's not fair: the subsidy should be ended and the money invested in state schools

Bambi wrote: »

Who knows, we might not have found ourselves financially ruined if we had broken up the ascendancy of the old boys club that run/ruin this country

Are you trying to imply that the vast majority of our TD's/Union leaders are graduates of fee-paying schools? Do you have any figures to back this up (as I would have thought it was the opposite)

byhookorbycrook · 15-05-2011 03:19PM

dotsman wrote: »

Are you trying to imply that the vast majority of our TD's/Union leaders are graduates of fee-paying schools? Do you have any figures to back this up (as I would have thought it was the opposite)

Somewhat outdate but:
FIANNA Fail accounts for the country's highest number of privately-educated TDs, with one in every seven deputies having attended a fee-paying school.
Excluding the two seats left vacant by the departures of Charlie McCreevy and John Bruton . . . both of whom were educated at fee-paying schools . . . 18 of the 164 sitting TDs before Friday's by-elections attended private second-level institutions.
Leaving aside yesterday's election results, 11 Fianna Fail TDs . . . roughly one in seven . . . and three Fine Gael TDs . . . roughly one in 10 . . .attended fee-paying schools.
Two of the Labour Party's 21 TDs had a private secondlevel education, Ruairi Quinn and Liz McManus. One PD . . .
Michael McDowell . . . attended a fee-paying school, while Trevor Sargent is the only Green TD to have attended a private secondary school.
Across all parties, some 11% of TDs attended fee-paying schools. This figure is highest in Dublin, where roughly onequarter of TDs attended private schools.
The 18 privately-educated TDs attended 13 different schools. Despite the fact that the TDs hail from seven different counties, 11 of the schools were located in Dublin. The most popular private school for TDs is Blackrock College, which educated Rory O'Hanlon, Ruairi Quinn, Barry Andrews and Jimmy Devins. Dublin's Belvedere College educated three members of the Dail . . .Richard Bruton, Conor Lenihan and Brian Lenihan.
Cistercian College in Roscrea, Co Tipperary educated Gerald Murphy, Jim Glennon and the Minister for Foreign Affairs Brian Cowen.
Justice minister Michael McDowell attended both Pembroke School and Gonzaga College, both of which are fee-paying, while current MEP Eoin Ryan attended St Mary's, Rathmines.
The remaining TDs to have attended private school are:

Sile De Valera (Loreto Convent), Simon Coveney (Clongowes), Trevor Sargent (The High School), Michael Mulcahy (St Conleth's), Liz McManus (Holy Child Convent, Killiney) and Joe Jacob (Terenure College).
The Dail has a higher proportion of privately-educated members than the Seanad, with just four of the country's 60 senators having attended fee-paying schools.
Two Fianna Fail senators and two independents attended fee-paying schools.
Fianna Fail senators Marc MacSharry and John Gerard Hanafin attended Castleknock College and Cistercian College respectively, while Mary Henry (Alexandra College) and David Norris (The High School) also received private education.
FAMOUS ALUMNI OF FEE-PAYING SCHOOLS
St Columba's College, Whitechurch, Dublin:
Adam Clayton (musician), William Trevor (author) Alexandra College, Milltown, Dublin:
Clare McKeon (author) Susan Denham (judge) Glenstal Abbey, Limerick:
Des Keogh (actor) Mount Anville, Dublin:
Mary Robinson (expresident) The High School, Rathgar, Dublin:
Denis O'Brien (businessman) William Butler Yeats (poet) Wesley College, Ballinteer, Dublin:
George Bernard Shaw (author) Eric Miller (rugby player) Belvedere College, Dublin:
James Joyce (author) Desmond Connell (cardinal) Tony O'Reilly (rugby player and businessman) Richard Bruton (FG TD) Conor Lenihan (FF TD) Brian Lenihan (FF TD) Blackrock College, Dublin:
Eamon de Valera (politician) Bob Geldof (musician) Ardal O'Hanlon (comedian/actor) Ruairi Quinn (Labour TD) Michael Buckley (businessman) Brian O'Driscoll (rugby player) Barry Andrews (FF TD) Clongowes Wood, Co Kildare:
Michael O'Leary (Ryanair chief executive) John Bruton (politician) Simon Coveney (FG TD)
http://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2005/mar/13/fianna-fail-tops-fee-paying-list/

Ickle Magoo · 15-05-2011 03:19PM

No, it's not fair: the subsidy should be ended and the money invested in state schools

philologos wrote: »

Ickle Magoo, I support equal provision of schools for both faith groups and secular groups teaching the same basic curriculum. That's pretty simple. Claiming otherwise is dishonest and is missing the general point of the discussion.

That refutation is missing the both the point I made and the point of the discussion - which is paying private schools out of state coffers - the point that is being side-lined, hidden and quite deliberately avoided behind claims of off-topicness and fluffied around general discussion points is that in ireland it's a damn sight more than €530m going to private institutional education - pretty much ALL schools fall under that same banner, the only difference being the level of additional funding from parents.

philologos · 15-05-2011 03:21PM

It should be reduced significantly and more money should be invested in deprived schools

They are schools which are open to the public as such for all intents and purposes they are public. Private schools are schools which are only open to those who can pay.

There's nothing being avoided it is just that the discussion is about fee-paying (private) schools receiving State funding for construction projects and other such things.

Ickle Magoo · 15-05-2011 03:38PM

No, it's not fair: the subsidy should be ended and the money invested in state schools

The school that I tried to get my kids into was only open to a specific demographic - what's the difference? Where we differ in view is that "to all intents and purposes" seems to me like a remarkably handy cover-all for the fact that they actually don't. It could be argued that there are scholar-ships available in fee-paying schools so "for all intents and purposes" they are open to all as well...

Until the majority of schools are state owned then the state is in the ludicrous position of being almost entirely reliant on private organisations and entities taking on the responsibility of providing state-aided education. If it's perfectly acceptable to subsidise schools owned and run by wealthy private organisations in some instances then there is no reason to arbitrarily refuse to do it in others - unless the refusal is also across the board and you mean to demand entirely private funding for those organisations who have the means and motivations to run schools aimed at whatever specific demographics they wish.

dotsman · 15-05-2011 03:52PM

No, it's not fair: the subsidy should be ended and the money invested in state schools

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Somewhat outdate but:
FIANNA Fail accounts for the country's highest number of privately-educated TDs, with one in every seven deputies having attended a fee-paying school.
Excluding the two seats left vacant by the departures of Charlie McCreevy and John Bruton . . . both of whom were educated at fee-paying schools . . . 18 of the 164 sitting TDs before Friday's by-elections attended private second-level institutions.
Leaving aside yesterday's election results, 11 Fianna Fail TDs . . . roughly one in seven . . . and three Fine Gael TDs . . . roughly one in 10 . . .attended fee-paying schools.
Two of the Labour Party's 21 TDs had a private secondlevel education, Ruairi Quinn and Liz McManus. One PD . . .
Michael McDowell . . . attended a fee-paying school, while Trevor Sargent is the only Green TD to have attended a private secondary school.
Across all parties, some 11% of TDs attended fee-paying schools. This figure is highest in Dublin, where roughly onequarter of TDs attended private schools.
The 18 privately-educated TDs attended 13 different schools. Despite the fact that the TDs hail from seven different counties, 11 of the schools were located in Dublin. The most popular private school for TDs is Blackrock College, which educated Rory O'Hanlon, Ruairi Quinn, Barry Andrews and Jimmy Devins. Dublin's Belvedere College educated three members of the Dail . . .Richard Bruton, Conor Lenihan and Brian Lenihan.
Cistercian College in Roscrea, Co Tipperary educated Gerald Murphy, Jim Glennon and the Minister for Foreign Affairs Brian Cowen.
Justice minister Michael McDowell attended both Pembroke School and Gonzaga College, both of which are fee-paying, while current MEP Eoin Ryan attended St Mary's, Rathmines.
The remaining TDs to have attended private school are:

Sile De Valera (Loreto Convent), Simon Coveney (Clongowes), Trevor Sargent (The High School), Michael Mulcahy (St Conleth's), Liz McManus (Holy Child Convent, Killiney) and Joe Jacob (Terenure College).
The Dail has a higher proportion of privately-educated members than the Seanad, with just four of the country's 60 senators having attended fee-paying schools.
Two Fianna Fail senators and two independents attended fee-paying schools.
Fianna Fail senators Marc MacSharry and John Gerard Hanafin attended Castleknock College and Cistercian College respectively, while Mary Henry (Alexandra College) and David Norris (The High School) also received private education.

...

http://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2005/mar/13/fianna-fail-tops-fee-paying-list/

Yup, just I suspected...

On a different note, a socialist, populist, sensationalist article from RTE today on funds for fee-paying schools. Despite the concentration of the article being on how much money the fee-paying schools received, hidden away towards the bottom of the article is the most important bit:

RTE wrote:

This represents nearly 1.5% of the money spent on buildings in secondary schools in the period 2000 - 2011

So, after all the socialist Labour's moaning and threats, it turns out that fee-paying schools only received 1.5% (ie proportionally a lot less than non-fee-paying schools) of funding.

Guy:Incognito · 15-05-2011 04:17PM

Havnt read any of this yet but is it just a rehash of the story thats put out every now and again since the recession started? I definately remember commenting on a thread about a year ago.

Seems to be another one of those things (like pretty much everythign money is spent on) that no one gave a crap about until the media decided since theres a recession on they would sensationalise every penny spent by the government, often times with added "talking from the most vulnerable in society angle"

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 15-05-2011 04:25PM

It should be reduced significantly and more money should be invested in deprived schools

Gene Kerrigan brought this up in an article a few weeks ago. He points out that many schools have discriminatory entry policies, such as Gonzaga College which refuses to accept students from north of the Liffey. Is this based on anything other than elitism and snobbery?

byhookorbycrook · 15-05-2011 04:40PM

"The DES provides the salaries of a number of teachers determined by a pupil-teacher ratio of 18:1. " In our public primary we have 30 to 1. Nice for Gonzaga...

Sons and grandsons of Past Pupils are also given priority over other applicants. This was the cause of a legal case in a school in Clonmel recently and was overturned as it was deemed to be unfair. But Gonzaga still can use this??

Brothers of present, or recently past, pupils who will benefit from the curriculum and whose families have enjoyed good relations with the College in the past will receive the greatest priority. These applicants are not interviewed ???????

Dyr · 15-05-2011 04:41PM

dotsman wrote: »

Are you trying to imply that the vast majority of our TD's/Union leaders are graduates of fee-paying schools? Do you have any figures to back this up (as I would have thought it was the opposite)

lol, you think that trade unionists and TD's bankrupted this country?

Amhran Nua · 15-05-2011 04:44PM

dotsman wrote: »

So, after all the socialist Labour's moaning and threats, it turns out that fee-paying schools only received 1.5% (ie proportionally a lot less than non-fee-paying schools) of funding.

Wouldn't that mean only 1.5% of students are in fee paying schools? Doesn't sound too far out of the ballpark, and would certainly not overwhelm the system if fee paying schools had to close.

Whatever the case, no institution in receipt of public funds should be allowed to apply discriminatory entry policies. End of.

philologos · 15-05-2011 04:47PM

It should be reduced significantly and more money should be invested in deprived schools

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

The school that I tried to get my kids into was only open to a specific demographic - what's the difference?

I've told you already that I believe that entry requirements on the basis of adherence, baptism certs, etc should be removed. This doesn't weaken my current argument as far as I would see it.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 15-05-2011 04:55PM

It should be reduced significantly and more money should be invested in deprived schools

dotsman wrote: »

Are you trying to imply that the vast majority of our TD's/Union leaders are graduates of fee-paying schools? Do you have any figures to back this up (as I would have thought it was the opposite)

Ruairi Quinn himself went to Blackrock College. Richard Bruton attended Belvdere College, and Clongowes (Very Joycean) the latter of which Simon Coveney also attended until he was expelled and attended Presentation Brothers College in Cork. Alan Shatter attended the High School in Dublin. Other than that, I think all of our current cabinet attended public schools.

'State paid €530m to private schools in last five years'.

Comments