unscrupulous sellers

walks86 · 13-05-2011 10:16pm #1

So I have just found that 2 of my guns (well one is mine, one is my brother's) recently purchased (within the last year) were both downgraded in a very cheap and nasty way which is now going to require (1 has been already) fixing out of my own pocket. Another of my friends who got their AEG from the same place (at my recommendation) has the same issue. That is that to downgrade our AEGs to the legal limit they drilled the cylinder.....

for those who don't know what that means or why it is bad it is where you drill a hole in the cylinder so some of the air being pushed from the gearbox by the piston etc vents out the side reducing the power of the air pushing the BB. Now this is very effective and is great for chrono'ing....however as soon as you try to put the hop up on you run into issues as with more resistance to the BB, more air vents out of the hole in the cylinder mean that your shots lose more power and your hop up is ineffective.

I also found that some of the nice high end pieces that should have been in my gearbox (this is a very nice king arms free float sniper) had been replaced by much cheaper parts, I'm assuming when they were trying to downgrade it.

So what I want to know is this:

1.What are my rights in this situation, I have been sold a product that is defective by the seller (which they made defective themselves and intentionally did not inform me what they had done, claiming the AEG was working 100%). I'm assuming this is illegal.

2. Am I allowed Name and Shame the shop in question here on boards?I would very much like to warn others about them and/or shame them into stopping this disgusting practice!in case any one is wondering, these were not low end AEGs, retailing around 350-400 each.

Private Snafu · 13-05-2011 10:21pm

I reckon 99% of users here have a good idea of who you're talking about

se conman · 13-05-2011 10:28pm

With regard to nameing and shameing , for your own sake , drop a PM off to a Mod.

Puding · 13-05-2011 10:32pm

unfortunately this practice is legal although i have successful advised people to return goods to retailers who do this although this may not be an option in this case as you appear to have already opened the aeg and corrected the issue

i personally do not like the practice and always advice people to check how an aeg is downgraded before purchasing anything

walks86 · 13-05-2011 10:34pm

are you sure it is legal?because it is intentionally impairing the AEG which they are not telling the customer...

swiftblade · 13-05-2011 10:38pm

What was it chronoing at when it left the store?

TNTQ · 13-05-2011 10:38pm

Puding · 13-05-2011 10:38pm

the counter argument would be put forward that you intentionally impairing an aeg with a lower spring to limit the aeg to 1j and drilling the cylinder is just another way of 'limiting' the aeg to 1j

illegal maybe not but bad practice yes in my book and tbh retailers will only stop doing it if customer ( shock horror yes you do have powers ) but pressure on retailers

walks86 · 13-05-2011 10:40pm

Puding wrote: »

the counter argument would be put forward that you intentionally impairing an aeg with a lower spring to limit the aeg to 1j and drilling the cylinder is just another way of 'limiting' the aeg to 1j

illegal maybe not but bad practice yes in my book and tbh retailers will only stop doing it if customer ( shock horror yes you do have powers ) but pressure on retailers

I would disagree with that argument as downgrading with a lower spring does not impair the hop up, AEG works as intended just at a lower power level

swiftblade · 13-05-2011 10:40pm

Puding wrote: »

the counter argument would be put forward that you intentionally impairing an aeg with a lower spring to limit the aeg to 1j and drilling the cylinder is just another way of 'limiting' the aeg to 1j

illegal maybe not but bad practice yes in my book and tbh retailers will only stop doing it if customer ( shock horror yes you do have powers ) but pressure on retailers

The sad fact is Puding, I know of only one retailer still continuing this practice. Most of the others have moved on.

Puding · 13-05-2011 10:45pm

walks86 wrote: »

I would disagree with that argument as downgrading with a lower spring does not impair the hop up, AEG works as intended just at a lower power level

personally i agree with you for this and other reason, but i think it would be hard to hold it up as a 'legal' issue ( please not that the counter argument i mentioned was not my own but rather that used by retailers in the past )

NakedDex · 13-05-2011 10:58pm

It's not at all illegal really, it's essentially just another method of downgrading. How it effects performance isn't of any concern to the authorities, once it doesn't reach above the 1J mark. It's unfortunate but it's not changing any time soon.
I see where you're coming from when you say it's impairing the performance, but it was sold to you as a <1J rifle. Any dramatic loss in performance is a matter for the warranty, not the Sale of Goods act. If the warranty has expired, you're rather on your own. If it's valid but the retailer is refusing to honour it, then you may have some recourse legally, but it'd be cheaper to have it fixed elsewhere (unless you happen to have a solicitor friend...).

The fact that it's a grey area with the risk all being on the consumers side is the reason why your retailer is taking advantage of it. It's pretty abysmal as customer service goes, but not every retailer in this business actually cares. Most do, some go above-and-beyond to help, but there's the odd one who would rather milk money wherever possible.

swiftblade · 13-05-2011 11:06pm

NakedDex wrote: »

It's not at all illegal really, it's essentially just another method of downgrading. How it effects performance isn't of any concern to the authorities, once it doesn't reach above the 1J mark. It's unfortunate but it's not changing any time soon.
I see where you're coming from when you say it's impairing the performance, but it was sold to you as a <1J rifle. Any dramatic loss in performance is a matter for the warranty, not the Sale of Goods act. If the warranty has expired, you're rather on your own. If it's valid but the retailer is refusing to honour it, then you may have some recourse legally, but it'd be cheaper to have it fixed elsewhere (unless you happen to have a solicitor friend...).

The fact that it's a grey area with the risk all being on the consumers side is the reason why your retailer is taking advantage of it. It's pretty abysmal as customer service goes, but not every retailer in this business actually cares. Most do, some go above-and-beyond to help, but there's the odd one who would rather milk money wherever possible.

That's why I asked him what it was chronoing at. He might have a case there.

I saw recently a young chap bought an AEG from said store. When chronoing, it was over, well over in fact. 350-370 FPS. Still had the "Warrenty Sticker" on the gearbox.

Something is not right there. And yes it was drilled.

Puding · 13-05-2011 11:08pm

swiftblade wrote: »

That's why I asked him what it was chronoing at. He might have a case there.

I saw recently a young chap bought an AEG from said store. When chronoing, it was over, well over in fact. 350-370 FPS. Still had the "Warrenty Sticker" on the gearbox.

Something is not right there. And yes it was drilled.

not really a unique issue

spent many a weekend fixing this very 'issue'

swiftblade · 13-05-2011 11:11pm

Puding wrote: »

not really a unique issue spent many a weekend fixing this very 'issue'

It made my blood boil. :mad: He payed good money, like the OP, for what he assumed was a good buy. He had to play with a rental for the day.

I am confident if they took the time to downgrade without drilling, we wouldn't see the likes of them issues.

Decoy · 13-05-2011 11:40pm

I've mentioned this on another recent thread, can't recall which one for the moment, but drilling the cylinder is a practice in common use by more than one retailer. I can see in what direction some posters are not-so-subtley pointing the finger, I suggest they do some research on other retailers!

Whenever I buy an AEG (which isn't very often) I specify that I want any downgrade required to be done by way of a spring change rather than drilling the cylinder/air nozzle even if ithis means I have to pay for a new spring. I do this because I believe it is the best way to downgrade. If a buyer doesn't bother to ask which way their AEG has been downgraded before purchase I don't see how they can then give out when they discover (some time later!) that a method they don't approve of has been employed.

In relation to the case of the gun mentioned above that was running hot. This happens to EVERY retailer now & again, I have heard stories about >1j guns leaving the premises of many retailers that I consider to be reputable. It happens. I completely agree that it should never happen, but it does.

OutsiderAkuma · 13-05-2011 11:46pm

Can someone pm so I know who it is? To stay clear off them! I think I may know who it is, but I prob dont

Puding · 13-05-2011 11:53pm

If a buyer doesn't bother to ask which way their AEG has been downgraded before purchase I don't see how they can then give out when they discover (some time later!) that a method they don't approve of has been employed.

and what about a new player who may not know better? should they be penalized for not knowing better...

Donnchadh1 · 13-05-2011 11:55pm

New round here but I'm just wondering why this retailer cannot be named?

What's the purpose of this forum if it can't at least protect members from buying gear that is going to cost the buyer extra in the long run to rectify.

Also mechantable quality and goods fit for purpose spring to mind

swiftblade · 13-05-2011 11:56pm

Also a store that goes to the bother of putting a "Waranty Void" sticker on the gearbox should at least take the time to chrono properly.
Now i could understand say if it was a few FPS over. Spring bedding in ect, but 50 FPS? Something is seriouly wrong in their quality control.

TNTQ · 13-05-2011 11:56pm

Drilling or 'venting' is bad for your aeg in the long run - fact. There is no argument for it other than an economic one.

To use an analogy...

The legal upper speed limit in Ireland is 120kmph. What sort of a reaction would there be if garages started drilling holes in the engine blocks* to limit speed rather than use some more labour intensive method incorporating electronics, etc. It might be ok as the car leaves the forecourt, it may even be ok if you drive it around a bit, but in the long run, its a gonna be fooked.

* I am not a mechanic and I know this makes no sense, but thats the point.

I know cars are a more expensive item, but you tell that to the young guy who saved up his E200 to buy his first AEG.

NakedDex · 14-05-2011 12:06am

Donnchadh1 wrote: »

New round here but I'm just wondering why this retailer cannot be named?

What's the purpose of this forum if it can't at least protect members from buying gear that is going to cost the buyer extra in the long run to rectify.

Also mechantable quality and goods fit for purpose spring to mind

Legal issues with libel and slander. "Naming and shaming" is disallowed on Boards.ie as a general rule. The board is a discussion forum, not a protective body.

Also, Sale of Goods act doesn't really apply here. It's a grey area, but one exploited by a minority to their own end.

walks86 · 14-05-2011 12:12am

it was firing around 310 when being chronoed but got terrible range as the hop up wudnt work due to the afore mentioned cylinder drilling. What is even worse is that I brought it back in saying so (that range was rubbish) and they took it off me then gave it back saying they couldnt find any issue with the Hop up and didnt know what the issue was instead of coming clean about drilling it!!

and the amusing thing is that someone PMd me to ask who it was and were actually shocked at my answer...

Decoy · 14-05-2011 12:44am

TNTQ wrote:

There is no argument for it other than an economic one

This is a key point that few people want to ackowledge. Retailers I am familiar with charge €25-35 just to open a gearbox (in relation to repairs). A spring costs ~€10. Would Irish airsofters be willing to pay an extra €35-45 for their AEGs just to ensure it was not downgraded by drilling?

Donnchadh1 · 14-05-2011 12:53am

NakedDex wrote: »

Legal issues with libel and slander. "Naming and shaming" is disallowed on Boards.ie as a general rule. The board is a discussion forum, not a protective body.

Also, Sale of Goods act doesn't really apply here. It's a grey area, but one exploited by a minority to their own end.

NakedDex,

A discussion forum that does not allow for open discussion....
And there's plenty of protection on the airsoft adverts page(and fair play to that)

boards.ie Legal issues and libel laws are handy to use when needed but yet there's stickys on the apple media devices how to jailbreak your iphone:rolleyes:

This guy bought something from somewhere. I don't get how that could be libel.

I don't know enough to comment on sale of goods and supply act to comment.

We're prob discussing a bigger issue and not suited for here but id like to know so it doesn't happen to me either way I'll be taking Decoys line if I'm in the market.

Cheers

D.

DICEMAN7 · 14-05-2011 12:55am

Decoy wrote: »

This is a key point that few people want to ackowledge. Retailers I am familiar with charge €25-35 just to open a gearbox (in relation to repairs). A spring costs ~€10. Would Irish airsofters be willing to pay an extra €35-45 for their AEGs just to ensure it was not downgraded by drilling?

well a decent retailer would downgrade by a spring change.

TNTQ · 14-05-2011 1:03am

Decoy wrote: »

This is a key point that few people want to ackowledge. Retailers I am familiar with charge €25-35 just to open a gearbox (in relation to repairs). A spring costs ~€10. Would Irish airsofters be willing to pay an extra €35-45 for their AEGs just to ensure it was not downgraded by drilling?

The cost of springs is minimal on the retailer front (if they ask the right guys

)

To be honest I'm not in the position of having to look at 100+ aegs on a pallet and saying to myself. We could drill all these aegs in a day or I can go and hire 3 guys and let them at it for the week.

If you know that most of the aegs will be sold to plinkers who will shoot a few targets in their garden then i can see the sense in it. I dont agree, but I see it.

Its horses for courses.

We mainly deal with guys who've been in the sport for a while and are pretty knowledgeable so the thoughts of venting their stuff would be a no no.

Decoy · 14-05-2011 1:37am

DICEMAN7 wrote: »

well a decent retailer would downgrade by a spring change.

I think that's being rather naive Diceman. I believe if you went to any site around Ireland this Sunday and opened up all the AEGs you would be shocked at the number of AEGs with drilled cylinders or nozzles that you would find. And proportionally there wouldn't be any more with the sticker alluded to by previous posters than without.

How many players actually ask how their AEG was downgraded before they part with their money and leave the shop?

hightower1 · 14-05-2011 1:56am

Decoy wrote: »

How many players actually ask how their AEG was downgraded before they part with their money and leave the shop?

Well one would assume that if an item had to be modified by a professional the job itself would be exactly that... professional....ie not limiting the aeg impairing another function while trying to solve one issue. Rule of thumb if your modifying ANYTHING.... dont cause one problem while trying to fix another other wise its the definition of amateurish.

There is always a limit where a consumer should ask questions but likewise there is always a limit to which you have a trust between retailer and consumer. If taken that you should always ask how an aeg was downgraded should we also as for full video documentation of the work? For a guarantee that all functions and possible functions of the aeg are not impaired by such work? That all fixing screws and fittings were placed back in fully working order and not damaged?... of coarse not... the notion sounds silly because it is. There is a realistic level of expectation / trust between the two parties and damaging a primary characteristic of the item in order to make it legal is definitely not a grey area that one should or should not have to ask.

Put it this way... if you called a lock smith out as your keys were left in your car and he arrived and kicked the window in. You now have your keys and are on your way but another function of the car has been impaired by his "methodology" .... you certainly wouldn't stand for it.

Merch · 14-05-2011 2:06am

Donnchadh1 wrote: »

New round here but I'm just wondering why this retailer cannot be named?

What's the purpose of this forum if it can't at least protect members from buying gear that is going to cost the buyer extra in the long run to rectify.

Also mechantable quality and goods fit for purpose spring to mind

Can someone name a few reputable dealers (preferably in and around dublin) instead of naming a disreputable one?:)

DICEMAN7 · 14-05-2011 2:17am

Decoy wrote: »

I think that's being rather naive Diceman. I believe if you went to any site around Ireland this Sunday and opened up all the AEGs you would be shocked at the number of AEGs with drilled cylinders or nozzles that you would find. And proportionally there wouldn't be any more with the sticker alluded to by previous posters than without.

How many players actually ask how their AEG was downgraded before they part with their money and leave the shop?

im sorry no i wouldnt be shocked if i knew which retailers the AEGS were bought from and as was stated before a new player going into a shop to part with his hard earned cash at least he should expect the AEG to be downgraded properly and as the OP stated he dropped 300 to 400 euro on high end AEGS so the retailer could have downgraded them right.

unscrupulous sellers

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