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SEAI and Bord Gais in cahoots. Anti-competition?

  • 27-04-2011 12:49PM
    #1
    wirehairmax
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 678 ✭✭✭


    In the last few days I have learnt that SEAI and Bord Gais have teamed up in a scheme connected to the Home Energy savings scheme. There was a supplement in the Sunday World last Sunday about Green homes or something to that effect. Bord Gais had a feature within, in which they proudly proclaim they are in partnership with the SEAI. It seems that they have secured preferential treatment from the SEAI over private contractors. This smacks of anti-competition to me. My key points of objection are:
    1 Bord Gais are now allowed apply on behalf of the home-owner for H.E.S. grants. If a private contractor were to do this they would be subject to diciplinary procedures by the SEAI.e.g. penalty points and/or ultimate removal from the Contractors list. This gives Bord Gais an unfair advantage when dealing with the public especially vulnerable and older people who can sometimes be afraid of form-filling. I just wonder will Bord Gais be going door-to-door and cold calling selling this service. Many of you are familiar with the type of salespeople employed by energy and utility companies these days. More often than not,they earn their money on a commission only basis and so are far pushier than many people would like. Once they get people signed up there is a pre-payment to be made before any works commences. The terms and conditions are 17 pages long. Imagine a vulnerable O.A.P trying to decipher all that? Bord Gais will also run a credit check on a customer before they will carry out any work. Easy for a one of the largest semi-state companies to do but not so for a contractor
    2 Bord Gais allow the payment to be made in monthly installments. Again, the private contractor is at a disadvantage here as what contractor these days can afford to wait 12-24 months for payment. There is also the issue of the Declaration of Works forms. At present this has to be signed and declared that the contractor is paid in full before any grant payment is refunded to the customer. A false declaration by the contractor is liable to diciplinary procedures as above. Are there different forms for Bord Gais? I couldnt get an answer from the SEAI when I questioned this?
    3 Contractors are not allowed to use SEAI logos on their vehicles, letterheads or marketing material. Also a private contractor cannot declare themselves to be approved/partners of the SEAI. Again diciplinary procedures are in place for any contractors found to contravene this condition. Bord Gais are loud and proud in declaring their association with the SEAI.
    4 BER assessors: Bord Gais are refunding the a further €100 if they undertake the insulation/boiler upgrades. This leaves the BER cert free to the customer so who are the customer going to choose to do the BER?

    I have phoned the SEAI this morning to query all this and it was all confirmed to me verbally. Of course I got no explaination or reason why this has all taken place. I questioned the fairness and anti-competition aspect of the scheme but was met with silence or glib answers.
    What do other contractors/assessors think of all this?


Comments

  • #2
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,913 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Are Bord Gais acting as contractor in this scheme?? i think not.
    It sounds very similar to the Warmer Homes Scheme, and specifically to the role bodies like EAGA have in it.

    They act as an umberlla organisation assessing interest in teh scheme, and then tender out the jobs in batchs in different areas. Individual contractors can then tender for these batchs.

    Have you confirmed that Bord Gais is actualy acting as the contractor here???

    loot at page 128 and 129 here to see how the SEAI administer these programmes


  • #3
    wirehairmax
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 678 ✭✭✭wirehairmax


    Hi Syd,
    Rang Bord Gais again just to confirm the points I made earlier and also just to clarify your reply and it was confirmed to me that it is indeed Bord Gais that carry out the works in competition to other contractors on the registered HES scheme. Their home consultants are employees of Bord Gais and all works take place in-house.


  • #4
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,913 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    well that sounds completely anti competitive!!

    I wouldnt bother with SEAI on this. AFAIK they can work along these lines... but id be getting onto the competition authority and asking them to look into it.

    As SEAI are funded by the exchequre i always though that tenders worth more than (i think) €5k to EU thresholds had to go to full public procurement if not part of a framework.....

    direct invitation to tender must include at least 5 bodies


  • #5
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    now I may be wrong but, this seems like an unexpected side-effect of this 'pay as you save' scheme, entered into by the energy providers as part of there commitment under recent legislation


  • #6
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,913 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    well if its PAYS scheme, then it makes sense that the utilities would keep it in housein that, as my understanding of the scheme, the utilites would be underwriting some if not most of the costs of the work (through loans from financial institutions), and the client pays back incrementally to the utility through their bill over time. maybe the client i ssupposed to orgnise the funds... i dont know...

    but is this now part of the HES and funded by the 50 million in the budget???


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  • #7
    wirehairmax
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 678 ✭✭✭wirehairmax


    From what I have gathered so far Bord Gais will be in direct competition with contractors with the unfair advantages already outlined earlier. There is no way a level playing field in action here. A semi-state company should be subject to the same conditions placed on the rest of us. They already have the advantage of almost infinite resources and marketing budget etc without being allowed to flout the guidelines and restrictions in place for everybody else.
    Has anybody ever taken a serious complaint to the SEAI and got results?
    I wrote them a letter of complaint about an audit and couldnt get a reply, or even an acknowledgement. They said they never got it even though I replied to an email from them. Yet they wont answer queries and grievances on the phone?


  • #8
    muffler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 46,877 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    Its an interesting development but I'd say Bord Gais have their asses well and truly covered in relation to "protocol".

    Regarding the ability to spread the cost of the works over 2 years I would imagine (as alluded to by sydthebeat above) that there is a finance agreement built into the T & C's.. Something like you see some large furniture retailer advertising a full sitting room kit out and pay nothing for the first 6 months or whatever and then maybe €40 a month for 3 years

    People should avoid this scheme imo as it will cost them twice the amount that they would pay a private contactor. The only difference is the ability to spread the payment over a set period of time.

    I'll copy and paste 2 posts from a thread here to illustrate this point.
    u2thepale wrote: »
    Lads just in case people aren't aware ...

    http://www.bordgaisenergy.ie/home/services/insulation/

    Have an appointment next week with Bord Gais , looks promising all things considered, would prefer to be paying on my utility bill per month than having to cough up all the dough upfront and then wait to get my grant ..
    muffler wrote: »
    The problem with the Bord Gais set up is that you are going to be out of pocket by a minimum of €1350 over 2 years which includes an upfront payment of €470.

    For the size of house they have in mind Id expect to have it insulated by standard contract for around €1350 - €1500 maximum and when you deduct the grant you're looking at an out of pocket cost of €600 - €750.

    Doesn't make any sense for anyone to go down this route other than being able to pay for it over 2 years. Why not go to the credit union and get a loan and have it paid back in 1 year for the same monthly repayments.


  • #9
    heinbloed
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    This scheme was already condemned years ago. See

    http://www.constructireland.ie/index.php?option=com_myblog&Itemid=107&lang=en&show=How-to-convince-householders-to-energy-upgrade-.html

    I actually offered around €350.- for an analysis on how much energy would be saved by this rip-off scheme. No one picked up the money.
    The offer still stands: €350.- for a water-proof cost/benefit analysis (monetarian investment versus saved kilowatt hours).

    This wouldn't be enough to cover the science work, but sure someone would top-up this sum?
    Or has time and patience to work away....


  • #10
    Carlow52
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,389 ✭✭✭Carlow52


    the T and C's are in the middle of this page

    http://www.bordgaisenergy.ie/home/services/insulation/

    Also of interest
    *The package price is €1,350 for attic and cavity wall insulation and a BER (Building Energy Rating) including total savings of €1,000 (SEAI Grant & Bord Gáis Energy Discount). This is a reference only and may vary depending on house type, size and structure. All services are subject to an assessment and a detailed quotation will be provided. **Figures based on 20% deposit, interest free payment, over 24 months, up to a 4 bedroom home, SEAI grant approval and completion of a BER (Building Energy Rating). ***This includes a €100 grant from SEAI and a €100 discount from Bord Gáis Energy towards the cost of a BER (Building Energy Rating).


  • #11
    heinbloed
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    From Poland first experiences are trickling in:

    http://www.solarthermalworld.org/node/2892


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  • #12
    wirehairmax
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 678 ✭✭✭wirehairmax


    Are Bord Gais installers and assessors subject to the same Code of Practice and penalty points that private contractors have to adhere to? Already they are allowed flout marketing and payment guidelines, so what else are they allowed ignore? Is there a different declaration of works form for Bord Gais?
    Is anyone here in the CIF? Is there anyone else worth contacting to tackle this? Is anyone here going to the Red Cow this Friday to the BER assessors association event?


  • #13
    JohnnyHogg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 ✭JohnnyHogg


    Dont think there is any threat to competitors. I enquired with Bord Gais today re getting a quote and was told they dont cover my area (Cavan) and they would not be able to help me. I have sent them an email asking why, but have not a reply yet.


  • #14
    d'Oracle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,025 ✭✭✭d'Oracle


    This is hyperbole, lacking in objective and making massive assumptions based on little information. We didn't need a second thread on it.

    How the HES will be changed has not been settled yet.
    wirehairmax wrote: »
    In the last few days I have learnt that SEAI and Bord Gais have teamed up in a scheme connected to the Home Energy savings scheme. There was a supplement in the Sunday World last Sunday about Green homes or something to that effect.

    You'd think that you would be a bit more specific, how do we know you read it with a neutral and objective mind seeing as last week you were loosing your nut about Bord Gais.
    wirehairmax wrote: »
    Bord Gais had a feature within, in which they proudly proclaim they are in partnership with the SEAI. It seems that they have secured preferential treatment from the SEAI over private contractors. This smacks of anti-competition to me. My key points of objection are:

    Smacks of prejudicial interpretation on your part. SEAI are the authority on sustainable energy practice. Utility suppliers are now required to work with the government to reduce energy

    wirehairmax wrote: »
    1 Bord Gais are now allowed apply on behalf of the home-owner for H.E.S. grants. If a private contractor were to do this they would be subject to diciplinary procedures by the SEAI.e.g. penalty points and/or ultimate removal from the Contractors list.

    I'm going to need proof that Bord Gais will be applying to SEAI for HES grants.
    wirehairmax wrote: »
    This gives Bord Gais an unfair advantage when dealing with the public especially vulnerable and older people who can sometimes be afraid of form-filling. I just wonder will Bord Gais be going door-to-door and cold calling selling this service. Many of you are familiar with the type of salespeople employed by energy and utility companies these days. More often than not,they earn their money on a commission only basis and so are far pushier than many people would like.

    That is something they do as part of their customer supply business. Which is their bread and butter.
    This is not. Its an inconvenience which they are doing in order to fill an obligation. And frankly this is all smoke and mirrors. It would make no business sense to pay people commission to do this. You are just mud slinging here. There is no reason to believe that any this is true.

    wirehairmax wrote: »
    Once they get people signed up there is a pre-payment to be made before any works commences. The terms and conditions are 17 pages long. Imagine a vulnerable O.A.P trying to decipher all that?

    I have spoken to vulnerable OAP's who had serious trouble with contractors who did works on their houses as part of HES. Should Private contractors be put to the sword? OAPs do ok, without your hand wringing. There were always T&C's for HES. Was it a problem for you before this?
    wirehairmax wrote: »
    Bord Gais will also run a credit check on a customer before they will carry out any work. Easy for a one of the largest semi-state companies to do but not so for a contractor

    Yes but private contractors won't be effectively selling credit products. I addressed this in the other thread you started last week.
    wirehairmax wrote: »
    2 Bord Gais allow the payment to be made in monthly installments. Again, the private contractor is at a disadvantage here as what contractor these days can afford to wait 12-24 months for payment. There is also the issue of the Declaration of Works forms. At present this has to be signed and declared that the contract

    I see your point, but at the same time, the homeowner is not paying out of their pockets. More often than not they are using some sort of credit product to pay for their works. And being as nothing in better energy is finalised yet....

    wirehairmax wrote: »
    A false declaration by the contractor is liable to diciplinary procedures as above. Are there different forms for Bord Gais? I couldnt get an answer from the SEAI when I questioned this?

    If you couldn't get an answer then its as likely to not be a problem as be one. Mud slinging again.


    wirehairmax wrote: »
    3 Contractors are not allowed to use SEAI logos on their vehicles, letterheads or marketing material. Also a private contractor cannot declare themselves to be approved/partners of the SEAI. Again diciplinary procedures are in place for any contractors found to contravene this condition. Bord Gais are loud and proud in declaring their association with the SEAI.

    These are not one and the same. Contractors who are registered can be found on SEAI's register. You don't get to use their logo because you are not part of them or associated with them. If you have nothing to hide this should be no competitive advantage.

    wirehairmax wrote: »
    4 BER assessors: Bord Gais are refunding the a further €100 if they undertake the insulation/boiler upgrades. This leaves the BER cert free to the customer so who are the customer going to choose to do the BER?

    This sounds bad. But a contractor can also do this if they so choose.

    wirehairmax wrote: »
    I have phoned the SEAI this morning to query all this and it was all confirmed to me verbally. Of course I got no explaination or reason why this has all taken place. I questioned the fairness and anti-competition aspect of the scheme but was met with silence or glib answers.
    What do other contractors/assessors think of all this?

    You phoned a helpline and expected them to explain all this?
    If you were as level headed and objective as you have been in the TWO crusade threads you have started in here, I would probably be fairly glib with you. I'm pretty sure you weren't on to the CEO.....:rolleyes:


  • #15
    Poor Uncle Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,547 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    d'Oracle wrote: »
    If you were as level headed and objective as you have been in the TWO crusade threads you have started in here, I would probably be fairly glib with you.

    This is the one and only warning, attack the post not the poster, I will ban if it happens again.


  • #16
    cookiemixer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭cookiemixer


    Hi,
    I am looking for the prior version since they are now on 4.0 that was issued in May 2011. Does anyone know where I can find this?
    Thanks


  • #17
    wirehairmax
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 678 ✭✭✭wirehairmax


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0308/plumbing.html

    Not really SEAI related but shows Bord Gais to be overcharging customers when offering payments spread over a period of time. To avail if these payment plans, the public are being charged 45-50% more than if the work was carried out by a private contractor with payment upon completion. It is exploiting peoples lack of available cash to carry out sometimes essential upgrades. And they want it all to themselves.


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