Should state subsidisation of Irish private schools continue?

Openmp · 29-04-2010 09:01AM

Seeing as they're "not really private" what's your problem?

You come across as having a very serious persecution complex.

Personally, I reckon it would be very funny to see your next move in the chess game if funding was withdrawn from private schools and they became even more exculsive.

The State has no business (nor do you for that matter) in what people spend or invest their money in.

You're just jealous that you can't afford to send your children to a private school/can't afford to live beside a decent state one.

Sonnenblumen · 29-04-2010 09:22AM

ejmaztec wrote: »

If they can't survive without public funding, they shouldn't exist.

You could apply that logic to many cases throughout the state and what might be the results?

Anyways, state subsidy to Private schools is no different to many other forms of State subsidy. It is not a question of public v private (or posh v others). The state subsidy is put to good use and the returns for the state are also very good.

Sonnenblumen · 29-04-2010 09:29AM

Dudess wrote: »

I don't think private schools should get a cent from the state - they are not a necessity.

It's also naive in the case of private schools to believe "if you pay extra for it, it'll be better" - not necessarily true at all. First of all, teachers are the same anywhere - there aren't any extra qualifications required to teach in private schools, secondly, there are plenty of state schools with superb facilities.

Most people with experience of these schools would disagree. To say that teachers 'are the same anywhere' is patently untrue. And before you convulse, I'm not saying that the teachers in Private schools are always better than public equivalents. But the private teaching environment is more likely better and free of constraints often found in public schools. On average better facilities, better resourced facilities and probably more applied kids more willing to be there and learn etc results in a better education.

On performance, I think you will find that the case is much clearer than you think.

Sonnenblumen · 29-04-2010 09:40AM

Ollchailin wrote: »

Lads, I teach in a private school & this business of it providing a better learning environment & a better standard of education & whatever other reasons people feel they are superior to public schools is nothing only complete B.S. Money does not a good school make.

If a school is run well by it's management then regardless of whether it is private or public, it will be a good school. If the students are receiving support & encouragement (& the odd bit of giving out) from their parents, the school will have good students. Therefore you will have a good school with good students (and by good students I mean mannerly, co-operative & willing to learn- I'm not talking about 600 points students). Money doesn't even enter the equation. Sure, there are private schools like this, but there are also public schools like this.

You can have bad management and parents who don't care in a private school. People paying money to send their children to school does not amount to caring necessarily, it may just be convenient, or a way of making connections, or alternatively a status thing. I'd like to think for the most part though they are sent to a private school because the parents believe it is genuinely the best education they can get. I would say to parents who are considering sending their child to a private school to be aware of that.

On a slightly separate note: Boarding school. Don't get it, never will. As far as I can see, the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages. I can see why some people might go the private route alright (although it's not something I would consider for my children) but as for boarding, I think in this day and age, children should be raised by their families & not by some stranger in a dorm.

Some strange sentiments coming from a 'teacher'. On the subject of performance, do you think the state should be paying teachers for non performance of duties? Why do teachers not provide more support to assist state in removing 'unsuitable' teachers? As probably the most privileged group within the C&PS group, how can teachers justify the extraordinary generous pay+leave entitlements?

Until the state manages to regain more control of pay bargaining, the process of developing or achieving 'well run schools' will be armlocked by militant teacher interests.

Snickers Man · 29-04-2010 01:09PM

Ollchailin wrote: »

If a school is run well by it's management then regardless of whether it is private or public, it will be a good school.
If the students are receiving support & encouragement (& the odd bit of giving out) from their parents, the school will have good students. Therefore you will have a good school with good students (and by good students I mean mannerly, co-operative & willing to learn- I'm not talking about 600 points students).
Money doesn't even enter the equation.

True, True and True again.

Now please answer the point I raised: how does one gain access to these "good" non-fee paying schools which I happily concede exist?

One joins a long waiting list and if one's child is not on that list from a VERY young age, one can forget about it. Unless of course there are other ways of gaining influence. Like being a member of the same golf club as the school principal, or having the ear of the local TD, or buttering up political connections. i'm not alleging that any of this happens, but you'd be terribly naive to think that it doesn't. Especially in cases where there are pretty stark alternatives to one "good" free-of-charge school.

Imhof Tank · 29-04-2010 01:31PM

Some would say the fee paying system subsidies the non fee paying sector.

If the state stopped paying the salaries of teachers in private schools in the morning wouldnt that lead to massive fee increases and within a short time, the closure of many private schools due to lack of numbers willing to pay the new, higher fees?

Wouldnt you then see a huge proportion of the 26000 fee paying school attendees going over to the non fee paying sector, the non fee paying schools would then hire the same teachers who used to teach in the fee paying school for the same money and its a zero sum gain in terms of the public purse.

Apart of course from the fact that the state would then have to throw up prefabs to accommodate the former fee paying pupils. What would that cost the state?

Dionysus · 23-04-2011 09:13PM

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

A very relevant article appeared in The Irish Times today:

Fee-paying schools engaged in 'apartheid'

SEÁN FLYNN, Education Editor

THE TEACHERS’ Union of Ireland (TUI) is to press for the withdrawal of State funding from fee-paying schools engaged in what it calls “educational apartheid’’.

In a move that will intensify pressure on Minister for Education Ruairí Quinn on the issue, the union is to demand an audit of admission policies at its annual conference next week. The last such audit in 2005 excluded the 56 fee-paying schools in the State.

The TUI says the new audit is necessary amid claims that some fee-paying schools are engaged in “apartheid’’ by excluding migrant children, Travellers and those with special learning needs.

Department of Education figures have consistently shown that provision for special needs and other minority pupils is largely concentrated in State schools and poorer areas. Some fee-paying schools have almost no provision for minority students.

The TUI move comes after Labour leader Eamon Gilmore signalled his unease about the increasingly “two-tier’’ nature of Irish education during the recent election campaign. Any move however to abolish State support for fee-paying schools would be resisted by Fine Gael Ministers.

TUI general secretary Peter MacMenamin said last night that the anger of teachers over the issue was growing. “Many of our members feel that certain schools are doing everything in their power to discourage those with special educational need, in blatant violation of equality and education legislation.” This, he said, was being facilitated by the department’s “inaction” on the issue.

Next week’s conference will hear motions demanding the abolition of what delegates label the €100 million “State funding of privilege” funded by the taxpayer. The leadership backs the phased withdrawal of funding from those schools guilty of discrimination.

Catholic groups are also increaing pressure on fee-paying schools to be more inclusive.

In a position paper on school patronage, the Catholic Schools Partnership, an umbrella group providing support for all partners in the Republic’s Catholic schools, said: “Catholic fee-paying schools must make serious efforts to reach out to socially deprived communities, to pupils with special needs and to foster an ever deeper sense of social awareness . . . Otherwise, they risk becoming a sign that is contradictory in terms of Christ’s mission.”

Ireland is one of the few countries where the State pays the salaries of teachers in private schools. This allows fee-paying schools to use fee income to boost its range of school services and facilities.

The department’s figures show that fee-paying schools received more than €100 million in support from the taxpayer last year.

Dublin’s Blackrock College received €4.2 million to cover the cost of 58 teacher salaries. St Andrew’s College, received €3.6 million to cover annual salaries for 52 teachers.

The 2009 McCarthy report on public service estimated that fee-paying schools generated about €100 million in annual fee income from parents. This income is over and above that generated by fees averaging over €5,000 a year for day pupils and up to €16,000 a year for boarders.

Source: Fee-paying schools engaged in 'apartheid'

Lauder · 23-04-2011 09:33PM

If the state subsidy towards private schools is removed - parents who chose to send their children to be privately educated will be double-taxed.

The most equatable solution would be to remove the state subsidy for private schools and then to allow schools fees to be then totally tax deductible to parents who chose to send their children to be privately educated. Otherwise, removal of this subsidy would be grossly unfair.

jahalpin · 23-04-2011 10:41PM

The state has a responsibility to pay for the education of all its citizens. The state pays for the salaries of all full-time permanent primary and secondary teachers in the state as they are employees of the Dept. of Education. Teacher numbers are based on numbers of pupils in the school. The number of pupils per FT-equivalent funded teaching post is lower in state schools than in provate schools.

All schools recieve a grant towards the cost of running the schools based on the number of pupils. The private schools actually recieve less from the state than the wholy state funded schools. Therefore the state is not "subsidising" the private schools, but rather, under the current system, the private schools are actually saving the state money.

The private schools use the fees recieved to make up for the short-fall of state funding and to provide better facilities for their students

Mixed bag · 08-10-2012 08:50PM

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

i sent my children to private schools as we are Protestant. On reflection, I have some thoughts
1 the education was not as good as what I myself experienced in a northern Ireland grammar school. Poor work ethic. Lack of academic integrity. A lot of snobbery
2 catholic pupils at the fee paying secondary schools were from very high income brackets , and not the lower socio economic classes. They sometimes received preferential treatment from teachers because of their status
3 Protestant schools in the 1990 s raised their fees and a lot of Protestants could no longer send their children to the fee paying schools. They seemed to want catholic pupils to promote pluralism, or for financial gain? South Dublin Protestant schools guilty of this. Places like Kilkenny college and wilsons hospital more true to their own communities.
4 Protestant parents sometimes realised their children would receive a better education in the local catholic schools..it has been my observation that those children did much better in life
5 I don't know what a Protestant ethos in a southern Irish school is meant to be...prejudice against non conformists, minority Protestant groups , such as the evangelical groups or home churches is very apparent.
6

philologos · 08-10-2012 11:38PM

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

Mixed bag wrote: »

5 I don't know what a Protestant ethos in a southern Irish school is meant to be...prejudice against non conformists, minority Protestant groups , such as the evangelical groups or home churches is very apparent.
6

What's Protestantism meant to be about? Heck what's Christianity meant to be about. Jesus Christ, what He taught how He lived, and how He came to rescue us from sin. Unfortunately, you don't see a lot of schools standing up for it.

On the other hand, I don't know what prejudice you're talking about. I went to a private Protestant faith school in Dublin. I never saw any prejudice to non-conformists or evangelicals. Indeed, there were a few evangelical Christians in my year, some of them got me curious about it as a teenager.

B.A._Baracus · 08-10-2012 11:51PM

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

On one hand you have a public school that gets funding from the government - every child deserves an education. So by funding public schools the government is allowing all children to learn. Working class, middle class, upper class etc. A very good thing.

On the other hand you have a private school, which charges parents a yearly fee for their child to learn in this school. Is that not a business tho?

Should state subsidisation of Irish private schools continue?

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