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Burka ban

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Comments

  • #1232
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    Morbert wrote: »
    Your post is incoherent rhetoric. If you are not more specific and cogent, I cannot respond.
    I Knew you would say that. You can't answer?
    Here is answer?
    Hijab doesn't scarify women in the name of God. But it protects women to being scarified in the hands of evil men, evil culture, evil customs and evil rituals.

    Women are very carefully brainwashed in the name of culture.The propagandists used all the time-tested techniques. She is offered the opportunity to become the sales girl and the model girl, so that trade may flourish. Today all menial jobs have been awarded to women. The same woman is now a showpiece in commercial institutions. She is now an object of entertainment for men.

    Isn't it scarifying women??. I know you don't have any answer. ;)


  • #1233
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    dead one wrote: »
    She is now an object of entertainment for men.
    Sounds like men are the problem to me -- why not make them walk around with bags over their heads?

    Now, if only there were some political system out there which tried to make sure that women and men have access to equal economic opportunities, rather than entrenching divisions and subjugation!


  • #1234
    cavedave
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,164 ✭✭✭cavedave


    I'm religious and support the ban
    pH

    I find this anecdote unconvincing, it amazes me you have this much intimate knowledge of a Muslim couple, especially one devout enough for her to be wearing a burka. How much time did you spend alone with her to check if what her husband was saying was true?

    None my wife was alone with her when she said she wanted to wear the outfit.

    m6s6aicjogoampxnh1a9dzzq7k4g1nn$tau1s8bnvadr4z7fouvpxmb75ppg3nn

    The full walking tent was not part of Irish culture but modest dressing as many muslims do today was. In some cases full masks are part of Irish culture on special feast days

    dreoil07.jpg

    The beekeeping example is a fairly stupid one. It is not exactly everyday you see someone walking down a street in one.


  • #1235
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Seems like a good time to post one of my favourite t-shirts:

    http://www.cafepress.co.uk/jmoshop.110593258

    I feel privileged that, as a man, I am capable of not sexually assaulting or raping every woman I meet, irrespective of what she is wearing. What is it about some muslim men that they apparently can't?

    MrP


  • #1236
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    MrPudding wrote: »
    What is it about some muslim men that they apparently can't?
    It's not so much men who hold islamic religious beliefs, though they are amongst the last self-identifying groups that pretend they can't.

    On the contrary, I believe that the whole burka nonsense is a cultural device to hide women from view by men so that men can't see women, so that they don't feel the urge to indulge in the kind of brutal sex-related violence (principally men killing men, in order to acquire women) that is appallingly commonplace in the kind of primitive, tribe and band-level societies that most of the world has moved on from.

    This last-resort "protection" has no place in societies which (a) do not allow men to treat women as commodities which can be stolen (b) guarantee the men and women the same rights and (c) implement an effective and trusted justice system.


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  • #1237
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    robindch wrote: »
    Sounds like men are the problem to me
    Can you change the nature of a man?
    robindch wrote: »
    -- why not make them walk around with bags over their heads?
    They will come again after walking around.
    robindch wrote: »
    Now, if only there were some political system out there which tried to make sure that women and men have access to equal economic opportunities,
    A women can avail those opportunities with hijab. Hijab isn't restriction. It protects women from lustful nature of man.
    robindch wrote: »
    rather than entrenching divisions and subjugation!
    I guess it shows that you have some self-restraint. How many can control themselves. It is impossible for legislation to capture the sex habits of young people.

    JUST See women who were scarified in the name of culture. This show hijab and family system is necessary. Only a perfect family system and law can finish these crimes. Man made laws can't?

    raperecordrate.jpg

    http://www.civitas.org.uk/crime/crimestats6.php


  • #1238
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    robindch wrote: »

    On the contrary, I believe that the whole burka nonsense is a cultural device

    Yes i agree this type of dress is cultural. But covering of women is mentioned in Quran?

    burka1c.jpg

    It is used in afghanistan and tribal area of Pakistan. it has nothing to do with Islam.


  • #1239
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    dead one wrote: »
    Can you change the nature of a man?

    They will come again after walking around.

    A women can avail those opportunities with hijab. Hijab isn't restriction. It protects women from lustful nature of man.

    I guess it shows that you have some self-restraint. How many can control themselves. It is impossible for legislation to capture the sex habits of young people.

    JUST See women who were scarified in the name of culture. This show hijab and family system is necessary. Only a perfect family system and law can finish these crimes. Man made laws can't?

    raperecordrate.jpg

    http://www.civitas.org.uk/crime/crimestats6.php


    Look at the country with the lowest rate of rape on the graph. Japan. One of the most secular countries in the world. There are only 115,000 muslims in Japan out of a population of 128m. And you think that hijab is necessary to prevent rape?:confused::confused:

    Also since there are no predominantly muslim countries on the graph how do you presume to draw the conclusion that hijab lowers rape rates??


  • #1240
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    dead one wrote: »
    It protects women from lustful nature of man.
    As I said before, the problem seems to be with men -- why not wrap their heads in bags, or put some kind of metal locking thing on their penises to stop them getting erections or do something to limit their enjoyment of sex? Or is that what circumcision is really for?


  • #1241
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    Also since there are no predominantly muslim countries on the graph how do you presume to draw the conclusion that hijab lowers rape rates??
    Exactly.


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  • #1242
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Graph looked to me like it could have been measuring per-capita beer consumption.


  • #1243
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Dades wrote: »
    Exactly.


    ....and of course theres the whole cultural issue of rape not being reported in more conservative societies....


  • #1244
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    Ok I'm edging closer to this subject with my 40 foot barge pole... Before I gonna any further I'm posting as an atheist in atheist forum (I will not be watering down my belief and am not going to get into a religious debate).

    Currently I'm leaning ever so slightly against the ban if we're ignoring the security claims.

    Are these women oppressed? Yes. Some by threats of violence others through brainwashing. Should this be stopped? In my utopian world yes but unfortunately not everyone shares my world view.
    There are old folks down the road from me who have missed out on some fun things in life by following the Catholic churches rules, there are Amish kids growing up who might never learn the facts I learn from the internet (or again get to enjoy the porn I enjoy).
    The ultimate compromise society appears to have agreed upon is freedom of and from religion. Therefore, there is some merit behind the supported goal of the ban which is to free women who are forced into such beliefs (and by force I mean physical) but it tramples on the rights of those that are brainwashed into such beliefs and unless we ban religion completely then that's strangely unfair! You can't tell one woman she can't wear it if she want's because she has (and she has) been brainwashed into believing it and tell another you respect her choice not to receive a blood transfusion because of her brand of brainwashing (forcing that belief on a child is different).

    Ultimately, sadly, it is up to these women to break free of their brainwashing by themselves at which point we should do everything under the sun to protect them. Unless we can come up with a better yet still fair society.


  • #1245
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,827 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Scotty # wrote: »
    So what? So is the kilt but no one is looking to have that banned.

    Because the kilt doesn't represent an oppressive culture, the burka does.
    Scotty # wrote: »
    How is the Islam culture any more dangerous than any other culture? Just because a handful of extremist commit crimes in the name of Islam does not make the whole lot loons.

    The extremist culture that the burka comes from is dangerous because of the oppressive sexism and violently authoritative nature of it.
    Scotty # wrote: »
    Clearly not all burka wearers feel that way. Many burka wearers are actually women who have converted to Islam and have freely chosen to live by it's customs. This right has now been taken from them - this is the part I find so unfair.

    They are not the first people to enter an abusive relationship and accept the abuse as necessary ro deserving, just read up on the symptoms of battered person syndrome:
    this is a reference to any person who, because of constant and severe domestic violence usually involving physical abuse by a partner, becomes depressed and unable to take any independent action that would allow him or her to escape the abuse. The condition explains why abused people often do not seek assistance from others, fight their abuser, or leave the abusive situation. Sufferers have low self-esteem, and often believe that the abuse is their fault. Such persons usually refuse to press criminal charges against their abuser, and refuse all offers of help, often becoming aggressive or abusive to others who attempt to offer assistance.
    Just change the physical abuse to mental abuse (indoctrination of telling a woman that she is uncontrollably tempting men but its her fault, hence she needs to cover up) and you have the same situation with women defending the burka (you dont even need to remove the physical abuse, the culture of the burka also allows for men to beat their wives)


  • #1246
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,827 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    liamw wrote: »
    To those that are against the ban, why would women freely choose to wear something whose purpose is to subjugate them?

    (I'm not taking sides, still on the fence)

    Indoctrination.


  • #1247
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,827 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    ShooterSF wrote: »
    Therefore, there is some merit behind the supported goal of the ban which is to free women who are forced into such beliefs (and by force I mean physical) but it tramples on the rights of those that are brainwashed into such beliefs and unless we ban religion completely then that's strangely unfair!

    This raises an interesting point. Is the right to do something effected by whether or not you where brainwashed into doing it? I think the pro-ban people would say yes, while the anti ban people say no.
    ShooterSF wrote: »
    You can't tell one woman she can't wear it if she want's because she has (and she has) been brainwashed into believing it and tell another you respect her choice not to receive a blood transfusion because of her brand of brainwashing (forcing that belief on a child is different).

    Why not? I may respect someones right to go to church because their religion says to but I dont have to respect their belief that they can beat their wife because their religion says they can (even if their wife accepts it). Why aren't we allowed to decide that some aspects of some cultures or religion are just too backward or damaging?
    ShooterSF wrote: »
    Ultimately, sadly, it is up to these women to break free of their brainwashing by themselves at which point we should do everything under the sun to protect them. Unless we can come up with a better yet still fair society.

    How can they break out of their brainwashing if they dont even realise that they are brain washed? If they are brain washed to believe that anyone telling them they are brainwashed has some evil agenda?


  • #1248
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    This thread has lost all logical discussion.


  • #1249
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,308 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Scotty # wrote: »
    This thread has lost all logical discussion.
    Why? Because you can no longer defend your view, or that your view has been shown as wrong?


  • #1250
    FoxT
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,204 ✭✭✭FoxT


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    I am in favour of a ban on people covering their faces in situations where they are interacting with other members of the public - eg schools, shopping, attending public meetings/concerts etc.
    This includes crash helmets, balaclavas, monkey suits, burkas, etc.

    If you want to wear it while you are at home, driving your car, mowing the lawn, etc., that is fine, I think.

    In Western culture, covering your face is seen as either a threat, or a rejection. People from other cultures who choose to live here should be permitted to practice their own cultures if they wish, but only up to the point of it not being disruptive to the existing culture.
    If I decided to move to a muslim country, I would expect to learn the language, and also to avoid practices that are illegal or socially unacceptable (alcohol comes to mind).

    The ban is unfortunate but necessary - Western societies, which are generally tolerant, need to protect themselves from fundamentalism of all flavours, otherwise that very tolerance will be at risk.


  • #1251
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    This raises an interesting point. Is the right to do something effected by whether or not you where brainwashed into doing it? I think the pro-ban people would say yes, while the anti ban people say no.
    I'd like to say yes too but what you and I call brainwashing others call faith or Ipad ownership :D Unfortunately I think the only way is to try and convince them otherwise. Not that I think that would be easy.
    Why not? I may respect someones right to go to church because their religion says to but I dont have to respect their belief that they can beat their wife because their religion says they can (even if their wife accepts it). Why aren't we allowed to decide that some aspects of some cultures or religion are just too backward or damaging?

    Abuse is abuse and is against the law as it should be. I have said I have an issue with the use of violence to force belief and I would extend that to if the wife "accepted" it. Where do you stand on forcing an adult Jehovah to take a blood transfusion (this is the area I'm personally uncertain on) as this is a similar gray area for me in comparison to those that aren't physically forced to wear the burka ?
    How can they break out of their brainwashing if they dont even realise that they are brain washed? If they are brain washed to believe that anyone telling them they are brainwashed has some evil agenda?

    I wish I knew the answer but giving their oppressors another stick to beat us with in the "us against them" evil agenda they propagate is not going to help is it?

    EDIT - The reason I never voted on this btw is that I'm not comfortable with either side...


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  • #1252
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    the_syco wrote: »
    Why? Because you can no longer defend your view, or that your view has been shown as wrong?
    My view is that citizens of a state should be allowed to freely choose what clothing they wear. Yourself and the pro-ban camp obviously disagree with this view and believe the state knows better and thus should decide what you do and don't wear.

    Even most of the pro-ban camp will agree that this law now places the women who are forced to wear the burka into further oppression by now confining them to their homes. This law is of no benefit to anyone. Unless of course you are just looking for a way to get rid of signs of Islam from your streets. This it achieves very well indeed.


  • #1253
    FoxT
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,204 ✭✭✭FoxT


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Scotty # wrote: »
    My view is that citizens of a state should be allowed to freely choose what clothing they wear. Yourself and the pro-ban camp obviously disagree with this view and believe the state knows better and thus should decide what you do and don't wear.

    Even most of the pro-ban camp will agree that this law now places the women who are forced to wear the burka into further oppression by now confining them to their homes. This law is of no benefit to anyone. Unless of course you are just looking for a way to get rid of signs of Islam from your streets. This it achieves very well indeed.

    I agree with you that citizens should be allowed to choose what they wear. However, every society has norms, which, whilst not legislated for, are nevertheless accepted pretty universally. I have never seen a naked person shopping in Tescos for example. To me the Burka offends the norm in a similar way to nudity. In our society, inappropriate public nudity is disrespectful to others, as is the Burka.


  • #1254
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Public nudity, in fairness, is a different kettle of fish. The laws governing it are in relation to lewd conduct and sex offences. I don't know if simple nudity is actually an offence in Ireland? Didn't seem to be a problem for Spencer Tunik when he was taking his photo's in Stephens Green and the docklands. It's certainly becoming more common on TV.

    Just because a portion, even the majority, of the population finds something offensive/inappropriate doesn't mean it should be banned. I'm sure we all have things we'd like to see banned or think should be banned but are not.

    I'm sure the vast majority of Americans do not support the KKK. But they do support the right to free speech. KKK rallies down their street is the price they pay for that right.

    I don't support husbands forcing their wives to wear a burka. But I do support MY RIGHT to dress as I wish!


  • #1255
    pH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    Scotty # wrote: »

    Just because a portion, even the majority, of the population finds something offensive/inappropriate doesn't mean it should be banned. I'm sure we all have things we'd like to see banned or think should be banned but are not.

    Well exactly - if such a society existed, then the burka ban would be indefensible - if every law that bans us from doing things "for our own good" - that don't directly harm others - was repealed tomorrow (and in many ways I'd be in favour of that) then the burka ban would be pure oppression.

    However we don't live in that society - and neither do the French, none of us are entirely free to take drugs, use prostitutes, walk around naked, produce pornography (well ok in France), own firearms etc.

    Now you may well argue that adding another thing to that list is wrong, however I'm coming from it from the perspective that we (and the French) already live in a society which curtails a number of personal freedoms, "for our own good", and if we've got a list of these already then I don't see a major problem with adding "Don't wear a burka" to this list.


  • #1256
    valm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 62 ✭✭valm


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    I don't believe the burka is really the issue, forget the culture,religion,rights. Is it OK to walk into a bank wearing a balaclava? If you can cover your face with a burka why not cover your face with a balaclava? I went through Heathrow Airport recently, I had my photo taken at security area 1 and before I boarded the plane I was checked to make sure I was the same person photographed at area 1 with all corresponding documents. I have no problem with this it is for my own safety. If my face had been concealed with a burka or balaclava the security arrangements would have been inane.I wonder can you wear a burka under these circumstances? If you need to remove it to travel it is not that important afterall.


  • #1257
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    I'm religious and support the ban
    valm wrote: »
    I don't believe the burka is really the issue, forget the culture,religion,rights. Is it OK to walk into a bank wearing a balaclava? If you can cover your face with a burka why not cover your face with a balaclava? I went through Heathrow Airport recently, I had my photo taken at security area 1 and before I boarded the plane I was checked to make sure I was the same person photographed at area 1 with all corresponding documents. I have no problem with this it is for my own safety. If my face had been concealed with a burka or balaclava the security arrangements would have been inane.I wonder can you wear a burka under these circumstances? If you need to remove it to travel it is not that important afterall.

    I'm going to be a wild crazy gambler and guess that this has been dealt with at some stage during the previous 80 pages.

    5 to 1. Place your bets.


  • #1258
    bmarley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 356 ✭✭bmarley


    Discrimination of women in all forms, in our (educated) societies should never, ever be tolerated.


  • #1259
    aidan24326
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    I'm religious and support the ban
    I'm in two minds about this. Part of me hates the islamic religion and their oppression of women (amongst other things), and would be happy to ban all islamic traditions from our society.

    Then again I do think that people should be free to express themselves how they wish, and if a muslim woman wants to wear her burkha, and it's important to her, then what business is it of mine? Not much business really.


  • #1260
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    I'm religious and support the ban
    aidan24326 wrote: »
    I'm in two minds about this. Part of me hates the islamic religion and their oppression of women (amongst other things), and would be happy to ban all islamic traditions from our society.

    Then again I do think that people should be free to express themselves how they wish, and if a muslim woman wants to wear her burkha, and it's important to her, then what business is it of mine? Not much business really.

    This is the thing...

    Part of me hates religion and paedophilia and would be happy to ban it from our society.

    Then again if a Squablim 10 year old child wants to have sex, and it's important to her, then what business is it of mine? Not much business really.

    Then again if a Squablim women wants to be punched in the face every day at noon, and it's important to her, then what business is it of mine? Not much business really.

    Then again if a Squablim women wants to have her hands tied behind her back, and it's important to her, then what business is it of mine? Not much business really.

    Then again if a Squablim man wants hide his finger nails with glued on bits of wood and it's important to him, then what business is it of mine? Not much business really.

    Then again if a Musli.....sorry Squablim, boy wants to have his hair shaved off and glued to his forehead...


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  • #1261
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    pH wrote: »
    none of us are entirely free to take drugs, use prostitutes, walk around naked, produce pornography (well ok in France), own firearms, choose our own clothing...
    Yea I see what you mean now, sure it fits perfectly in with those other criminal acts. How on earth did we get away with this for so long? :rolleyes:


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