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Burka ban

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Comments

  • #1202
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    zenno wrote: »
    It doesn't matter the case being said and talked about in european governments at the moment about this issue will come into effect
    It's already in. Since Monday.
    zenno wrote: »
    the government of ireland will decide this and i'm sure it will happen
    Both the Irish and UK government have said they have no intention of introducing it.
    zenno wrote: »
    as I said they will have to respect our laws.
    Upto 1 in 10 in France are Muslim. It's the second largest religion. They are their laws too or can you not be French AND Muslim?


  • #1203
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Scotty # wrote: »
    It's already in. Since Monday. Both the Irish and UK government have said they have no intention of introducing it. Upto 1 in 10 in France are Muslim. It's the second largest religion. They are their laws too or can you not be French AND Muslim?

    man you are not getting it at all...I know the law is in in france. I am talking about when it comes in, in ireland. "as you say that the irish government has no intention of introducing it here" well as usual can you beleive any of our governments early responses to anything ?.

    It is like any other law from a european country controller that it will eventually happen here in ireland I can assure you of that.


  • #1204
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Moomoo1 wrote: »
    So why focus attention on banning the burqa, a measure that will benefit a small subset of a small number of burqa wearers in France and not on domestic violence in general? Smacks of hypocricy, as I've said.
    Smacks of not quite knowing what you're talking about :)

    The law also introduces a maximum fine of, AFAIR, around €40,000 for men who are convicted of forcing women who wear the burka.

    Though I'm sure that many people will find it intolerably offensive that the state is limiting a man's freedom to oppress his missus! Issa political correctness gone mad!


  • #1205
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    robindch wrote: »
    Yes, that's one of the reasons. There are others, but you've engaged with none of them and instead simply repeat your claim that passing a law that allows women to wear anything save the burka is as oppressive as forcing them to wear it
    Sorry Robin I missed this post. What are the other positive "non oppression related" reasons for the ban?


  • #1206
    pH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    Scotty # wrote: »
    Sorry Robin I missed this post. What are the other positive "non oppression related" reasons for the ban?

    Well for one the idea of going around masked in public. Even if you accept that's OK, most will then draw the line at some point - and at that stage we're still 'discriminating' against women in burkas.

    So if you're happy with women wearing burkas in general, what about if one want to join the Gardai? Is that OK or are we going to oppress these women at this point? What about a doctor at a public hospital, is she or he entitled to treat the public in a mask?

    What about employers in general? Can they discriminate against a burka wearing woman as a receptionist?


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  • #1207
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    pH wrote: »
    Well for one the idea of going around masked in public.
    People do this all the time. Sunglasses, scarves of over the nose, hoodies, helmets, etc. Not being able to see some ones face is not unusual at all. You are really going to have to come up with better reasons than this to justify the ban.
    pH wrote: »
    So if you're happy with women wearing burkas in general, what about if one want to join the Gardai? Is that OK or are we going to oppress these women at this point? What about a doctor at a public hospital, is she or he entitled to treat the public in a mask?

    What about employers in general? Can they discriminate against a burka wearing woman as a receptionist?
    The debate is specifically about the right to dress as you wish in public. On your own time in yur own community. What rights your employer has over you is a totally different debate.


  • #1208
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Scotty # wrote: »
    What are the other positive "non oppression related" reasons for the ban?
    The idea that you're drawing a line in the sand with respect to (a) the ability of men to control women (b) religious nutters who instruct men to oppress women (c) religious nutters who stockholm-syndrome women into thinking that walking around in a sack is a good thing and (d) most importantly, that the state is prepared to take a stand against a self-declared, self-aggrandizing, divisive, supremacist religious authority which, in this case, uses the natural freedom to wear what one likes to cloak its unpleasant but typical tendency to absolute authoritarianism and absolute conformity.


  • #1209
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    robindch wrote: »
    The idea that you're drawing a line in the sand with respect to (a) the ability of men to control women (b) religious nutters who instruct men to oppress women (c) religious nutters who stockholm-syndrome women into thinking that walking around in a sack is a good thing and (d) most importantly, that the state is prepared to take a stand against a self-declared, self-aggrandizing, divisive, supremacist religious authority which, in this case, uses the natural freedom to wear what one likes to cloak its unpleasant but typical tendency to absolute authoritarianism and absolute conformity.
    Sorry, you said you had good reasons that were not to do with oppression. What are they?


  • #1210
    Morbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Scotty, do you think it should be legal to convince women (by implanting ideas during their childhood) to sacrifice themselves to God?


  • #1211
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Scotty # wrote: »
    Sorry, you said you had good reasons that were not to do with oppression. What are they?
    Can't say I've ever met anybody -- on this forum or elsewhere, believer or not -- who was so grandly unaware of the political power of religion :rolleyes:


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  • #1212
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    Morbert wrote: »
    Scotty, do you think it should be legal to convince women (by implanting ideas during their childhood) to sacrifice themselves to God?

    The main reason is culture. Culture has enslaved its own people and sold its own flesh and blood. Any good culture can bring freedom to people.
    Now answer my question.
    Do you think it is fair to scarify women on altar of culture? See how women are being scarified in the name of civilization/culture. I don't have to mention it. You can see it in films, in videos, commercials. Is it Justice. They are being advertise in the name of money.


  • #1213
    celtictiger32
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,488 ✭✭✭celtictiger32


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    just wondering btw, the fine was mentioned for somebody forcing a woman into wearing the burka. any ideas how that would be policed, surely the woman would be terrified to admit her husband forced her to wear it?


  • #1214
    Hobbes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Hobbes


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Haven't read the whole thread but the whole law is stupid and reeks of racism.

    It boils down to this. If the woman is wearing by her choice then there is nothing wrong with this and this law is stupid.

    If they are being forced to wear it by their husband, then introducing this law isn't going to magically make them stop wearing it. Instead they are more likely going to be forced into staying at home and not leaving. So you are making things worse for them.

    Lastly the law targets religious headgear, but there is nothing to stop them wearing a medical mask. So it is just racism/xenophopia imho.


  • #1215
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,361 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    dead one wrote: »

    Do you think it is fair to scarify women on altar of culture? See how women are being scarified in the name of civilization/culture. I don't have to mention it. You can see it in films, in videos, commercials. Is it Justice. They are being advertise in the name of money.

    Why only single out women in that comment?
    In case you haven't noticed, men are also seen in films, videos, commercials....


  • #1216
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Hobbes wrote: »
    Haven't read the whole thread [...] it is just racism/xenophopia imho.
    Well, perhaps you wouldn't see it that rather unpleasant way if you if you took the time to understand the other point of view?


  • #1217
    Morbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    dead one wrote: »

    The main reason is culture. Culture has enslaved its own people and sold its own flesh and blood. Any good culture can bring freedom to people.
    Now answer my question.
    Do you think it is fair to scarify women on altar of culture? See how women are being scarified in the name of civilization/culture. I don't have to mention it. You can see it in films, in videos, commercials. Is it Justice. They are being advertise in the name of money.

    Your post is incoherent rhetoric. If you are not more specific and cogent, I cannot respond.


  • #1218
    Morbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Hobbes wrote: »
    So it is just racism/xenophopia imho.

    This has been addressed (a few times) already.

    I feel like I'm arguing with creationists.


  • #1219
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    robindch wrote: »
    Can't say I've ever met anybody -- on this forum or elsewhere, believer or not -- who was so grandly unaware of the political power of religion :rolleyes:
    I'm not a believer. Not that it makes a difference. I simply have a problem with the government (or religion for that matter) telling people how they can or can't dress. Regardless of race, religion, or culture - as long as it's not harming anyone else. It's that simple.

    You said earlier when talking about oppression being the excuse behind the ban...
    There are others, but you've engaged with none of them
    I've asked you twice now to point out these other reasons but you haven't offered any. You've tried relentlessly to justify the ban throughout this thread and you've failed. The truth is there are no others. The ban is unjustifiable. It helps NOBODY and it serves NO PURPOSE, other than to remove the visible signs of Islam from the streets, it's REAL purpose after all.

    What on earth gives you the right or anyone the right, to tell people what they can and can't wear as long as they are not harming anyone? (I don't actually want an answer to that - no doubt you'll come up with some kind of logic where it's not OK for Islam to tell people how to dress but it is OK for their government.)


  • #1220
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Scotty # wrote: »
    I simply have a problem with the government (or religion for that matter) telling people how they can or can't dress.
    You have a problem with religions telling people how to dress, yet you're enthusiastically against the burka ban? :confused:
    Scotty # wrote: »
    I've asked you twice now to point out these other reasons but you haven't offered any.
    I've listed four reasons earlier today, however you don't seem to have noticed or understood them for whatever reason.

    I'm with Morbert here -- this is like debating with creationists and I'm throwing in the towel on this strand.

    Cheers.


  • #1221
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    robindch wrote: »
    You have a problem with religions telling people how to dress,
    Yes, and governments. It's not really that hard to understand.
    robindch wrote: »
    I've listed four reasons earlier today...

    (a) the ability of men to control women - ie. Oppression
    (b) religious nutters who instruct men to oppress women - err Oppression...
    (c) religious nutters who stockholm-syndrome women into thinking that walking around in a sack is a good thing - Oppression anyone?
    (d) most importantly, that the state is prepared to take a stand against a self-declared, self-aggrandizing, divisive, supremacist religious authority - ahhhaaa we're getting closer to the truth here at last!

    So it's "taking a stand" against Islam! What do you think the next step should be? and the one after that?


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  • #1222
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,827 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Moomoo1 wrote: »
    I think I debated with him last summer, long enough for him to admit that the real reason behind his opinions is a belief that 'OMG those muslims will come here and change our way of life!!!' and there is a 'culture' out there that is about to 'infringe' on ours and 'dominate' ours.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67138642&postcount=768
    (quote near the top)

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67158498&postcount=780 (quote near the bottom)

    I spent ages on that debate, won't be making that mistake again. But it just shows that most people who pretend they are doing this out of concern of women being abused have as their real reason a phobia of Islam.

    What a disingenuous appraisal of our previous discussion but good to see that you haven't overcome your own racial issues. I have no more problem with islam than christianity, I'm still going out with the same muslim girl I was last year. I do however hate extremist and oppressive cultures that subjugate their people under the pretence of religious (or any made up) authority. Of course, besides that, the burka isn't even islamic, its cultural, but its a culture that I deem to be incredible damaging, hence I oppose it.


  • #1223
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,827 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Hobbes wrote: »
    Haven't read the whole thread but the whole law is stupid and reeks of racism.

    It boils down to this. If the woman is wearing by her choice then there is nothing wrong with this and this law is stupid.

    You dont think the entire notion of the burka is wrong? Its an insane solution to a problem that doesn't seem to exist outside of the countries which say your have to wear the burka. Its as oppressive a garment as medieval chastity belts and allowing propagates the oppressive culture that requires it to subjugate its women.
    Hobbes wrote: »
    If they are being forced to wear it by their husband, then introducing this law isn't going to magically make them stop wearing it. Instead they are more likely going to be forced into staying at home and not leaving. So you are making things worse for them.

    Eventually the women will need to leave the house, the man isn't going to be able to work, take care of kids and shop by himself.
    Hobbes wrote: »
    Lastly the law targets religious headgear, but there is nothing to stop them wearing a medical mask. So it is just racism/xenophopia imho.

    The law stops them wearing a medical mask, unless they have good reason too. Honestly, did you read the law? All facial coverings in public are banned, bar health and safety equipment and party masks.


  • #1224
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,827 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Scotty # wrote: »
    I'm not a believer. Not that it makes a difference. I simply have a problem with the government (or religion for that matter) telling people how they can or can't dress.

    Isn't the burka itself an item of clothing that people wear because their culture tells them too (culture being a mix of their government and religion)?
    Scotty # wrote: »
    Regardless of race, religion, or culture - as long as it's not harming anyone else. It's that simple.

    The culture represented by the burka (even the whole point of the burka itself) is damaging to society.
    Scotty # wrote: »
    What on earth gives you the right or anyone the right, to tell people what they can and can't wear as long as they are not harming anyone? (I don't actually want an answer to that - no doubt you'll come up with some kind of logic where it's not OK for Islam to tell people how to dress but it is OK for their government.)

    The burka isn't islamic, its cultural.


  • #1225
    pH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    You dont think the entire notion of the burka is wrong? Its an insane solution to a problem that doesn't seem to exist outside of the countries which say your have to wear the burka. Its as oppressive a garment as medieval chastity belts and allowing propagates the oppressive culture that requires it to subjugate its women.

    This is a good point. Take a group of women who we know are free to choose to wear whatever they want. Let's take Irish adult women.

    There are about 1.5 million of them (free from religious or cultural oppression to go around all day with a bag over their heads).

    Of this 1.5+ million women, how many choose too wear a burka - the answer is zero - none.

    So when I see 1.5 million women (who have a choice) and none choose it, I'm extremely sceptical of any claims which point to a woman in a burka who is obviously under a pressure to wear it and saying "Oh it's her free choice".


  • #1226
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    To those that are against the ban, why would women freely choose to wear something whose purpose is to subjugate them?

    (I'm not taking sides, still on the fence)


  • #1227
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    I'm religious and support the ban
    liamw wrote: »
    To those that are against the ban, why would women freely choose to wear something whose purpose is to subjugate them?

    (I'm not taking sides, still on the fence)

    this would be an easy question to answer if anybody bothered to ask them what their opinion was.


  • #1228
    cavedave
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,164 ✭✭✭cavedave


    I'm religious and support the ban
    pH

    Of this 1.5+ million women, how many choose too wear a burka - the answer is zero - none.

    So when I see 1.5 million women (who have a choice) and none choose it, I'm extremely sceptical of any claims which point to a woman in a burka who is obviously under a pressure to wear it and saying "Oh it's her free choice".

    I know one Irish woman who wears the burka out of choice. She converted to Islam in her twenties and decided she wanted to wear it. My impression is her husband is not overly keen on her wearing it but that he feels he cannot stop her.

    My grandmother would not go to mass without a scarf on. If you see those old pictures of Peig Sayers she is nearly wearing a burka.

    What is the situation with my beekeeping outfit. If I have to go capture a swarm in a public place will I not be allowed wear it?


  • #1229
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    pH wrote: »
    Of this 1.5+ million women, how many choose too wear a burka - the answer is zero - none.
    Why would they? The Burka is not part of their culture. As far as I know Irish nuns do not feel oppressed about wearing the habit? Would they like to be told by the state that they can no longer wear them?
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Isn't the burka itself an item of clothing that people wear because their culture tells them too
    So what? So is the kilt but no one is looking to have that banned.
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    The culture represented by the burka (even the whole point of the burka itself) is damaging to society.
    How is the Islam culture any more dangerous than any other culture? Just because a handful of extremist commit crimes in the name of Islam does not make the whole lot loons.
    liamw wrote: »
    To those that are against the ban, why would women freely choose to wear something whose purpose is to subjugate them?
    Clearly not all burka wearers feel that way. Many burka wearers are actually women who have converted to Islam and have freely chosen to live by it's customs. This right has now been taken from them - this is the part I find so unfair.


  • #1230
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    cavedave wrote: »
    What is the situation with my beekeeping outfit. If I have to go capture a swarm in a public place will I not be allowed wear it?
    It would fall under 'safety & health' I presume.

    The face can be covered for safety, health, sport, art, festival/carnival/party.

    The face can not be covered for religion, tradition, culture, or any other reason.

    Also, the police have been told they can not force anyone to remove their burka. No enforcement allowed anywhere near Mosques either. I actually don't believe anyone will ever be charged under this law.


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  • #1231
    pH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    cavedave wrote: »
    I know one Irish woman who wears the burka out of choice. She converted to Islam in her twenties and decided she wanted to wear it. My impression is her husband is not overly keen on her wearing it but that he feels he cannot stop her.

    I find this anecdote unconvincing, it amazes me you have this much intimate knowledge of a Muslim couple, especially one devout enough for her to be wearing a burka. How much time did you spend alone with her to check if what her husband was saying was true?
    My grandmother would not go to mass without a scarf on. If you see those old pictures of Peig Sayers she is nearly wearing a burka.

    Sorry but:

    peig.jpg

    =/=

    burka1c.jpg

    What is the situation with my beekeeping outfit. If I have to go capture a swarm in a public place will I not be allowed wear it?

    My understanding is that a bee-keeping outfit is perfectly fine in the context of beekeeping, but not for walking around Paris in, this has been debated on this thread, so how the French implement the law remains to be seen.


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