Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Burka ban

1…3738404243…138

Comments

  • #1172
    celtictiger32
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,488 ✭✭✭celtictiger32


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Do you believe that governments should have the power to dictate what garments people can and cannot wear?[/QUOTE]


    when it comes to this yes i do, didnt certain local councils in england ban the wearing of hoodies. well the burka is a far more enflamatory piece of attire imo


  • #1173
    MrVestek
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,288 ✭✭✭MrVestek


    We're all living on Animal Farm with the pigs telling us what we can / cannot wear.

    That people think it's ok to allow their civil liberties to be shat all over like this - and will it themselves - seriously disturbs me.

    Person 1 is forced to wear a garment made out of cheese as has their ancestors for centuries and they hate it. This person is oppressed.

    Person 2 LOVES wearing garments made out of cheese but due to a new cheese-hating law they are told if they wear their lovely cheesy garments then they can be fined or imprisoned. This person is oppressed.

    How can people not see that it's the same thing regardless of the circumstances behind the conditions of which these people are wearing their 'cheese garments' in the first place?


  • #1174
    pH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    Achilles wrote: »
    We're all living on Animal Farm with the pigs telling us what we can / cannot wear.

    That people think it's ok to allow their civil liberties to be shat all over like this - and will it themselves - seriously disturbs me.

    Person 1 is forced to wear a garment made out of cheese as has their ancestors for centuries and they hate it. This person is oppressed.

    Person 2 LOVES wearing garments made out of cheese but due to a new cheese-hating law they are told if they wear their lovely cheesy garments then they can be fined or imprisoned. This person is oppressed.

    How can people not see that it's the same thing regardless of the circumstances behind the conditions of which these people are wearing their 'cheese garments' in the first place?

    I'm still waiting for someone throwing around the word 'oppressed' in relation to the burka ban to answer - if they also consider drug users and visiting US gun-nuts 'oppressed'?


  • #1175
    MrVestek
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,288 ✭✭✭MrVestek


    pH wrote: »
    I'm still waiting for someone throwing around the word 'oppressed' in relation to the burka ban to answer - if they also consider drug users and visiting US gun-nuts 'oppressed'?

    Drug users would probably consider themselves oppressed yes. I also don't see anything wrong with owning a gun if it can be done responsibily as a method of target practise etc.

    Unfortunately human nature breeds over indulgence and such activities can be taken to the extreme by a small monitory making them bad things to do in everyone else's eyes... very like extremists in the Muslim community forcing women to wear burkas.


  • #1176
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    pH wrote: »
    I'm still waiting for someone throwing around the word 'oppressed' in relation to the burka ban to answer...
    Many French politicians and the pro ban members on here are using the "freeing of oppression" as justification for the ban. Hence the word is being thrown around a lot.

    Last week, by law, they were free to choose. This week, by law, they are not. Are they any less oppressed now? You decide.


  • Advertisement
  • #1177
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Scotty # wrote: »
    Robin you are clearly in favour of the ban because you feel it frees women from oppression.
    Yes, that's one of the reasons. There are others, but you've engaged with none of them and instead simply repeat your claim that passing a law that allows women to wear anything save the burka is as oppressive as forcing them to wear it -- a position which is trivially false.


  • #1178
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Morbert wrote: »
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdmyiVlwEDU&feature=related

    An illuminating Newsnight piece and debate on the nature and history of the burka.
    ...which includes Sam Harris coming out -- shock, horror -- in support of the ban.

    Was expecting him to facepalm at the end of the piece :)


  • #1179
    pH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    Achilles wrote: »
    Drug users would probably consider themselves oppressed yes. I also don't see anything wrong with owning a gun if it can be done responsibily as a method of target practise etc.

    Unfortunately human nature breeds over indulgence and such activities can be taken to the extreme by a small monitory making them bad things to do in everyone else's eyes... very like extremists in the Muslim community forcing women to wear burkas.

    So you're saying that women in France who want to wear a burka are being oppressed in exactly the same way we oppress an American who moves here and would like to own handguns?
    Scotty # wrote: »
    Many French politicians and the pro ban members on here are using the "freeing of oppression" as justification for the ban. Hence the word is being thrown around a lot.

    Last week, by law, they were free to choose. This week, by law, they are not. Are they any less oppressed now? You decide.

    Less oppressed - because I don't consider not being able to wear a burka as oppression - but you still avoid the question - is it oppression not to be able to own firearms in Ireland as they do in America?


  • #1180
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    pH wrote: »
    is it oppression not to be able to own firearms in Ireland as they do in America?
    Well not for me as I have no desire to own a handgun. I do know though that when the handgun legislation was changed recently many handgun owners were outraged. Did they feel oppressed? I don't know - you'd have to ask them.

    If I were a handgun owner and suddenly the law was changed to make it illegal to own a handgun then I would certainly feel oppressed, yes. Incidentally the law was changed in an effort to combat gun crime. But guess how many people have been shot in Ireland with legally held hand guns*....?? That's right - ZERO!! Another example of a government that hasn't a clue how to handle things.

    Anyway... this gun laws are formed with public safety in mind. If the burka was a deadly weapon the ban would be justifiable. But it isn't, so it's not!

    *excluding those by the armed forces


  • #1181
    celtictiger32
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,488 ✭✭✭celtictiger32


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    just reading through the thread on the burka ban in belgium , france etc. and wondering what peoples thoughts were on banning the burka here in ireland???


  • Advertisement
  • #1182
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    I'm religious and support the ban
    pH wrote: »
    So you're saying that women in France who want to wear a burka are being oppressed in exactly the same way we oppress an American who moves here and would like to own handguns?



    Less oppressed - because I don't consider not being able to wear a burka as oppression - but you still avoid the question - is it oppression not to be able to own firearms in Ireland as they do in America?

    Unless you can kill someone with a burkha its really not a good comparrison


  • #1183
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,827 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    sensibleken wrote: »
    Unless you can kill someone with a burkha its really not a good comparrison

    Is it oppressive that pyramid schemes are illegal in Ireland?


  • #1184
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Is it oppressive that pyramid schemes are illegal in Ireland?

    Is it oppressive that monkeys cant own mobiles?


  • #1185
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,827 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    sensibleken wrote: »
    Is it oppressive that monkeys cant own mobiles?

    Dont answer a question with a question, a nonsensical question at that. Monkeys and cars is not analogous to humans and pyramid schemes.


  • #1186
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Is it oppressive that pyramid schemes are illegal in Ireland?
    I'd imagine that libertarians would think so :)

    Speaking of which, part one of Atlas Shrugged is due to hit the cinemas this week:

    http://www.npr.org/2011/04/12/135171116/the-rampant-rise-of-ayn-rand-o-mania


  • #1187
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Dont answer a question with a question, a nonsensical question at that. Monkeys and cars is not analogous to humans and pyramid schemes.

    you see this is why i don't bother debating with you.
    Im going for pizza and beer instead


  • #1188
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Dont answer a question with a question, a nonsensical question at that. Monkeys and cars is not analogous to humans and pyramid schemes.

    And a comparison between a pyramid scheme and a veil is rather weak at best.


    (And why do people keep going on about libertarians? Its getting a tad annoying.)


  • #1189
    Moomoo1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭Moomoo1


    I'm religious and support the ban
    interesting article I came across

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1674970.stm

    two women a week die as a result of domestic violence

    one woman every 20 seconds is a victim

    this is in UK but no reason to believe France is different

    so instead of tackling that we go after a tiny minority who wear headscarves because they _might_ be being abused? That's hypocrisy.


  • #1190
    Moomoo1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭Moomoo1


    I'm religious and support the ban
    sensibleken wrote: »
    you see this is why i don't bother debating with you.
    Im going for pizza and beer instead

    I think I debated with him last summer, long enough for him to admit that the real reason behind his opinions is a belief that 'OMG those muslims will come here and change our way of life!!!' and there is a 'culture' out there that is about to 'infringe' on ours and 'dominate' ours.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67138642&postcount=768
    (quote near the top)

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67158498&postcount=780 (quote near the bottom)

    I spent ages on that debate, won't be making that mistake again. But it just shows that most people who pretend they are doing this out of concern of women being abused have as their real reason a phobia of Islam.


  • #1191
    Moomoo1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭Moomoo1


    I'm religious and support the ban
    robindch wrote: »
    While the two situations are not entirely similar, it's worth comparing the results from the UK whose successive governments have failed to address the problem of religious separatism and supremacists (and has produced a reasonable crop of home-grown terrorists) versus France which has clearly stated the supremacy of state law over religion (and hasn't really produced any terrorists to speak of).

    much of the terrorism and radicalisation happened after the Iraq war and the role the UK played in it.

    France, if you remember, stayed out.


  • Advertisement
  • #1192
    Moomoo1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭Moomoo1


    I'm religious and support the ban
    robindch wrote: »
    Are you genuinely suggesting that the French -- by banning exactly the kind of oppressive marker that you seem to object to -- have taken the first steps to murdering islamic believers in large numbers? :confused:

    yes. It's a measure that's directed against a particular section of society. A particular section of society that's already suffering from discrimination.

    As I've said above, there are plenty of battered, abused women in France. Some are even murdered by their partners. Not just Muslims - men abuse women in all cultures. So why focus attention on banning the burqa, a measure that will benefit a small subset of a small number of burqa wearers in France and not on domestic violence in general? Smacks of hypocricy, as I've said.


  • #1193
    Moomoo1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭Moomoo1


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Scotty # wrote: »
    Oppression has nothing to do with it. The ban is about "protecting French values" according to Sarkozy.


    thank you. It's a typical trick that people in power utilise: make the proles hate each other and fight with each other over who wears what garment and who worships what bearded man in the sky and who waves what colour flag - and whilst they are at it the rich and powerful have a great life at the proles' expense.


  • #1194
    valm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 62 ✭✭valm


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    I think the whole burka thing can be summed up. I would not walk down the stree in Saudi Arabia in a boob tube, pair of shorts and drinking a bottle of Bud. I would respect the country I was in and abide by their ways. So the bottom line I am not going to Saudi because I don't want to appear disrespectful to their culture and laws their way of life is not for me. So go where the lifestyle and culture suits your needs and do not expect other countries to conform to your wishes. The most important fact is revealing the face is for the safety and security of all.


  • #1195
    celtictiger32
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,488 ✭✭✭celtictiger32


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Moomoo1 wrote: »
    I think I debated with him last summer, long enough for him to admit that the real reason behind his opinions is a belief that 'OMG those muslims will come here and change our way of life!!!' and there is a 'culture' out there that is about to 'infringe' on ours and 'dominate' ours.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67138642&postcount=768
    (quote near the top)

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67158498&postcount=780 (quote near the bottom)

    I spent ages on that debate, won't be making that mistake again. But it just shows that most people who pretend they are doing this out of concern of women being abused have as their real reason a phobia of Islam.

    i think people are against it for both those reasons more or less except i wouldnt exactly call it a phobia. i think a lot of the islamic community try to impose their culture for instance there was a call by several of them not so long ago to have sharia law (i think this is the correct term apologies if not) imposed on all muslims in ireland. the likes of this only alienates them and their culture to the rest of us, i dont think you would find many catholic, christian or whatever going to muslim countries and demanding that they should be governed but their own religious laws etc. same applies to the burka, a woman can be arrested for her choice of clothing in certain countries, and most we'll just say irish women respect these laws and cultures when they visit these countries if not just dont visit them so the same should apply here if a country has banned the burka that is their law so the muslim community should abide and respect that law or just dont be there.


  • #1196
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    I'm religious and support the ban
    robindch wrote: »
    I'd imagine that libertarians would think so :)

    Speaking of which, part one of Atlas Shrugged is due to hit the cinemas this week:

    http://www.npr.org/2011/04/12/135171116/the-rampant-rise-of-ayn-rand-o-mania

    Directed by and starring some guy that was in US teen drama One Tree Hill.

    :eek: <---- will have to do as there is no *cringe* smiley.
    :(

    Edit: Seemed like I judged too soon. Apparently the screenplay is written by the guy that co-produced the film masterpiece that was Dog Soldiers and has the writing credit of 'Cemetery Gates' - "A genetically mutated Tasmanian Devil is "liberated" by two eco-activists and set loose in a woodland cemetery." under his belt.


  • #1197
    valm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 62 ✭✭valm


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    I fully agree. Comform to our way of life or stay at home. Do not insist we accept your culture when you are in our country. We must be careful how we handle cultures from other countres. Remember the issue some months back where a gentleman came to Ireland with his wife and children (or he may have married an Irish girl and had children). He has a wife and children here anyway but as it is the culture in his home country to have more than one wife he is fighting through the courts to bring his other three wives and their children here. It does not bear thinking about. This is bigamy in Ireland. I have been waiting the outcome of this case but have heard nothing. I just hope he is not entitled to legal aid. Did anyone else follow this story? what was the outcome? Last heard the ase was adjourned.


  • #1198
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Stercus Accidit wrote: »
    I agree, the moral qualms of a society shouldn't be imposed by law.

    Its a slippery slope.

    Wrong..It should be imposed by law as they are living in our society in ireland so they have to abide by our laws of the land and they will when this law comes into effect. if you go over to their country as a woman then you will be told to cover your face full stop.


  • #1199
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    valm wrote: »
    I think the whole burka thing can be summed up. I would not walk down the stree in Saudi Arabia in a boob tube, pair of shorts and drinking a bottle of Bud. I would respect the country I was in and abide by their ways.
    Two wrongs don't make a right. Saudi Arabia does not give women a choice, and now, neither does France! What's the difference?

    ALSO... these are French people! The might be of African Arab ethnicity but many of them are 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation. They did not fly in last month. They are French, born and bred.


  • #1200
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    zenno wrote: »
    if you go over to their country
    Their country is FRANCE!


  • Advertisement
  • #1201
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Scotty # wrote: »
    Two wrongs don't make a right. Saudi Arabia does not give women a choice, and now, neither does France! What's the difference?

    ALSO... these are French people! The might be of African Arab ethnicity but many of them are 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation. They did not fly in last month. They are French, born and bred.

    It doesn't matter the case being said and talked about in european governments at the moment about this issue will come into effect and they "whether they be french or not" they will have to abide by the new law. the government of ireland will decide this and i'm sure it will happen so in that case when it does, then no wearing of burka's will be allowed. as I said they will have to respect our laws.


Advertisement