Isn't it fabulous to see democracy in action

Ban Ki Moon · 10-04-2011 12:55PM #1

Voters in Iceland rejected a second plan to repay debts to Britain and the Netherlands from a bank crash, partial referendum results showed, and the prime minister said economic and political chaos could follow.

'The worst option was chosen. The vote has split the nation in two,' Prime Minister Johanna Sigurdardottir told state television, saying it was fairly clear the 'no' side had won.

With around 169,000 votes in the referendum counted, state television said almost 60% had rejected the agreement, based on results from five out of six voting districts.

Iceland has 230,000 voters but the turnout was not immediately available.

The prime minister, who had predicted a no vote would cause economic uncertainty for at least a year or two, did not say whether the government planned to resign.

'We must do all we can to prevent political and economic chaos as a result of this outcome,'she said.

The debt was incurred when Britain and the Netherlands compensated their nationals who lost savings in online 'Icesave' accounts owned by Landsbanki, one of three Icelandic banks that collapsed in late 2008.

Icelandic lawmakers in February backed the repayment plan agreed with creditors in December but the president refused to sign the bill, triggering the vote.

Iceland rejected an earlier Icesave repayment blueprint in a referendum last year.

Many Icelanders say taxpayers should not have to bail out irresponsible banks.

CommuterIE · 10-04-2011 01:29PM

Hmmm, I really don't think the Icelandic electorate quite understand the implications of such a move (possible sanctions, economic isolation etc)

And if they do, they have some balls!

partyatmygaff · 10-04-2011 01:33PM

Cue the inevitable "Let's default" posts...

ejmaztec · 10-04-2011 01:35PM

The Dutch and the British will invade and steal all their stuff.

reprazant · 10-04-2011 01:40PM

You seem to have left out the rest of the article for some reason OP

Dispute may go to European Court
The dispute over repayment has soured relations between the small North Atlantic island nation and the two other countries.

It may now be solved in a European court rather than in bilateral talks - a solution that may take several years and that some economists say would be much costlier.

'It is clear that we have reached the end of the negotiation road,' Finance Minister Steingrimur Sigfusson said.

Ms Sigurdardottir said Iceland would now defend its case before the court of the European trade body overseeing Iceland's cooperation with the EU, the EFTA Surveillance Authority (ESA).

Economic Affairs Minister Arni Arnasson said he would be in touch next week with ESA, which said last year, in a first stage in legal proceedings that Iceland should pay compensation to Icesave depositors.

Policymakers and economists have said solving the Icesave issue would help Iceland, whose economy fell into deep recession after its banks failed, get back into foreign credit markets to fund itself.

That is a condition for it to remove controls on capital flows it imposed in 2008 to stabilise a tumbling currency.

The controls have left an estimated equivalent to a quarter of Iceland's gross domestic product in the hands of foreign investors, many of whom are expected to want to pull out when controls are lifted.

Ratings agencies follow the vote closely. Moody's has said it may lower its credit rating on Iceland in case of a 'no'.

Disappointment over referendum result

Britain's Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander said he was disappointed that Icelanders had again rejected the debt deal, adding that the issue would now probably go to the courts.

'It is obviously disappointing that it seems that the people of Iceland have rejected what was a negotiated settlement,' Mr Alexander told BBC television.

'Of course we respect the will of the Icelandic people in this matter and we are going to have to now go and talk to the international partners with whom we work, not least the government of the Netherlands. It now looks like this process will end up in the courts,' he said.

Dutch Finance Minister Jan Kees de Jager said he was very disappointed that Icelanders had rejected the deal.

'I am very disappointed that the Icesave agreement did not get through. This is not good for Iceland, nor for the Netherlands. The time for negotiations is over. Iceland remains obliged to repay. The issue is now for the courts to decide,' Mr de Jager said in a statement.

He added that the Netherlands will consult with Britain about taking further steps.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0410/iceland.html

dlofnep · 10-04-2011 01:41PM

Iceland should be renamed to Ballsland. I salute them.

Biggins · 10-04-2011 01:44PM

They votes twice now on the same issue - now there is talk of the people being possibly made to vote again!
(BBC mentioned this alone)
Seems someone is not happy till they get an alternative vote. Sound familiar?

Democracy in action fairly - that is until someone/some organisation wants ye to vote different - then they will keep having you to vote till they get their way!

Killer Pigeon · 10-04-2011 01:52PM

Then Greece, then Ireland, then Portugal and possibly Spain - although I doubt they'll vote on whether to default or not, they'll be forced.

rossie1977 · 10-04-2011 02:19PM

CommuterIE wrote: »

Hmmm, I really don't think the Icelandic electorate quite understand the implications of such a move (possible sanctions, economic isolation etc)

And if they do, they have some balls!

economic isolation lmfao, you really think that, when someone declares bankruptcy are they then economically isolated for the rest of their lives...........

iceland have stood up and said no and fair f**ks to them, the ordinary people will not pay for mistakes they had no part of

Dinner · 10-04-2011 02:25PM

Biggins wrote: »

They votes twice now on the same issue - now there is talk of the people being possibly made to vote again!
(BBC mentioned this alone)
Seems someone is not happy till they get an alternative vote. Sound familiar?

Democracy in action fairly - that is until someone/some organisation wants ye to vote different - then they will keep having you to vote till they get their way!

It was a renegotiated deal...
Does that not matter at all to you? Or did you just want to have a dig about Lisbon?

Also can you link to where you read about a third vote?
The BBC article says that the Finance Minister seems to have ruled out a third vote.

Finance Minister Steingrimur Sigfusson appeared to rule out a third attempt to persuade voters to accept a repayment deal.

"I think we're getting a very clear sign from this referendum, that further negotiations are ruled out. No use in trying that again."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13022524

...

Wolfe Tone · 10-04-2011 02:34PM

Fcuk sake let us vote too.

Biggins · 10-04-2011 02:55PM

Dinner wrote: »

It was a renegotiated deal...
Does that not matter at all to you? Or did you just want to have a dig about Lisbon?...

Well clearly you missed my point ENTIRELY - the point being that no matter who or what ever org' gets the vote they want - others will try to make them/us/whomever vote again till they too get what they want.
In other words, democracy like others political systems, is open to abuse as and when others see fit according to their own agenda.

...But you missed all that so you could just rant on about Lisbon.
Still got a chip on the shoulder there about it? You missed the point completely.

As for the possible third vote - it was mentioned a few days ago by a BBC site - I can't find the link at present but BBC's posting as shown above that went on to further answer that possibility mentioned by stating in retort to the earlier one "...Finance Minister Steingrimur Sigfusson appeared to rule out a third attempt to persuade voters to accept a repayment deal...."
It was a discussion between politicians at the time and Sigfusson came out and stated his case in answer to it.

starbelgrade · 10-04-2011 03:04PM

It'd be nice for us to get a chance to do the same thing - ie., vote on the matter.

But there's fuck all democracy in this country. We've replaced one bunch of morons with another bunch of morons who will do nothing for the next 5 years except offer up the country's arse to be raped by those we supposedly owe money to.

Dinner · 10-04-2011 03:08PM

Biggins wrote: »

Well clearly you missed my point ENTIRELY - the point being that no matter who or what ever org' gets the vote they want - others will try to make them/us/whomever vote again till they too get what they want.
In other words, democracy like others political systems, is open to abuse as and when others see fit according to their own agenda.

Are you honestly saying that even a renegotiation of the terms of the repayment is not grounds for having another vote?

The deal that was rejected first time round was a 5.5% interest rate with repayments made over 8 years, this rejected deal was 3.3 and 3% rate paid back over 30 years. As far as I am concerned that is grounds enough for another vote. That is of course unless the question put to them was "Do you ever want to repay the money ever, regardless of circumstances and terms?". But It's unlikely that that was the wording.

Biggins wrote: »

...But you missed all that so you could just rant on about Lisbon.
Still got a chip on the shoulder there about it? You missed the point completely.

Oh please... "Sound familiar?" accompanied by an over simplification of the situation was clearly a dig at the second Lisbon vote.

CommuterIE · 10-04-2011 03:13PM

rossie1977 wrote: »

economic isolation lmfao, you really think that, when someone declares bankruptcy are they then economically isolated for the rest of their lives...........

iceland have stood up and said no and fair f**ks to them, the ordinary people will not pay for mistakes they had no part of

They are only digging themselves a bigger hole by doing this... and yes, unfortunately either way the 'ordinary' people are going to pay the price... this will just add to that

Biggins · 10-04-2011 03:17PM

Dinner wrote: »

Are you honestly saying that even a renegotiation of the terms of the repayment is not grounds for having another vote?

The deal that was rejected first time round was a 5.5% interest rate with repayments made over 8 years, this rejected deal was 3.3 and 3% rate paid back over 30 years. As far as I am concerned that is grounds enough for another vote. That is of course unless the question put to them was "Do you ever want to repay the money ever, regardless of circumstances and terms?". But It's unlikely that that was the wording.

..........Oh please... "Sound familiar?" accompanied by an over simplification of the situation was clearly a dig at the second Lisbon vote.

Jeeze, you still don't get it. :rolleyes:

I mentioned ""Sound familiar?" etc as an example as to how others - NOW GET THIS BIT - REGARDLESS OF WHATEVER AGENDA, ORGS OR WHATEVER THE FCUK YOU HAVE A CHIP ON THE SHOULDER ABOUT - that such others can abuse any system in order to get their way.
That no matter what ever form of voting system is used in order to pursue an agenda, there is no fully fair method as of yet that has proved fully 100% adequate.

Now will you please shut the hell up about Lisbon for your CLEARLY missing the point yet again!

I'm addressing the principle point of democracy being considered 'fair".
Your just off on a god knows what about Lisbon!

Oranage2 · 10-04-2011 03:23PM

The banking monetary system is the real problem, money is printed out of thin air and then interest is aided so the world owes trillions of trillions or €$£¥ and if we handed in all the money we still would have to pay the interest with money that doesnt exist!

RichieC · 10-04-2011 03:25PM

CommuterIE wrote: »

Hmmm, I really don't think the Icelandic electorate quite understand the implications of such a move (possible sanctions, economic isolation etc)

:rolleyes:

yea it's a secret..

Dinner · 10-04-2011 03:29PM

Biggins wrote: »

Jeeze, you still don't get it. :rolleyes:

I mentioned ""Sound familiar?" etc as an example as to how others - NOW GET THIS BIT - REGARDLESS OF WHATEVER AGENDA, ORGS OR WHATEVER THE FCUK YOU HAVE A CHIP ON THE SHOULDER ABOUT - that such others can abuse any system in order to get their way.
That no matter what ever form of voting system is used in order to pursue an agenda, there is no fully fair method as of yet that has proved adequate.

Now will you please shut the hell up about Lisbon for your CLEARLY missing the point yet again!

Oh shit! a roll-eyes smiley, and caps lock and bold!! You really mean business. Ok, lets leave Lisbon out of it, since you weren't referring to it in any way.

Now my question, if you would be ever so kind, is a renegotiated deal not valid grounds for another referendum?

How can it be counted as abusing the system, when there is a massive difference between the two deals. You're right, the politicians do want to get their own way. That's what politicians do. So when they were rejected they went and changed it to see if the renegotiated deal would be more appealing to the public. That, to me, is how democracy is supposed to work:

Politicians draw up deal -> people reject -> politicians renegotiate deal -> people reject

And surely the rejection of this vote does show that the current method is adequate. The Icelandics didn't like this deal either. So they voted no. Happy days, lets rejoice in the sunlight of democracy!

And please try avoid the use of roll eyes and caps lock. You're making yourself seem hysterical :pac:

SuperInfinity · 10-04-2011 03:45PM

Democracy is just something the US government made up so they can go to war with any one of the poor countries who don't have the resources nor will to create formal country-wide elections. And if they do the US would just say it was all corrupt... even though the US themselves have been accused of clear fraud in the Gore-Bush election of 2000.

The people you vote for are controlled. What if like in that Simpsons episode you only have two alien candidates to choose from? What if the whole system is corrupt from the outside in like Ireland? On the other hand there are many examples (especially throughout history) of nations that are very happy with their leadership without what the US has in modern times called democracy.

Maybe democracy has its merits, but most sensible people realize it's not the absurd "holy grail" of happy nations the US make it out to be.

Biggins · 10-04-2011 03:45PM

Dinner wrote: »

Oh shit! a roll-eyes smiley, and caps lock and bold!! You really mean business. Ok, lets leave Lisbon out of it, since you weren't referring to it in any way.

Now my question, if you would be ever so kind, is a renegotiated deal not valid grounds for another referendum?

How can it be counted as abusing the system, when there is a massive difference between the two deals. You're right, the politicians do want to get their own way. That's what politicians do. So when they were rejected they went and changed it to see if the renegotiated deal would be more appealing to the public. That, to me, is how democracy is supposed to work:

Politicians draw up deal -> people reject -> politicians renegotiate deal -> people reject

And surely the rejection of this vote does show that the current method is adequate. The Icelandics didn't like this deal either. So they voted no. Happy days, lets rejoice in the sunlight of democracy!

And please try avoid the use of roll eyes and caps lock. You're making yourself seem hysterical :pac:

I'm conversing with someone that wants to go off with their own agenda and a chip on their shoulder to boot.
I'm sticking to the basic contention of the op and his main point about democracy being 'fair'. If you want to discuss the in's and out's of the deal as per other previous posts - try other sections such as the economic principle based ones.

I'm not dragging this thread off point so you can go off on a self-indulgent rant. Bye.

K-9 · 10-04-2011 03:50PM

Think its only the Brits they owe money too so it's okay.

Rabies · 10-04-2011 03:58PM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Fcuk sake let us vote too.

Why vote on something you already have got?
Too late.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 10-04-2011 04:04PM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Fcuk sake let us vote too.

Hmm... I think I'll sit back and wait and see what happens to Iceland before I go along with this.

steddyeddy · 10-04-2011 05:10PM

I love the icelandic people, great place and very welcoming people. They have a massive sense of community and im glad that they have a democracy. Very few people were responsible for the losses in Iceland and the people have decided that very few people should have to pay for them.

AskMyChocolate · 10-04-2011 05:29PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Cue the inevitable "Let's default" posts...

They are not defaulting. They are repudiating debts for which they have absolutely no responsibility. Unlike us, they are not prepared to thank rapists and then offer to pay to clean the curtains they wiped their dicks on before they left.

hatz7 · 10-04-2011 10:30PM

Iceland will be able to buy some valuable time in the courts.
A case of this magnitude is going to be one delicate operation.
They will have to pay the money back,
But it is the right course of action,

Will they have to start giving out the names of the bondholders? somebody has to sign for them, somebody has to own them.

Some cool court case,

I bet ya the solicitors from the tribunals here will be sending out the cv's to the British and Dutch banks, another gravy train fot the legal profession if ever there was one

phasers · 10-04-2011 10:40PM

this is probably a stupid question, but i've always wondered... What would happen if all this international debt was just written off? This money doesn't actually exist a lot of the time anyway, which is why i've away struggled to understand the whole bailout thing...

dabestman1 · 10-04-2011 10:43PM

Iceland voted twice on the same issue, deja vu nice treaty.
Ballsy move, we'll never get a referendum.

Absurdum · 10-04-2011 10:56PM

they should spark up that volcano Ejajakafukkyouall thing again to piss off the rest of Europe again, then flaunt their ultra-beautiful women at the rest of us to rub it in

sock puppet · 10-04-2011 10:58PM

Biggins wrote: »

They votes twice now on the same issue - now there is talk of the people being possibly made to vote again!
(BBC mentioned this alone)
Seems someone is not happy till they get an alternative vote. Sound familiar?

Democracy in action fairly - that is until someone/some organisation wants ye to vote different - then they will keep having you to vote till they get their way!

You're absolutely right. Lets ban divorce immediately. The people spoke after all.

Isn't it fabulous to see democracy in action

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