a4 training

mumfordandsons · 04-04-2011 06:31PM #1

HI,

quick question mainly to a4 please. i started racing again this year , due sickness ect , lack of any good training. can i ask a4 how much per week or per month from say dec in km would you have done.
just trying to compare to my own. any information would be great.

also can i ask does anyone use any stuff like maximuscle or others to help them on bike. thanks.

and last question. -- for any a4 in sundays race that finished close to winner what was your aver speed.
thanks

Rocketpocket · 04-04-2011 07:09PM

i was in the successfull break sunday,it averaged 34.8kph. Got in a break in saturdays race with some A3s untill we were caught by scratch on last lap,averaged 40kph.

Ryaner · 04-04-2011 08:46PM

Second group on Sunday and avg of 34.1.

Training is more about quality than quantity. You can have a week of 20+ hours and get less benefit than 2-3 properly hard sessions of 2 hours each, at least for racing. It is a different beast if you are training for endurance.

Lumen · 05-04-2011 06:24AM

The first rule of training is...no one talks about training.

Last spring for A4 I was doing relatively little, maybe four hours a week of sustained intensity including the races. It worked fine as the A4 races were so short, although I wasn't close to winning anything. Then I did a couple of long hard sportives (160km+) and my knee exploded.

This year I'm taking the long view, coming back from six months off the bike with the knee problem. I have an A3 licence and I'm trying to build endurance for 100km races, so have worked up to about 10 hours a week of medium intensity (including commuting) with the odd burst. I'm dog slow but I can now do >100km without eating much so progress is being made.

Everyone's training needs are different.

If you're just trying to avoid getting dropped then look at your power/weight for the "hills", as you're unlikely to get dropped on the flat if you're paying attention.

If you actually intend to win races then there are no shortcuts unless you have a demon sprint or freakish natural ability.

Ignore nothing and be patient.

kennyb3 · 05-04-2011 09:09AM

Lumen wrote: »

The first rule of training is...no one talks about training.

What is the story with this actually? I ve noticed this seems to be a real thing in cycling, the logs here are quiet enough and the number of threads on new bikes, locks and so on always far outweighs training threads/discussions.

I was kind of half thinking about moving my log over here with the reasoning of trying to show newcomers what im doing, showing what its like for a newbie starting into A4 and hopefully charting some progress.

In saying that im very unscientific (dont use garmin or even a HRM at present), just go on feel. But i definitely think some newer riders see 37-40km/ph and think god i cant do that. On my own i cant break than 30km/ph for more than 50km yet found my first A4 race a piece of p'iss (well until i crashed:rolleyes:), although that was a flat handy one.

I guess it can depend on loads of factors whether you're able - age, weight, fitness, ability to suffer.

Diarmuid · 05-04-2011 09:32AM

kennyb3 wrote: »

What is the story with this actually? I ve noticed this seems to be a real thing in cycling, the logs here are quiet enough and the number of threads on new bikes, locks and so on always far outweighs training threads/discussions..

If you are training for A4's I don't think you really need to focus a lot on building a structured training plan with periodization , intervals etc. If you go for regular spins on your own in the mountains and climb at a good intensity then you'll have no problem in the A4 pack. It may not be the most time efficient but you'll get there. That probably won't work for A2's and up but worry about that when you get there.

shaungil · 05-04-2011 09:35AM

After getting a decent base and being reasonably fit I find interval and hill training the most important things.

Hills cause I'm a large unit (though a stone lighter than last year) and intervals to be able to go when the pace goes up or to be able to attack or try to bridge to an attack.

The best training for racing is training though so though I was averaging 11hrs a week including a lot of commuting it's now dropped as I race.

a lot of racing is fine if you are confident to get stuck in the middle of the bunch. But really the best way of knowing is to just give it a lash.

ROK ON · 05-04-2011 09:39AM

I guess why most experienced cyclists don't get Overawed by the speed of a race or event is that the fitness or effort put out by a rider is only some of the factors. Wind speed and direction, road surface, drafting etc all influence speed.
I was out for two hours last night the first hour into the wind was significantly slower than the second hour. However I worked much harder in the first hour.
Also riding in a pack allows any of us to sustain much higher speeds than we would normally be capable of on our own.

I have done only one race. It was my fastest ever 48k. I was dropped. However when I looked at my effort I spent the vast majority of the event between threshold and anaerobic. Despite my slowness I was not slacking - I was going as hard as i could in terms of effort. That is probably more important than average speed.

Lumen · 05-04-2011 09:42AM

kennyb3 wrote: »

In saying that im very unscientific (dont use garmin or even a HRM at present), just go on feel. But i definitely think some newer riders see 37-40km/ph and think god i cant do that. On my own i cant break than 30km/ph for more than 50km yet found my first A4 race a piece of p'iss

Numbers from my powermeter show that for a flattish course, cycling behind a big bunch at 39kph requires less power than cycling my own at 28kph.

Examples:

Paddy's day race, A3, 39.4kph, 167W (192W normalised). Epic wheelsucking.
Last Sunday easy spin: 27.8kph, 186W (201W normalised). Solo.

Now obviously there are surges in a race, and wheelsucking doesn't help much on the bumps, but it just goes to show the effect of drafting.

None of that matters if you actually intend to win because sooner or later you're going to get exposed to the wind.

As Diarmuid says, just ride your bike more.

kennyb3 · 05-04-2011 09:47AM

Diarmuid wrote: »

If you are training for A4's I don't think you really need to focus a lot on building a structured training plan with periodization , intervals etc. If you go for regular spins on your own in the mountains and climb at a good intensity then you'll have no problem in the A4 pack. It may not be the most time efficient but you'll get there. That probably won't work for A2's and up but worry about that when you get there.

I'd say this more describes what i do - 200km a week with one long spin of circa 80km alternating every week between alone and the club and then a couple of days of hill reps up howth mixed in with some commutes.

Beasty · 05-04-2011 09:48AM

kennyb3 wrote: »

What is the story with this actually? I ve noticed this seems to be a real thing in cycling, the logs here are quiet enough and the number of threads on new bikes, locks and so on always far outweighs training threads/discussions.

A few factors here

1. The A/R/T training logs have been running for much longer
2. You only get triathletes over there - here you get commuters, MTB'rs, racers, casual weekend cyclists etc
3. Most serious roadies are too busy spending time on their bikes to get into all this scientific stuff
4. Most of those who tend to maintain training logs over here have never actually won anything;)

Lumen · 05-04-2011 09:50AM

Beasty wrote: »

A few factors here

1. The A/R/T training logs have been running for much longer
2. You only get triathletes over there - here you get commuters, MTB'rs, racers, casual weekend cyclists etc
3. Most serious roadies are too busy spending time on their bikes to get into all this scientific stuff
4. Most of those who tend to maintain training logs over here have never actually won anything;)

5. Omerta.

kennyb3 · 05-04-2011 09:52AM

Lumen wrote: »

Numbers from my powermeter show that for a flattish course, cycling behind a big bunch at 39kph requires less power than cycling my own at 28kph.

Examples:

Paddy's day race, A3, 39.4kph, 167W (192W normalised). Epic wheelsucking.
Last Sunday easy spin: 27.8kph, 186W (201W normalised). Solo.

Good stuff, this is exactly what others out there considering starting need to see. This is exactly why i wanted to get into this.

What i mean is rewind a year ago and i didnt have a clue (i still dont compared to where i ll be this time next year) but i was overawed with looking at stats from races, even after doing a few club league races and finding them ok. I couldnt imagine doing an A4 race.

Having done an A4 race last week i ve seen that they arent half as tough as i imagined (bit early to say that really but anywho), so if anyone out there who is considering it just do it!

dare2be · 05-04-2011 09:53AM

What i have gathered in the short space of time over on this forum is

No need for a 'plan' - time in the saddle is the key
Take to the hills. I take it that this is more for endurance/power
Interval training for speed. Anybody got any specific interval sessions that a new A4 rider could learn from?
Join a club and enter club races
If not racing at the weekend, long moderate intensity rides. Would you recommend addition of hills and intervals into this ride?

When i take to the hills on my weekend spins i try to keep myself on the saddle and stand up on the bike of i can help it. When is the best time to stand and sit??

Diarmuid · 05-04-2011 09:59AM

dare2be wrote: »

What i have gathered in the short space of time over on this forum is

Riding the hills is interval training. Working going up, resting going down. How you do it: in the saddle /out of the saddle / high gear / low gear is mostly personal preference.
Just ride your bike and learn to suffer

(and join a club)

dare2be · 05-04-2011 10:05AM

Diarmuid wrote: »

Riding the hills is interval training. Working going up, resting going down. How you do it: in the saddle /out of the saddle / high gear / low gear is mostly personal preference.
Just ride your bike and learn to suffer (and join a club)

Ok, so what about sessions like taking a flat 1/2km stretch of road and really tearing it up x say 5reps? Sounds like speed work (similar to running)

But for all intensive purposes an A4 rider would not be worrying about this in his 1st season? Unless of course you have natural talent etc

kennyb3 · 05-04-2011 10:10AM

dare2be wrote: »

Ok, so what about sessions like taking a flat 1/2km stretch of road and really tearing it up x say 5reps? Sounds like speed work (similar to running)

But for all intensive purposes an A4 rider would not be worrying about this in his 1st season? Unless of course you have natural talent etc

Depends if they want to be able to make a break or not. A4 is boring enough at times from what i ve seen and read with wanting to sit in the bunch for the whole year.

Personally i plan on trying to get a few points if possible later in the season on the hillier courses. May be ambitious but you ve got to have goals

shaungil · 05-04-2011 10:17AM

Quote of the year so far I heard was from emma pooley paraphrasing Gary Player.

"The more I attack the luckier I get".

There seems to be a fear of going for it in a lot of races. What's the worst that can happen? Shelled out the back cos you're shattered? Still a good workout. Also though it's hard it's great fun. Most fun I had in a race was last Saturday being in a break for 5 laps with a few of the lads from here.

Must resurrect MoranA post Re A3 and A4 racing to hear what he thinks a month later.

Raam · 05-04-2011 10:21AM

shaungil wrote: »

Most fun I had in a race was last Saturday being in a break for 5 laps with a few of the lads from here.

Is that what you call it?

dare2be · 05-04-2011 10:21AM

kennyb3 wrote: »

Depends if they want to be able to make a break or not. A4 is boring enough at times from what i ve seen and read with wanting to sit in the bunch for the whole year.

Personally i plan on trying to get a few points if possible later in the season on the hillier courses. May be ambitious but you ve got to have goals

I hear what you are saying Kenny. I would want to compete also, why bother entering races otherwise. Altough tactics and knowing when to make a move would be where a more experienced rider would have the advantage.

Anyways, i joined a club and will enter their races to get a feel for the thing and take it from there.

Lumen · 05-04-2011 10:23AM

kennyb3 wrote: »

Depends if they want to be able to make a break or not. A4 is boring enough at times from what i ve seen and read with wanting to sit in the bunch for the whole year.

Indeed.

However, the effort varies massively between (a) different races (b) the front and the back of the same race.

I saw some stats (not my own) from the hilly Des Hanlon A3 which indicated 5.3W/kg for 10 minutes up the main climb. That's the sort of effort which would get you 800m off the front of a flat race on your own.

petethedrummer · 05-04-2011 10:34AM

shaungil wrote: »

"The more I attack the luckier I get".

She misquoted him: "The more I practice the luckier I get"

I believe he was a fairly conservative golfer. Arnold Palmer was the risk taker in those days.

shaungil · 05-04-2011 10:40AM

petethedrummer wrote: »

She misquoted him: "The more I practice the luckier I get"

I believe he was a fairly conservative golfer. Arnold Palmer was the risk taker in those days.

I knew his quote I thought she was paraphrasing. But is paraphrasing the correct term to use when you steal a quote and change it slightly?

His quote also aplies to cycling though.:)

Lumen · 05-04-2011 10:45AM

shaungil wrote: »

But is paraphrasing the correct term to use when you steal a quote and change it slightly?

No, that's misquoting.

fireblade001 · 05-04-2011 10:53AM

Reading between the lines here you seem to be asking are you doing enough, having I been doing enough and what can I expect speed wise from an A4 race. You may have raced on Sunday but were dropped and want to know what the gap in speed and quality is between you and being able to finish the race.

I would guess that most guys have been doing weekend rides of 2hrs on a Sat and 2½ - 4hrs on a Sunday with two or three session during the week (either gym, spinning, turbo session or road session).

As a rough target an A4 would need to be able to cover 40miles in aprprox. 2:30hrs, with a couple of hills/drags or 55miles in approx. 3:30hrs.
To complete and compete in an open road race, even A4, you need to be able to react and recover from intense efforts, and so you need to incorporate this into your training spins.

Allot depends on your current fitness, how many years cycling you’ve got in your legs and background.
I’ve purposely not include Zones or HR % as you’ve not mentioned that in your question.

I’d suggest going forward you built a training program roughly around something like this:
Mon Rest
Tues 1-1½ hrs with a couple efforts riding at 53x15/16.
OR a Club race or Club TT.
Wed Rest
Thurs 1-1½ hrs riding steady again with a few “hard efforts”
Fri Rest
Sat 2hrs
Sun 2-3hrs or A4 Race

shaungil · 05-04-2011 10:54AM

Yeah but I guess she knew she was misquoting him to her advantage.

what is it called when you always take something off topic though.....

dare2be · 05-04-2011 11:09AM

fireblade001 wrote: »

Reading between the lines here you seem to be asking are you doing enough, having I been doing enough and what can I expect speed wise from an A4 race. You may have raced on Sunday but were dropped and want to know what the gap in speed and quality is between you and being able to finish the race.

I would guess that most guys have been doing weekend rides of 2hrs on a Sat and 2½ - 4hrs on a Sunday with two or three session during the week (either gym, spinning, turbo session or road session).

As a rough target an A4 would need to be able to cover 40miles in aprprox. 2:30hrs, with a couple of hills/drags or 55miles in approx. 3:30hrs.
To complete and compete in an open road race, even A4, you need to be able to react and recover from intense efforts, and so you need to incorporate this into your training spins.

Allot depends on your current fitness, how many years cycling you’ve got in your legs and background.
I’ve purposely not include Zones or HR % as you’ve not mentioned that in your question.

I’d suggest going forward you built a training program roughly around something like this:
Mon Rest
Tues 1-1½ hrs with a couple efforts riding at 53x15/16.
OR a Club race or Club TT.
Wed Rest
Thurs 1-1½ hrs riding steady again with a few “hard efforts”
Fri Rest
Sat 2hrs
Sun 2-3hrs or A4 Race

Now we are talkin...

In relation to your 'rough target', i covered 101.8km in 3hrs 30 on Sunday which included a few drags and 1 hill (not sure of gradient but i could look at the Garmin profile i suppose). So, i would be comfortable in a bunch of A4 riders.

I started cycling this time last year after doing a duathlon so not much cycle time in the legs but my fitness would be good at present. Could i ask (excuse the ignorance here) what is the tuesday session 53x15/16. Gearing??

Thanks for the rough plan

Beasty · 05-04-2011 11:22AM

shaungil wrote: »

what is it called when you always take something off topic though.....

.... "banhammer time";)

chakattack · 05-04-2011 11:23AM

Last year I found regular commuting and training for sportives and riding them flat out at the weekends stood to me well when I finally took up league racing.

6 hours in the saddle trying to maintain a decent pace on your own and suffering in the wind, rain and hills is much better training than a relatively sedate 3-4 hr club spin where you're sheltered for alot of it and climbing at a moderate group pace.

Training has been more structured this year but I'm not sure if it's better.

kennyb3 · 05-04-2011 11:38AM

chakattack wrote: »

Last year I found regular commuting and training for sportives and riding them flat out at the weekends stood to me well when I finally took up league racing.

6 hours in the saddle trying to maintain a decent pace on your own and suffering in the wind, rain and hills is much better training than a relatively sedate 3-4 hr club spin where you're sheltered for alot of it and climbing at a moderate group pace.

Training has been more structured this year but I'm not sure if it's better.

I agree with this too i've found long spins on my own this year have made me alot stronger than sitting in a bunch club spin and only getting to take 2 to 4 decent turns over 70/80km. You get use to the wind and bit more suffering, and build good endurance. Although most a4 races are short enough.

But i still try to make it out with the group every 2nd weekend for the changes in pace at the end, picking up tips off older members and of course the social aspect of it.

For me though hill repeats are your only man once you ve a decent base, you learn to suffer and get a great workout.

Raam · 05-04-2011 11:39AM

kennyb3 wrote: »

... only getting to take 2 to 4 decent turns over 70/80km. You get use to the wind and bit more suffering, and build good endurance

What size group do you go out with?

a4 training

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